Is the false teaching of pre-tribulation rapture, getting the power of "him" out of the way, who restrains the antichrist?

[TheDivineWatermark]

"For I do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, of this mystery, so that you may not be wise in yourselves: A hardening [/blindness] in part has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles may come in [G1525]." Romans 11:25


"Therefore Israel will be abandoned [/Therefore will he give them up] until she who is in labor has given birth; then the rest [/the remnant] of His brothers will return [H7725] to the children of Israel." Micah 5:3 (distinct from the Subject of v.2; this verse being parallel Rev12:17's "remnant," which is DISTINCT from the one having been "born/birthed and CAUGHT UP" in that passage [from v.13 - "the male [G730]"] )

 

[Kolistus]

No
When Jesus resurrected the bible says he took captivity captive
Another verse says he preached to those in prison.
And yet another says they were seen walking about in Jerusalem.

All those patriarchs are in heaven and resurrected.

Firstfruits.

3 resurrection total.

Firstfruits is fulfilled,then main (dead in Christ only)

Then the 2nd (gwtj)

But what about the first resurrection in Revelation 20? Which is after Revelation 19 the second coming? Who is in that?

 

[BenjaminN]

Amen
None of them were resurrected postrib.

It is not saying they were.
Jesus is firstsfruits resurrected.

I guess you are comfortable ignoring that since you are determined to fit your postrib rapture in by force.

The language tells us it has to be a postrib Christian resurrection, accompanying the postrib rapture, as those being resurrected were beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image.

Revelation 20 (New King James Version)

4...Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

But what about the first resurrection in Revelation 20? Which is after Revelation 19 the second coming? Who is in that?

Recall... that the verse does not state: "these are the first to be resurrected" (we remember that the "Two Witnesses" have already been resurrected at some point back at the "6th Trumpet/2nd Woe" point in the chronology)

Instead, it (v.20:4b) says, "This is the resurrection--the first"... meaning, the resurrection OF LIFE (as opposed to the resurrection of damnation/judgment that pertains to the GWTj 1000 yrs later).

These (in v.20:4b) who will have DIED in the trib years (esp the 2nd HALF of the 7 yrs) are simply the LAST to be resurrected [b/f the earthly MK age commences] (in the resurrection OF LIFE); whereas v.20:4a speaks of those "still-living" at the time of His Second Coming to the earth (who will enter the earthly MK age in mortal bodies, capable of reproducing/bearing children), where it says, "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, [... AND...]," parallel with Dan7:22 which says, "Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom."

IOW, still-living persons (saints) at the END of the trib yrs, but STILL ON THE EARTH, just like Dan12:13 shows, "BLESSED is he that waiteth and cometh to the 1335 days" (but this is NOT referring to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" who will have already been "caught up" WELL-BEFORE this point in the chronology [Rev5:9 has ppl (IN HEAVEN) saying "hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out of EVERY kindred and tongue and people and nation"]... no one is shown "caught up" in Rev20:4, see )

 

[BenjaminN]

Recall... that the verse does not state: "these are the first to be resurrected" (we remember that the "Two Witnesses" have already been resurrected at some point back at the "6th Trumpet/2nd Woe" point in the chronology)

Instead, it (v.20:4b) says, "This is the resurrection--the first"... meaning, the resurrection OF LIFE (as opposed to the resurrection of damnation/judgment that pertains to the GWTj 1000 yrs later).

These (in v.20:4b) who will have DIED in the trib years (esp the 2nd HALF of the 7 yrs) are simply the LAST to be resurrected [b/f the earthly MK age commences] (in the resurrection OF LIFE); whereas v.20:4a speaks of those "still-living" at the time of His Second Coming to the earth (who will enter the earthly MK age in mortal bodies, capable of reproducing/bearing children), where it says, "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, [... AND...]," parallel with Dan7:22 which says, "Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom."

IOW, still-living persons (saints) at the END of the trib yrs, but STILL ON THE EARTH, just like Dan12:13 shows, "BLESSED is he that waiteth and cometh to the 1335 days" (but this is NOT referring to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" who will have already been "caught up" WELL-BEFORE this point in the chronology [Rev5:9 has ppl (IN HEAVEN) saying "hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out of EVERY kindred and tongue and people and nation"]... no one is shown "caught up" in Rev20:4, see )

After Christ Yeshua's death on the cross, all who have died in Christ throughout the ages, and to this day, have gone to, and are at this moment, in heaven, waiting to be resurrected into earthly bodies, when they come with Christ Yeshua for conquering earth and start His Millennial Kingdom, at His second coming, to be resurrected on earth to, together with those in Christ who are still alive, meet Christ Yeshua in the clouds immediately after the great tribulation:

Luke 23 (New King James Version)

39Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, [j]“If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.”
40But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42Then he said [k]to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”43And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

2 Corinthians 12 (New King James Version)

2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Revelation 2 (New King James Version)

7“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.” ’

1 Thessalonians 4 (New King James Version)

The Comfort of Christ’s Coming
13But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [c]sleep in Jesus.
15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Revelation 20 (New King James Version)

The Saints Reign with Christ 1,000 Years
4And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Matthew 24 (New King James Version)

14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
The Great Tribulation
20And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the [c]elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
23“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25See, I have told you beforehand.
The Coming of the Son of Man
29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[Absolutely]

But what about the first resurrection in Revelation 20? Which is after Revelation 19 the second coming? Who is in that?

They are PART of the first resurrection

They specifically lost their lives in the gt.

 

[Absolutely]

After Christ Yeshua's death on the cross, all who have died in Christ throughout the ages, and to this day, have gone to, and are at this moment, in heaven, waiting to be resurrected into earthly bodies, when they come with Christ Yeshua for conquering earth and start His Millennial Kingdom, at His second coming, to be resurrected on earth to, together with those in Christ who are still alive, meet Christ Yeshua in the clouds immediately after the great tribulation:

Luke 23 (New King James Version)

39Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, [j]“If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.”
40But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42Then he said [k]to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”43And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

2 Corinthians 12 (New King James Version)

2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Revelation 2 (New King James Version)

7“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.” ’

1 Thessalonians 4 (New King James Version)

The Comfort of Christ’s Coming
13But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [c]sleep in Jesus.
15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Revelation 20 (New King James Version)

The Saints Reign with Christ 1,000 Years
4And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Matthew 24 (New King James Version)

14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
The Great Tribulation
20And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the [c]elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
23“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25See, I have told you beforehand.
The Coming of the Son of Man
29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The first resurrection is the dead in christ in 1 thes 4 PLUS those you point to.
AND ALSO the firstfruits which includes Jesus resurrection.

3 Groups = first resurrection.

(Unless you want to ignore the other 2)

 

[Absolutely]

The language tells us it has to be a postrib Christian resurrection, accompanying the postrib rapture, as those being resurrected were beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image.

Revelation 20 (New King James Version)

4...Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

NOTHING THERE points to or directly places ANY resurrection postrib.
NOTHING AT ALL.

You read it like you want it to be.

The proof is that you need firstfruits ignored or removed.

That is your red flag.

 

[BenjaminN]

NOTHING THERE points to or directly places ANY resurrection postrib.
NOTHING AT ALL.

You read it like you want it to be.

The proof is that you need firstfruits ignored or removed.

That is your red flag.

Revelation 20 (New King James Version)

The Saints Reign with Christ 1,000 Years
4And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Of the ones resurrected, there are ones that was beheaded in the great tribulation. How can you be resurrected before the great tribulation, if you have not yet been decapitated during the great tribulation, that still would have to come, if you say the resurrection and rapture is pretrib?

 

[Absolutely]

Of the ones resurrected, there are ones that was beheaded in the great tribulation. How can you be resurrected before the great tribulation, if you have not yet been decapitated during the great tribulation, that still would have to come, if you say the resurrection and rapture is pretrib?

Mat 25
5 went with the groom
5 foolish were not worthy and are left behind.

Half stayed

We see them in heaven later on as "the innumerable number ".

So the foolish refuse the mark and die.

That ends the church age..

The ac kills all refusing the mark.
All believers either take the mark or die.

I know you dont want to hear that.

 

[BenjaminN]

All believers either take the mark or die.
.

A believer can not take the mark - it would be contradictory in terms... I'm struggling to follow your thinking...

 

[BenjaminN]

Mat 25
5 went with the groom
5 foolish were not worthy and are left behind.

Yes, 5 went with the groom and 5 foolish were not worthy and are left behind in the rapture, at Christ Yeshua's second coming in the clouds where the resurrected and raptured ones in Christ Yeshua meets Him in the clouds (1 Thess 4) after the great tribulation. The 5 foolish did not fill their lamps of faith, only the 5 that went with the groom filled their lamps of faith to last through the great tribulation.

Matthew 13 (New King James Version)

18“Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 20But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 23But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

 

[Absolutely]

A believer can not take the mark - it would be contradictory in terms... I'm struggling to follow your thinking...

True
Most refuse the mark and die

 

[BenjaminN]

True
Most refuse the mark and die

Again... all believers will refuse the mark. Some will escape by fleeing under divine guidance into the wilderness, some will go into captivity and some will die.

 

[Absolutely]

Of the ones resurrected, there are ones that was beheaded in the great tribulation. How can you be resurrected before the great tribulation, if you have not yet been decapitated during the great tribulation, that still would have to come, if you say the resurrection and rapture is pretrib?

Of the ones resurrected, there are ones that was beheaded in the great tribulation. How can you be resurrected before the great tribulation,

they are resurrected during the gt.

they come in during the gt.
rev 7
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

how do we know they are resurrected?

because earlier, rev 6, the martyrs were not allowed out from under the altar. (they died but were isolated under the altar ,"until their number is completed"

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

so the wedding guests as far as the gentile bride are fulfilled by rev 7.
the raptured alive and dead in Christ raised followed by the billions martyred by the ac for refusing the mark.(they are raised after they are martyred.

next are the jews. 144k firstfruits follower by main jewish harvest. rev 14

 

[BenjaminN]

they are resurrected during the gt.

they come in during the gt.
rev 7
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

how do we know they are resurrected?

because earlier, rev 6, the martyrs were not allowed out from under the altar. (they died but were isolated under the altar ,"until their number is completed"

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

so the wedding guests as far as the gentile bride are fulfilled by rev 7.
the raptured alive and dead in Christ raised followed by the billions martyred by the ac for refusing the mark.(they are raised after they are martyred.

next are the jews. 144k firstfruits follower by main jewish harvest. rev 14

Revelation 7:13-15's tribulation saints are in heaven, they died in the great tribulation. It is before their resurrection into their glorified bodies to this earth, to be raptured with the believers still alive, to meet Christ Yeshua in the clouds at his second coming, to start His Millennial Kingdom (1 Thess 4, Revelation 20:4-8 )

 

[Absolutely]

Revelation 7:13-15's tribulation saints are in heaven, they died in the great tribulation. It is before their resurrection into their glorified bodies to this earth, to be raptured with the believers still alive, to meet Christ Yeshua in the clouds at his second coming, to start His Millennial Kingdom (1 Thess 4, Revelation 20:4-8 )

Lets see
billions killed during the gt.

ok lets start there.
rev 13
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.


postribs say "WE ALL LIVE THROUGH THE GT TO BE RAPTURED AT THE END"

That is TOTAL deception.

ALL BELIEVERS DIE. (that refuse the mark) that is what the word says.

Pretrib rapture of the dead in christ raised from the dead and those alive remnant (5 wise)
then the foolish virgins are martyred (as the above verses declare)

then the Jews rev 19.

that fills the house in heaven with the wedding guests. (parable of the wedding guests and the dialog at the last supper)

 

[BenjaminN]

Again... all believers will refuse the mark. Some will escape by fleeing under divine guidance into the wilderness, some will go into captivity and some will die.

postribs say "WE ALL LIVE THROUGH THE GT TO BE RAPTURED AT THE END"

I think someone is being a bit dishonest here.

 

[Absolutely]

I think someone is being a bit dishonest here.

billions do not die in the gt?

Are you serious?

 

[BenjaminN]

Again... all believers will refuse the mark. Some will escape by fleeing under divine guidance into the wilderness, some will go into captivity and some will die.

billions do not die in the gt?

Are you serious?

Again... all believers will refuse the mark. Some will escape by fleeing under divine guidance into the wilderness, some will go into captivity and some will die.

Matthew 24 (New King James Version)

9“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
The Great Tribulation
20And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the [c]elect’s sake those days will be shortened. 23“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25See, I have told you beforehand.
The Coming of the Son of Man
29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 13 (English Standard Version)

5And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months. 6It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling,a that is, those who dwell in heaven. 7Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them.b And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, 8and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain. 9If anyone has an ear, let him hear:
10If anyone is to be taken captive,
to captivity he goes;
if anyone is to be slain with the sword,
with the sword must he be slain.
Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints.

Matthew 13 (New King James Version)

20But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 23But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”