Is modern praise and worship simply a form of conjuring?

[presidente]

I think it's possible. I don't know much about pagan religion or worship, but I've heard people into witchcraft talking about going to church and recognize what is happening there as a kind of magic.

I suppose you can take any form of religion- quote the bible a bit, and *poof* you have painted your tomb white.

There were ancient Greeks who tried to explain all religions based on their pantheon. So they'd describe the Jewish temple ceremonies as being dedicated to this god or that... of the Greek pantheon.

These same pagans might read Biblical texts and describe them as magic and such. I was on a forum where prophecy... prophecy in the Bible... was labeled 'divination.'

If you took a pagan from a jungle somewhere to your church, and he said the rythm used was the same one used in his village to conjure up spirits of the dead, does that mean the hymn you sang was evil? No, not necessarily.

We should not treat pagans like they have some special discernment regarding what is true.

 

[Nehemiah6]

These same pagans might read Biblical texts and describe them as magic and such. I was on a forum where prophecy... prophecy in the Bible... was labeled 'divination.'

Well I had someone on this forum telling me that I was practicing divination and fortune telling when all I was doing was explicating Bible prophesy!

 

[presidente]

Beware lest this be true of some of the posters of this forum:

Titus 1:15
Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

One of my concerns is the quickness and ease with which certain posters are willing to accuse people who have faith in Christ who speak of the Holy Spirit of engaging with another spirit.

We read this in Luke 11

11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

 

[presidente]

Look, here's the thing. The point is this.

Prolonged praise and worship that puts people into a sort of hypnotic-like state is a counterfeit. People think they're calling on God; they believe the Holy Spirit responds because they start feeling warm and fuzzy;

It would be rare indeed that someone singing praise and worship music falls into a 'hypnotic state.' That's kind of a secular bit of terminology. The Bible does mention trances. Peter went into one while praying on a housetop. Paul went into a trance while praying in the temple and the Lord spoke to him.

I might feel warm and fuzzy listening to something nostalgic like 'O Come all ye faithful' or 'Joy to the World.' Do you think these songs are evil if they make me feel warm and fuzzy?

Can you show me where the Bible warns us against going into hypnotic states while singing praise songs? Where are the warnings in scripture against feeling warm and fuzzy? Do you have any concerns that have anything at all to do with the teachings of the Bible?

 

[CherieR]

Look, here's the thing. The point is this.

Prolonged praise and worship that puts people into a sort of hypnotic-like state is a counterfeit. People think they're calling on God; they believe the Holy Spirit responds because they start feeling warm and fuzzy; they believe it's real because that's what they've been told or that's what they want to believe. But they're not really praising God nor are they receiving from the Holy Spirit. It's all an exercise in self-indulgence. They're calling things out of themselves that they misinterpret as God or the Holy Spirit.

You can't say some forms of this sort of thing good and others bad. The whole thing's a sham from start to finish.

I have a couple of questions. What would you consider good worship verses counterfeit? Also what are you referring to by prolonged praise that brings people in a kinda like a hypnotic state?

I have been to churches with modern Christian music and also churches with more traditional music. I didn’t see anyone in a hypnotic like state during the worship music.

 

[Aidan1]

How does God answer prayers if, according to you, He's trapped inside your body?

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit lives in you?

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Do we command our spouses to have dinner with us? Or do we invite

Anyway, the Lord sees our heart. So we can pray in any way to Him.
I am not putting a ban on all other forms of prayer. I only said that the NT church teaches to pray in first line to the father and to give Him honour.
I cant see, that the father is honoured in praising the Holy Spirit.
If i want praise the father, then i Adress the praise to him. And not to the Holy Spirit who is sent from the father.

I don't think anyone is doing that. Praising The Holy Spirit. They are praising BY The Holy Spirit.
Calling on his presence isn't praising HIM. It's asking him. Requesting his help.
It's ok to say you want the The Holy Spirit to direct your worship,ask for his presence and tell him you like it.

Just because Jesus told us he is present when we gather in his name doesn't mean we shouldn't say
we want him ever again.

Do we tell our spouses we love them on our wedding day but never say it again for the next 30 years?

 

[Anthony55]

At many charismatic churches, praise and worship can last from 30 to 45 minutes or even longer. The supposed purpose of this is to "call down" the Holy Spirit. But does the Holy Spirit really need to be called down, or is this just a way to get people into an emotional state of pleasure and receptivity? Does this sort of thing honor God or are we honoring the creature more than the Creator?

One song that comes to mind is Kari Jobe's "Holy Spirit." The reason I remember it is because the lyrics are clearly an invitation to the Spirit to fall, or come down. Here's the live video.

Virtually every charismatic church and especially megachurches use music to get the audience "in the mood." Maybe we should consider who or what is actually being conjured by this.

First Jesus said, "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not the Comforter will not come unto you. And when He is come He will reprove the world of sin, and of judgement. Of sin, because they believe not on me. Of righteousness, because I goto the Father, and ye see me no more; I have many things to say to you but you cannot bare them now. Howbeit when He, then Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will show you things to come. John 16:7 to 13.
Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are differences of operations , but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom,; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit. to another faith by the same Spirit; to another; to another the gift of healing by the same Spirit To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another the discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues. But all these worketh that one same Spirit, dividing to every man severally AS HE WILL. I Cor: 4 to 11.

The Spirit is constantly here. You plug in a lamp and the it lights up. This because the circuit is constant. However as it is written above. Dividing to every man severally AS HE WILL. There are life changing testimonies how the Spirit instantly changed a person. You don't need music to call the Spirit. However it does not hurt to have music as long it is there to glorify God. Like Mighty to Save. How can you not get emotional an fill the air with your love for God. There are so many songs that have been written that are inspired by the Spirit. Like Amazing Grace.

Psalms means a sacred song or hymns. Psalms 98:4 make a joyful noise unto the Lord, all you earth: make a loud noise and rejoice, and sing praise. 5. Sing unto the Lord with the harp; and the voice of a psalm etc. Psalms 100:1 Make a joyful noise unto the Lord, all ye lands. 2 Serve the Lord with gladness; come before His presence with singing.

Check out Fanny J. Crosby, who was blind as an infant. Started writing verse at eight years old. She wrote over 8,000 hymns. Blessed Assurance, All the Way my Savior Leads, Close to Thee.

Sending Blessings to you.

 

[Aidan1]

That first video is shocking. God doesn’t need human permission to act. To suggest that God needs our permission is utterly false. The idea tries to lower the sovereignty of God and elevate people.

Its not only shocking. It makes human ruling over God. Thats satanic teaching.

 

[Aidan1]

Do we command our spouses to have dinner with us? Or do we invite


I don't think anyone is doing that. Praising The Holy Spirit. They are praising BY The Holy Spirit.
Calling on his presence isn't praising HIM. It's asking him. Requesting his help.
It's ok to say you want the The Holy Spirit to direct your worship,ask for his presence and tell him you like it.

Just because Jesus told us he is present when we gather in his name doesn't mean we shouldn't say
we want him ever again.

Do we tell our spouses we love them on our wedding day but never say it again for the next 30 years?

Would you invite your spouse who is already sitting at the table for Diner and repeating 1ü or more times: come for dinner, come for dinner, come for dinner........
What he would think?

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Would you invite your spouse who is already sitting at the table for Diner and repeating 1ü or more times: come for dinner, come for dinner, come for dinner........
What he would think?

The marriage relationship has a more intimate & dynamic aspect to it than mere dinner.
So too our reltionship with God. Even more so.

 

[Runningman]

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit lives in you?

Yes. The Holy Spirit of God is in all believers at the same time. The Holy Spirit of God is also present externally.

Do you believe that when two or more are gathered in the name of Jesus that Jesus is literally there among them? If yes that's great, but wait a minute. How is Jesus is thousands of different places at the same time? This is about the omnipresence of God. As humans this is difficult to understand since our consciousness is confined to the geographical location of our body.

Like the Holy Spirit descending upon Jesus at His baptism, or Jesus appearing to Paul on the road to Damascus, or the Father speaking with a loud voice from Heaven, God can manifest in literal and tangible ways.

What's wrong with asking God to come down? Don't you want Him to come down and fill the room with His manifest presence or not?

 

[Aidan1]

First Jesus said, "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not the Comforter will not come unto you. And when He is come He will reprove the world of sin, and of judgement. Of sin, because they believe not on me. Of righteousness, because I goto the Father, and ye see me no more; I have many things to say to you but you cannot bare them now. Howbeit when He, then Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will show you things to come. John 16:7 to 13.
Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are differences of operations , but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom,; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit. to another faith by the same Spirit; to another; to another the gift of healing by the same Spirit To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another the discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues. But all these worketh that one same Spirit, dividing to every man severally AS HE WILL. I Cor: 4 to 11.

The Spirit is constantly here. You plug in a lamp and the it lights up. This because the circuit is constant. However as it is written above. Dividing to every man severally AS HE WILL. There are life changing testimonies how the Spirit instantly changed a person. You don't need music to call the Spirit. However it does not hurt to have music as long it is there to glorify God. Like Mighty to Save. How can you not get emotional an fill the air with your love for God. There are so many songs that have been written that are inspired by the Spirit. Like Amazing Grace.

Psalms means a sacred song or hymns. Psalms 98:4 make a joyful noise unto the Lord, all you earth: make a loud noise and rejoice, and sing praise. 5. Sing unto the Lord with the harp; and the voice of a psalm etc. Psalms 100:1 Make a joyful noise unto the Lord, all ye lands. 2 Serve the Lord with gladness; come before His presence with singing.

Check out Fanny J. Crosby, who was blind as an infant. Started writing verse at eight years old. She wrote over 8,000 hymns. Blessed Assurance, All the Way my Savior Leads, Close to Thee.

Sending Blessings to you.

Amazing grace is adressed to God. If the Holy Spirit inspire a Song then to praise God the father. Not to praise himself. Thats the different. A Song who gives praise to the Holy Spirit honors Him, but not God the father.
I woud say this will not come from the Holy Spirit.
If you read the NT then you will read that all the praises which are mentioned are for to honor God the father.
Correct me if I am wrong!

 

[Aidan1]

The marriage relationship has a more intimate & dynamic aspect to it than mere dinner.
So too our reltionship with God. Even more so.

Sorry, you gave this example first
Thats why we dont have to call the Holy Spirit down to us, he is already in us.

 

[Aidan1]

Yes. The Holy Spirit of God is in all believers at the same time. The Holy Spirit of God is also present externally.

Do you believe that when two or more are gathered in the name of Jesus that Jesus is literally there among them? If yes that's great, but wait a minute. How is Jesus is thousands of different places at the same time? This is about the omnipresence of God. As humans this is difficult to understand since our consciousness is confined to the geographical location of our body.

Like the Holy Spirit descending upon Jesus at His baptism, or Jesus appearing to Paul on the road to Damascus, or the Father speaking with a loud voice from Heaven, God can manifest in literal and tangible ways.

What's wrong with asking God to come down? Don't you want Him to come down and fill the room with His manifest presence or not?

Your example that the Holy Spirit came down to Jesus was before pentecost.
Since pentecost the Holy Spirit lieves in the bornagain believer
The thing is, i am ready that he filles my life?
I dont need a manifest presence in a room.
Thats only for our benefit and feeling, but not for to praise God our father. Its selfish!

 

[Runningman]

Your example that the Holy Spirit came down to Jesus was before pentecost.
Since pentecost the Holy Spirit lieves in the bornagain believer
The thing is, i am ready that he filles my life?
I dont need a manifest presence in a room.
Thats only for our benefit and feeling, but not for to praise God our father. Its selfish!

Do you tell children their selfish when they cry for their daddy? God is our Father and we can ask Him for anything and because He loves us there is no awkward record keeping of what's right or wrong because in love there is only purity.

It seems possible you're missing out on a crucial aspect of Christian living: a relationship with your Father.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Sorry, you gave this example first
Thats why we dont have to call the Holy Spirit down to us, he is already in us.

 

[ResidentAlien]

I understand the point that you seem to be trying to make

LOL. . .I don't seem to be trying, I've made the point multiple times in multiple ways. It's others who can't comprehend it. Maybe it's over their heads. I don't mean that in a condescending way, I just mean maybe it's a new concept they don't have any background knowledge of or never thought of before.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Show me where the Bible warns about hypnosis occurring during singing songs of praise to the Lord.

Seriously? It says to be sober. A hypnotic state is about as unsober as it gets.

 

[ResidentAlien]

It is not for you to determine whether this is true or not, since you do not know what is in the hearts of these people. Only God knows hearts and only God is the one who will decide. In the meantime, confine yourself to the church where you are most comfortable, and leave other Christians to their own kinds of worship.

The Lord warned about false teachers and false religion. He's our example, so I do as He did.