Is Socialism biblical?

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RobbyEarl

Guest
yes,

Americans have had it beaten into them from all kinds of sources since the "red scare" and the 1950's that socialism = communism = Stalinism = oppressive Maoist dictatorship = godlessness

that's why we have so many replies here that just say "no" but don't back it up with anything. they think it's "obvious" and scripture like what i put doesn't even cross their minds. many of them are completely blind to it because of all the nationalistic, anti-USSR propaganda they've been spoonfed as Americans their whole lives.

of course that doesn't describe everyone -- but i'm confident that accounts for the opinion of no small proportion of citizens in this country - especially those who are old enough to have lived through the McCarthy era. we've been culturally brought up to connote all kinds of evil with words like "communism" and "socialism" and beaten over the head with advertising promoting selfish covetousness, even though as a country we've had forms of social welfare and federal programs that use tax revenue to implement things that benefit the whole populace ever since we started collecting taxes in the first place.

in some ways, it's a language barrier, IMHO.
So you want to be told what you can eat and what you can wear and what you can drink, that is socialism and communism, also told what church you can go to and how much money you can make and even in America take your money that you worked for and give it to people that refuse to work. Sumpins wrong with dat.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Socialism is theft, as it steals from those prospering.
no, it's not - if it was, then so is all taxation, and the Bible is clear that we should not withhold taxes to whomever taxes are due.

but not even to argue that, what did Jesus say about we should do about a thief?


If anyone takes away your coat, don't hold back your shirt either.
(Luke 6:29)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,422
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So you want to be told what you can eat and what you can wear and what you can drink, that is socialism and communism, also told what church you can go to and how much money you can make and even in America take your money that you worked for and give it to people that refuse to work. Sumpins wrong with dat.

where in the world do you get any of those accusations from my post?

and more importantly, what does the Bible say -- not what your opinion says, and what our own selfishness says -- what does Christ say?

Give to everyone who asks you,
and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back.

(Luke 6:30)​

if you go back a page or so - or look up & read Deuteronomy 14:28-29 yourself, you'll see that the Mosaic law included social welfare programs for Israel. socialism is not "being told what you can eat or wear or drink" -- that's ignorant. where in the world do you get that idea?
it's using revenue from taxation to implement programs that care for the needy, and to use the collective wealth of the nation to benefit all the citizens of the nation. that is Biblical: we are not only to care for the poor as individuals, but in the OT Israel was to do it nationally with the tithe, and in the NT the Church was taught to do it among themselves too. Scripture doesn't provide a formula for secular government, but a government that reflects those values is reflecting Scriptural principles.
 

jamie26301

Senior Member
May 14, 2011
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no, it's not - if it was, then so is all taxation, and the Bible is clear that we should not withhold taxes to whomever taxes are due.

but not even to argue that, what did Jesus say about we should do about a thief?


If anyone takes away your coat, don't hold back your shirt either.
(Luke 6:29)

NOOOOOO, the UNCOMFORTABLE Scriptures! The Scriptures that challenge us to give of ourselves, EVEN at the point of a gun, instead of the great ones that makes us feel superior in how hard we work compared to others! The horror, no, the nerve!

(sorry, just had to. I mean, no you didn't! :) )
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,422
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There need be no poor people among you, for in the land the Lord your God is giving you to possess as your inheritance, he will richly bless you, if only you fully obey the Lord your God and are careful to follow all these commands I am giving you today.
For the Lord your God will bless you as he has promised, and you will lend to many nations but will borrow from none. You will rule over many nations but none will rule over you.If anyone is poor among your fellow Israelites in any of the towns of the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward them. Rather, be openhanded and freely lend them whatever they need.
Be careful not to harbor this wicked thought: “The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is near,” so that you do not show ill will toward the needy among your fellow Israelites and give them nothing. They may then appeal to the Lord against you, and you will be found guilty of sin.
Give generously to them and do so without a grudging heart; then because of this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to.
There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your fellow Israelites who are poor and needy in your land.

(Deuteronomy 15:4-11)


there would be no poor if we would obey the Lord and do as He says, showing mercy and fairness and dealing with each other generously with open hands. He would repay our kindness with blessing.
but the Lord knows we are selfish, covetous & stiff-necked people, thinking it's "theft" if we help the poor and needy and treating generosity in our hearts as if it's a naive vice rather than a Godly virtue. so there will always be poor in the land, because we are wicked, and no one is good.

just because people suck, doesn't mean social welfare is not Biblical.
 
E

ember

Guest
Jesus said the poor would always be with us...so do you think that is because scripture is not followed or because that is the world?

I honestly do not think that if they Bible were followed to the letter that wrongs would all be made right

We will always have corruption and suffering until God does away with it all
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,422
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Jesus said the poor would always be with us...so do you think that is because scripture is not followed or because that is the world?

I honestly do not think that if they Bible were followed to the letter that wrongs would all be made right

We will always have corruption and suffering until God does away with it all
it is because men do not follow the Lord. see Deuteronomy 15, i quoted above ^^

((i.e. because of corruption))
 
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Jesus4ever

Senior Member
May 18, 2015
783
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just because people suck, doesn't mean social welfare is not Biblical.

I´m sorry, brother, but you keep insisting on telling there is Biblical welfare. There´s a large difference between helping the poor (only the poor) and have references to social welfare policies in the Bible.

I had a post (#158) stating the following, in order to know your opinion:

"Brother, I respect your opinion, but that´s not Socialism. Helping the poor is a quite different thing. The Right helps (or should) help those in need, but ONLY those. What you are saying in the application of "taxes" to those in need at that time. Socialism is much more than helping the poor.

Socialism is about (coercive) :

- social/common ownership
- distribution of wealth (more economic equality)
- democratic control of means of production
- progressive taxation
- class distinctions are diminished
- f
ree, equal access to healthcare & education provided through a socialized system funded by taxation.
- etc


Do you see this refereed on the passage you wrote?


During that time, private property was legitimate, taxes were flat, and then you helped those according to your will and of how much you needed. Israel authorities helped those in need, that´s a fact, but they didn´t say that "hey, you have more, so you have to pay more taxes" nor they did any sort of wealth distribution or they control any means of production, etc. Sounds to me that was not Socialism...!"
 

jamie26301

Senior Member
May 14, 2011
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it's using revenue from taxation to implement programs that care for the needy, and to use the collective wealth of the nation to benefit all the citizens of the nation. that is Biblical: we are not only to care for the poor as individuals, but in the OT Israel was to do it nationally with the tithe, and in the NT the Church was taught to do it among themselves too. Scripture doesn't provide a formula for secular government, but a government that reflects those values is reflecting Scriptural principles.
See, here's the issue... everyone has a different idea what needy is. Someone can be technically needy - but if they're not working, they're not needy. Which is silly.

Take the homeless for example. They get criticized for not just getting a job. You JUST go get an ID (costs money). JUST get to the Social Security office to get you SSN card, which you need a mountain of paperwork to get (takes resources). (Can't get a job without SSN and ID) JUST go and get nice, pressed clothes to interview in (costs money). JUST find a place to stay (many can't as shelters have limited space and they have limited mobility) so you can clean up when you go to an interview (even soap and water costs money).

This is why so much of this "well, no one who doesn't work is really needy" bull crap sounds so heartless, so cold to me. People are so used to the resources and procedures they take for granted, they assume everyone has access and everyone is able to get a job.

That's an extreme example, getting to the abject poor in society, which is growing in number. And when they're "making a living panhandling" and laws are set in place to allow them to do this (and thus some will actually try to save their money and get a little at a time), people don't give to them cos they JUST won't get a job. Nevermind they don't have the RESOURCES, because America has been a country that has had such a high standard of living (compared to others) for so long, these challenges never even crosses their minds.

And because it doesn't, it says to me they never really thought about it from the poor's perspective, and they keep turning their noses up because "we don't want to enable anything bad you see."

People don't want the gov telling them what to do with their money, but they're mighty quick to tell others what to do with their lack of it.

Sorry, this really touches a nerve with me and it makes me sick. Those people, and because of the self-righteous "let's not be enablers" types, is why we need socialist aspects to our society.
 
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E

ember

Guest
it is because men do not follow the Lord. see Deuteronomy 15, i quoted above ^^
I know what you wrote Post...which is why I asked what I did

Of course the world does not follow the Lord...hey ~ we can't even do it without His grace...that's kind of my point

I'm Canadian...yay healthcare, yah know? but things are going downhill because every person they let into this country get healthcare, money, whatever at the expense of those who have paid into the system all their lives

I'm not arguing we should not help people...I am saying that even healthcare is a system...welfare and unemployment are systems...they are systems of this world and they will never work as if God were in charge...He is not in charge of these things

Do you see the point I am trying to make? it seems that no matter how much you give, someone else always has their hand out...again, not saying not to give...but all of this mess is a mess because of sin

It is not going to end no matter what we do...and let's not even bring up the UN
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,422
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I know what you wrote Post...which is why I asked what I did

Of course the world does not follow the Lord...hey ~ we can't even do it without His grace...that's kind of my point

I'm Canadian...yay healthcare, yah know? but things are going downhill because every person they let into this country get healthcare, money, whatever at the expense of those who have paid into the system all their lives

I'm not arguing we should not help people...I am saying that even healthcare is a system...welfare and unemployment are systems...they are systems of this world and they will never work as if God were in charge...He is not in charge of these things

Do you see the point I am trying to make? it seems that no matter how much you give, someone else always has their hand out...again, not saying not to give...but all of this mess is a mess because of sin

It is not going to end no matter what we do...and let's not even bring up the UN

i know i'm an idealist.

:)

and i know you're right too; that corruption is the reason that all our "towers" fall - socialist ones, capitalist ones, democratic republic ones, monarchist ones... you name it. all our governments are secular and run by people, most of whom do not have the Lord in their hearts.

. . & nothing man does is going to "work" -- we need Christ, and His kingdom. may He come soon!!

do you get my point too though? that the reality of depraved mankind trying to implement an ideal doesn't really comment on the ideal - it comments on pragmatism.

i know there are various levels of what people call "socialism" too -- but here in America, no one, not even Bernie Sanders, is advocating that the government should revoke property ownership, take over pharma & the banks and the factories, nationally collect all profits from every industry, average out the GDP and cut everyone a paycheck.
the current topics & proposals in our national politics are about a national single-payer health insurance, expanding the boundaries of public education, and social safety-net programs like unemployment and food stamps. that's not "socialism" in the sense that theory-of-government books call it; it's "democratic socialism" but it's being equated with a lot of things that it has nothing to do with. to a lot of Americans today, food stamps and unemployment and medicare are what they call "socialism" --- those things are not anti-scriptural; if anything they are scriptural, but the Bible isn't really a theory-of-government book.

so yeah, Jesus4ever, i understand that there is a more extreme version of what's actually relevant to our current political climate here in this country that's more properly called "socialism" -- thank you, and you are right. do you understand why i think it's important to talk about these things that nationally help the needy though? because that much looser definition of "socialism" is, in reality, what the American conversation on this topic is about?




 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
Politics, schmolitics, then! The truth be told, socialism, in the U.S., is defined as bad in terms of what the other guy gets from the government. What was that famous thing some angry guy shouted at a political rally some years ago, wrailing against socialized medicine, something like, "I don't want the government messing with my Medicare!"

The apostles of and bastions of capitalism, Wall Street, billionaires who would withhold ketchup from rural school children, would let you and any small business go belly up, because it's what you deserve, for your failures by the sacred rules of capitalism, but what did they do in 2008? Came crawling, hat in hand, to the government for a bailout, Goldman Hank even getting on bended knee to Nancy Pelosi. And you like clean water, don't you, clean food, wouldn't think kindly of dumping nuclear waste in a nearby pond, if your children go to public school probably like the idea the single and childless are helping foot the bill for you? I've not seen anybody screaming they didn't get a bill for the whole cost of the public education of their children. Those of you with a mortgage, who's going to be first in line, to reimburse their mortgage tax break? Renters don't get such socialism.

The whole corporate world loves tax breaks, writeoffs, government subsidies individuals don't get, the plant and equipment of the industrial economy partly, or even wholly, paid for by tax breaks, whereas not a dime of your home furniture or appliances subsidized, that is, the big corporate capitalists the greatest beneficiaries of government largesse. Some of them make profit hand-over-fist and pay closer to zip in taxes, compared to the some poor, struggling slob they resent employing, when there's no possibility of using slaves overseas.

You've got NASA, who gave you Tang and Velcro, some interesting pictures and revelation there's dust on the moon, but for how many billions? You know something about NASA, a dirty little secret? It's more a government welfare program for scientists who wouldn't otherwise find use for their degrees in the private sector, specializing in PR to the public as to why more billions need to be thrown at them: you can one day look forward to the pants zipper being replaced.

The truth is, you have a whole corporate universe, and you too, one way or another, feeding at the trough of the biggest business on the planet, the U.S. Federal Government, and throw in state government. Life was ugly in the Soviet paradise, would be even uglier, in a capitalist paradise, which, you Americans, your nation is not, by long shot the government deep in the grinding of the economic wheels, and you'd have it no other way. What do you think would happen, if that government spending dried up? What do you think the markets would look like, the past few years, without Fed funny money?

In any event, let us continue to "fight the good fight" against the horrors of socialism that benefit somebody else, and, be warned, D.C., stay out of our Medicare! (Or Iraq will have hell to pay...)
 

Jesus4ever

Senior Member
May 18, 2015
783
19
18
There need be no poor people among you, for in the land the Lord your God is giving you to possess as your inheritance, he will richly bless you, if only you fully obey the Lord your God and are careful to follow all these commands I am giving you today.
For the Lord your God will bless you as he has promised, and you will lend to many nations but will borrow from none. You will rule over many nations but none will rule over you.If anyone is poor among your fellow Israelites in any of the towns of the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward them. Rather, be openhanded and freely lend them whatever they need.
Be careful not to harbor this wicked thought: “The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is near,” so that you do not show ill will toward the needy among your fellow Israelites and give them nothing. They may then appeal to the Lord against you, and you will be found guilty of sin.
Give generously to them and do so without a grudging heart; then because of this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to.
There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your fellow Israelites who are poor and needy in your land.

(Deuteronomy 15:4-11)


there would be no poor if we would obey the Lord and do as He says, showing mercy and fairness and dealing with each other generously with open hands. He would repay our kindness with blessing.
but the Lord knows we are selfish, covetous & stiff-necked people, thinking it's "theft" if we help the poor and needy and treating generosity in our hearts as if it's a naive vice rather than a Godly virtue. so there will always be poor in the land, because we are wicked, and no one is good.

just because people suck, doesn't mean social welfare is not Biblical.

Let us imagine this situation in a socialist country (and that the Government helps all in need):

- Group A: 5 individuals (one of them you) earn a salary of $150.000 per year;
- Group B: 15 individuals (one of them me) earn a total of $35.000 per year;
- Group C: 25 individuals (one of them Freddy), earn a total of $10.000 per year.

- Group A taxes: 30% ($45.000 - the amount you pay)
- Group B taxes: 15% ($5.250 - the amount I pay)
- Group C taxes: 10% ($1.000 - the amount Freddy pays)


So, after this, do you think it´s fair (the so called "social justice"):

- For you to have the exactly the same benefits than me and Freddy, after paying more than 8,5 times the amount I paid and 45 times more than Freddy?


Taking in account only those who do not need help from the Government:
- Is it fair for those who cannot have children to be paying for others family allowance?
- Is it fair being forced to pay for others retirement when you´re not sure you´ll have your own?
- Is it fair for Group A paying much more than the Group B and C, even knowing all their children will have free education and healthcare?


Please see that the Bible shows that:
- Taxes were not progressive;
- Beyond taxes you give to charity the amount you want, when you want;
- The love of money and greed are the real problems, not being rich;
- We are equal to: God´s eyes in terms of being His creation, and to human laws. Apart from that, we are not equal. You can be much better at our work than me. In Capitalism you have the change to be promoted. In Socialism, not only you won´t be promoted, as you and me may earn the same.

Fair, isn´t it, brother?
 
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P

Persuaded

Guest
I believe all of us believe those who are truly in need should be helped.
The problem I have is what is defined as need by many.
Cell phones, steaks diners, fancy clothes, TVs , internet, etc are not necessary.
Nurishing food, simple clothing, simple shelter, and necessary health care is all that is needed.
But those who refuse to work, or refuse to learn a trade, or make thimself unemployable by their own foolishness, should not receive any help.
If we only provided for those truly in need, we could do a better job of caring for them and save money as well.
What really angers me are those become wealthy "helping others" with my tax money, and those who use the system to live better than many who pay the taxes that supports them.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,422
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most of what you're talking about is irrelevant to the American political conversation, as i tried to explain. i don't care to talk about it.

but this bit right here - though also completely irrelevant to the current American conversation, and arguably not true at all even in "extreme" socialism:


In Socialism, not only you won´t be promoted, as you and me may earn the same.

Fair, isn´t it, brother?

remember the parable of the workers in the vineyard?

who all got paid the same amount, even though some worked all day, and some only a short time?
 
E

ember

Guest
do you understand why i think it's important to talk about these things that nationally help the needy though? because that much looser definition of "socialism" is, in reality, what the American conversation on this topic is about?
yes I do...I think we both kind of like to wake people up if I read you right?

the world is a volatile place...the earth is groaning on its axis and we (most Christians) long for a better world...I've been just messing around on my guitar a bit and turning to different scriptures...I know, the peace I feel inside at those times, can only come from God....and it's like I see this ideal place in my mind...and the beauty and the rest

it is all we can do to look out from our understanding of God and salvation and the peace that passes all understanding...it is hard to live in this world when you experience Him in such a way that you wish you were there instead of here

what can I say

I understand and I see the world and everything in it will pass away and yet I am still here and I don't think the reality of all of that changes the world as much as it changes us if we let it

probably sounds a little mystic to some, but we cannot reach where our hearts want to be

so, we want to create some heaven on earth....for the peace of our soul if not for those around us...and we say 'if only'
 

Jesus4ever

Senior Member
May 18, 2015
783
19
18

so yeah, Jesus4ever, i understand that there is a more extreme version of what's actually relevant to our current political climate here in this country that's more properly called "socialism" -- thank you, and you are right. do you understand why i think it's important to talk about these things that nationally help the needy though? because that much looser definition of "socialism" is, in reality, what the American conversation on this topic is about?

Well, I´m not American, :D, but yeah, I can see your point. And you both agree that Israel had policies to help those in need. But to say there were a social welfare state in that time or that the Bible sustains any evidence of Socialism is wrong, in my opinion. :)

I guess you guys have been hearing about Portugal and some European countries in the last years, right? Why would that be, I wonder...? :D
 
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jamie26301

Senior Member
May 14, 2011
1,154
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most of what you're talking about is irrelevant to the American political conversation, as i tried to explain. i don't care to talk about it.

but this bit right here - though also completely irrelevant to the current American conversation, and arguably not true at all even in "extreme" socialism:




remember the parable of the workers in the vineyard?

who all got paid the same amount, even though some worked all day, and some only a short time?

Another uncomfortable Scripture!!! What are you doing posthuman???

... ;)