Is Torah Law?

[Blik]

I think about that because the "mechesiam" of forgiveness of sin bulls and goats has passed away with the sacrifice of Messiah of the Spotless Lamb of God on the cross.... Messiah/Jesus.... it was fulfilled not passed away.... not one yod....

But does not the New Testament say be holy because God is holy? what do you measure your holiness? The NT days to not add or take away from the Word of God.... Which Books are God breathed? Has we will lay down our plow shares and neighbor does not have to teach neighbor because everyone is full of the knowledge of God fulfilled yet? does the lion lay down with the lamb?

I don't think it was ever the blood of cattle that gave atonement, it was the blood of Christ. We are told that is the only way of salvation and yet we are told in Matthew that the OT saints walked the streets of Jerusalem at the physical death of Jesus. If you study the sacrificial system, they were to give up their sins so they could be saved, and the Lord told us he gave life blood for our souls and it was a requirement for salvation. I have studied that system and it is the same system we have in Christ, only explained more thoroughly giving all the sins that Christ saves us from.

God tells us we can't be holy on our own, but the NT is clear, even after John the Baptist that we are to repent. Christ wipes out our sin and it as if we become righteous through Christ. But if we still want sin in our life, I think God lets us choose that. When we repent and don't want the sin we are given help to actually partially attain that. It seems to me that people who give themselves completely to the Lord have a peaceful shining look you can actually see in them.

 

[jacob_g]

I don't think it was ever the blood of cattle that gave atonement, it was the blood of Christ. We are told that is the only way of salvation and yet we are told in Matthew that the OT saints walked the streets of Jerusalem at the physical death of Jesus. If you study the sacrificial system, they were to give up their sins so they could be saved, and the Lord told us he gave life blood for our souls and it was a requirement for salvation. I have studied that system and it is the same system we have in Christ, only explained more thoroughly giving all the sins that Christ saves us from.

God tells us we can't be holy on our own, but the NT is clear, even after John the Baptist that we are to repent. Christ wipes out our sin and it as if we become righteous through Christ. But if we still want sin in our life, I think God lets us choose that. When we repent and don't want the sin we are given help to actually partially attain that. It seems to me that people who give themselves completely to the Lord have a peaceful shining look you can actually see in them.

You just said everything we get out of the Torah starting at Gen. 3:15! AMEN!!!!

Do we have an argument (or want to debate)!?! If so you have to show me where? In fact everything you said can be found Gen 1-11! forget the "LAW".

 

[garee]

I thank our gracious Lord that when we love the Lord with our whole heart and soul and still fail in obedience, our Lord gives us a safety met of forgiveness.

Surely, with prayer and study we can find the answer. The Lord tells us the "law of Moses" does not need to be followed and the Lord tells us He and the law are eternal. We only need to determine what the Lord means by the law of Moses.

I would think that what I would call the doctrine of the witness that God has spoken, should be looked into. This is so that we can lean to divide them from the doctrines of men as the witness of men . His doctrines come from above. It is shown in the parable below. While the father of lies is earthly inspired of the devil as oral traditions of mankind

Deuteronomy 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

I would offer the law and the prophets with the letter of the law (death) It is represented as coming from Moses. Moses signified as the law that kills. The spirit of judgment . And the prophets the other half of the perfect or complete law as those who come in the Spirit or power of Elias , the power of the gospel represented by John the Baptist introducing the prophet apostle Jesus who also came in the Spirit of Elijah the Holy Spirt . .

In Mathew the two different kind of laws are used to represent the one witness of God. The letter, that which kills, and the law of faith, the unseen power the gospel . The just (the letter) and justifier, (law of faith) working to create one perfect law.. . which apart have no power

God introducing his propmised, prophet apostle Jesus whose whole life was a living parable .The son of man doing the will of the father whos dwelt in Jesus' earthen body of death

Matthew 17:2-4 King James Version (KJV)And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias (the perfect law of complete ) talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

They completely missed the interpretation of the Parable destroying the faith principle.

Matthew 22:39-41 King James Version (KJV) And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, (the perfect law) neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Luke another witness that confirms we honor one teaching master the doctrines that come down from heaven .Not making the same mistake of Peter and the apostles.

Luke 16: 27-31 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, (the perfect law) neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

In Revelation 11 the gospel is silenced or killed the perfect is separated from grace as the law of faith from the letter of the law .

Revelation 11:9-11 King James Version (KJV) And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

Psalm 19:6-8 King James Version (KJV) His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof. The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: (as it actively works in a person to both will and do the good pleasure of God) the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple. (us) The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.

The letter of the law separate from the law of faith has nothing to offer both parts working as one perform the one work. The just and justifier of those who do believe.

 

[Prycejosh1987]

The word Torah is transcribed, usually, as law. What is the Torah besides being the first five books of scripture?

Scripture sometimes speaks of the law as the customs that Moses gave the Jews. At other times it is speaking of the eternal laws built into our universe. How can we tell the difference? Could we know the difference if we understood the word torah, and knew exactly when it was transcribed as law?

I suppose by reading what is being said and looking at contexts.

 

[Grandpa]

I am not confused, I am pointing out that you are confused. We are told that we should learn from all scripture and in confusion people say the new covenant wiped scripture out. By studying the priesthood, we learn of what Christ means to us. The temple was based on the Lord. Cutting foreskin was a mark of belonging to the Lord. That was the point of it, and that still stands but through the Holy Spirit instead of a fleshly mark. And the Lord never, once told us not to celebrate his plan of salvation or to pray or that He recreated the world so the seventh day stopped being the day God rested and asked us to.

Galatians 3:24-25
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.


Now take the definition that Magenta gave you about Torah being instruction that points to something.

Once you get to the destination of what the Torah was pointing you towards you have no more use to go back to the instructions to get where you are already at.

Galatians 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.



What was Torah trying to instruct? It was instruction in Righteousness, correct? Well we couldn't be righteous by understanding and working at the law. We had to go somewhere else to acquire this Righteousness.

This somewhere else is Christ. Christ is our Righteousness.

 

[oldethennew]

the Torah IS CHRIST...
JOHN 1:1.
In the beginning was The Word, and The Word was with God, and The Word was God.
1JOHN 1:1.
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes,
which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of The Word of Life;
....................................................................................................

 

[Blik]

Galatians 3:24-25
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Now take the definition that Magenta gave you about Torah being instruction that points to something.

Once you get to the destination of what the Torah was pointing you towards you have no more use to go back to the instructions to get where you are already at.

Galatians 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

What was Torah trying to instruct? It was instruction in Righteousness, correct? Well we couldn't be righteous by understanding and working at the law. We had to go somewhere else to acquire this Righteousness.

This somewhere else is Christ. Christ is our Righteousness.

You have decided that Paul does not agree with Christ. Christ said He did not abolish any part of the law. Christ said if you love me you will keep my commandments, John 14:15. Paul was a disciple of the Lord, chosen by the Lord and the Lord would not choose a man who opposed Him.

What Paul was speaking of was the things Moses told the people to do that led them to law obedience. Cutting foreskin led to accepting they belonged to the Lord, a separate people. Eating only foods that were pure led to keeping the mind pure and not letting thoughts in that were not pure to feed the mind. These are like a schoolmaster, they led to the law. We read scripture as saying law, but in the original scripture it was called Torah, not law. The word guidance must be added to give a more accurate meaning to law.

 

[Batyah]

Galatians 3:24-25
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.


Now take the definition that Magenta gave you about Torah being instruction that points to something.

Once you get to the destination of what the Torah was pointing you towards you have no more use to go back to the instructions to get where you are already at.

Galatians 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.



What was Torah trying to instruct? It was instruction in Righteousness, correct? Well we couldn't be righteous by understanding and working at the law. We had to go somewhere else to acquire this Righteousness.

This somewhere else is Christ. Christ is our Righteousness.

You are correct. Christ IS our righteousness. Because Christ is the Living Torah. He embodies the essence and spirit of the Law and Prophets. Before Creation of this age was the Word. The Word was with God and the Word was God. And the Word became flesh and Jesus the human completely lived and fulfilled the Law by living and breathing Torah. He brought it to fruition. He did not do away with it. What was nailed to the cross was the handwritten decree of death that transgression of the Law brought on one's head. We cannot repent from sin if we are unclear as to how to define it. The Word says that sin is the transgression of the Law. Therefore each and every one of the Ten Commandments must be kept and obeyed if we expect to be transformed into a Christ-like servant of God.
Yes, there are ceremonial instructions that no longer apply however that does not do away with our obligation to live and practice all that God taught us to keep and observe including the Ten Commandments and His Holy Feasts and Sabbaths.

 

[garee]

Blik said:

The word Torah is transcribed, usually, as law. What is the Torah besides being the first five books of scripture?


Scripture sometimes speaks of the law as the customs that Moses gave the Jews. At other times it is speaking of the eternal laws built into our universe. How can we tell the difference? Could we know the difference if we understood the word torah, and knew exactly when it was transcribed as law?

I would offer.

The Torah the letter of the law cannot be divided from itself. The whole Bible is the book of law. . The letter of the law (death) . . . . that which kills .It is not a book of various opinions or private interpretations of men but the law of God. .

Because it can only kill and not create anew another law must come beside it to give power to the dead letter making it the living, abiding word .. That is the law of faith the spiritual understanding given as a free gift to those born again.

It is called the "perfect law" (two laws) completing the circuit that make one new perfect law of faith .
it is shown in the Psalms 19 as a labor of His love working in us Quickening our soul in order to give us simple ones the unseen understandings.


It performs many different kinds of works of Christ' faith working in us to both will and perform His good pleasure . We walk by faith not after the letter of the law. Then we can rest as he our Sabbath makes our load easier.

In the Psalm below. The power of the living gospel. The pursuit of our husband Jesus the strong man rescuing his bride from the wages of death never to rise to new spiritual life

Psalms 19: 5-11) Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.
The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.

 

[Blik]

I would offer.

The Torah the letter of the law cannot be divided from itself. The whole Bible is the book of law. . The letter of the law (death) . . . . that which kills .It is not a book of various opinions or private interpretations of men but the law of God. .

Because it can only kill and not create anew another law must come beside it to give power to the dead letter making it the living, abiding word .. That is the law of faith the spiritual understanding given as a free gift to those born again.

It is called the "perfect law" (two laws) completing the circuit that make one new perfect law of faith .
it is shown in the Psalms 19 as a labor of His love working in us Quickening our soul in order to give us simple ones the unseen understandings.


It performs many different kinds of works of Christ' faith working in us to both will and perform His good pleasure . We walk by faith not after the letter of the law. Then we can rest as he our Sabbath makes our load easier.

In the Psalm below. The power of the living gospel. The pursuit of our husband Jesus the strong man rescuing his bride from the wages of death never to rise to new spiritual life

Psalms 19: 5-11) Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.
The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.

It depends on what your mind comprehends as the "letter of the law". We know cutting foreskin is not obeying the law of belonging to Christ, it is just the letter of the law. But many people are discarding the Lord's instruction by labeling his instructions "letter of the law".

 

[lenna]

Yes, there are ceremonial instructions that no longer apply however that does not do away with our obligation to live and practice all that God taught us to keep and observe including the Ten Commandments and His Holy Feasts and Sabbaths.

6Therefore, just as you have received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to walk in Him, 7rooted and built up in Him, established in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.

8See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, which are based on human tradition and the spiritual forces of the world rather than on Christ. 9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity dwells in bodily form. 10And you have been made complete in Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority.

11In Him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of your sinful nature, with the circumcision performed by Christb and not by human hands. 12And having been buried with Him in baptism, you were raised with Him through your faith in the power of God, who raised Him from the dead.

13When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses, 14having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross! 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

16Therefore let no one judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a feast, a New Moon, or a Sabbath. 17These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body that casts it belongs to Christ.c 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you with speculation about what he has seen. Such a person is puffed up without basis by his unspiritual mind. 19He has lost connection to the head, from whom the whole body, supported and knit together by its joints and ligaments, grows as God causes it to grow.

20If you have died with Christ to the spiritual forces of the world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its regulations: 21“Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!”? 22These will all perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such restrictions indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-prescribed worship, their false humility, and their harsh treatment of the body; but they are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

Colossians 2

 

[Batyah]

6Therefore, just as you have received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to walk in Him, 7rooted and built up in Him, established in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.

8See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, which are based on human tradition and the spiritual forces of the world rather than on Christ. 9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity dwells in bodily form. 10And you have been made complete in Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority.

11In Him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of your sinful nature, with the circumcision performed by Christb and not by human hands. 12And having been buried with Him in baptism, you were raised with Him through your faith in the power of God, who raised Him from the dead.

13When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses, 14having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross! 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
16Therefore let no one judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a feast, a New Moon, or a Sabbath. 17These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body that casts it belongs to Christ.c 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you with speculation about what he has seen. Such a person is puffed up without basis by his unspiritual mind. 19He has lost connection to the head, from whom the whole body, supported and knit together by its joints and ligaments, grows as God causes it to grow.

20If you have died with Christ to the spiritual forces of the world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its regulations: 21“Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!”? 22These will all perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such restrictions indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-prescribed worship, their false humility, and their harsh treatment of the body; but they are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

Colossians 2

verse 16 is referring to those who were actually keeping the Sabbaths and received judgement from those around them who did not.
verse 21 refers to the extra-biblical man-made bylaws that were not part of God's Law.
verse 23 also refers to the man-made religious rules that the religion of Judaism had taught for doctrine (similar to protestantism today)

God does not change.
Jesus did not come to start a new religion.
Jesus is God.
Jesus kept the Sabbath.
the Apostles kept the sabbath and the Feasts of the Lord.
the Feasts of the Lord will be observed in the Kingdom to come.


b

 

[lenna]

verse 16 is referring to those who were actually keeping the Sabbaths and received judgement from those around them who did not.
verse 21 refers to the extra-biblical man-made bylaws that were not part of God's Law.
verse 23 also refers to the man-made religious rules that the religion of Judaism had taught for doctrine (similar to protestantism today)

God does not change.
Jesus did not come to start a new religion.
Jesus is God.
Jesus kept the Sabbath.
the Apostles kept the sabbath and the Feasts of the Lord.
the Feasts of the Lord will be observed in the Kingdom to come.


b

typical and you ignore scripture like all those who follow your type of religion do

you know more than Paul, eh? He would tell you that you are not preaching the gospel

 

[Batyah]

typical and you ignore scripture like all those who follow your type of religion do

you know more than Paul, eh? He would tell you that you are not preaching the gospel

Paul kept the Sabbath

 

[tourist]

Paul kept the Sabbath

The 4th Commandment is the only one that has the word "Remember' in it. That is a critical key word of that particular commandment.

 

[Blik]

Galatians in notorious for teaching the law is cancelled, but it does not teach that. Paul says we are not under the law. If we go to Christ for forgiveness, we are under grace, not law. We are not under law but grace.

Humans say this means we can ignore the law. we can ignore that Christ told us that if we love Him we will obey His commandments. Christ said he did not abolish the law. Christ said He and the Father are one. Paul is speaking for the Father. Would the Father tell us all the guidance given us is cancelled?