Is Messiah,(The Anointed One) the Father?

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JohnTalmid

Senior Member
Mar 17, 2017
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J...

While we are on earth and before physical death and G-d's judgement of our righteous life ........it is pure poopy cock thinking.

After G-d passes judgement and awards eternal salvation...it is permanent.

That is where so many often get mixed up.
If you have nothing to Hope for what's the point? We have been given a certain Hope of Salvation to come not salvation now, unless you walk in it...
 
Sep 4, 2012
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Deu. 22:6
If you come across a bird’s nest with chicks or eggs, either in a tree or on the ground along the road, and the mother is sitting on the chicks or eggs, you must not take the mother along with the young
I know that verse is there, but that says something different than what you said.
 

JohnTalmid

Senior Member
Mar 17, 2017
516
44
28
J...

While we are on earth and before physical death and G-d's judgement of our righteous life ........it is pure poopy cock thinking.

After G-d passes judgement and awards eternal salvation...it is permanent.

That is where so many often get mixed up.
If you have nothing to Hope for what's the point? We have been given a certain Hope of Salvation to come not salvation now, unless you walk in it..
 

OstrichSmiling

Well-known member
Jun 17, 2018
1,027
418
83
There is not a verse in scripture that tells the faithful reading it that they are to hope for their salvation.
Luke 10:See, I have given you authority to tread on snakes and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy. Nothing will harm you. 20Nevertheless, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.” 21At that time, Jesus rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and declared, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was well-pleasing in Your sight.


Our Hope is not the Salvation of the Soul.
The Redeemer's Return — Arthur W. Pink

In the New Testament the word "Salvation" has a threefold scope -- past, present and future, which, respectively, has reference to our deliverance from the penalty, the power, and the presence of sin. When we say, above, that our Hope is not the Salvation of the soul, we mean that it is not our deliverance from the wrath to come which is the prospect God sets before His people. To certain of our readers it may appear almost a wearisome waste of time for us to discuss these points, but for the sake of the class for which this work is specially designed we would ask them to bear with us in patience. In these days when the Bible is so grievously neglected both in the pulpit and in the pew, we cannot afford to take anything for granted. Multitudes of those in our churches are ignorant of the most elementary truths of the Christian faith. Experience shows that comparatively few people are clear about even the A, B, C, of the Gospel. Talk to the average church-member, and only too often it will be found that he has nothing more than a vague and uncertain hope about his personal salvation. He is "trying to live up to the light that he has," he is "doing his best," and he hopes that, somehow, everything will come out right in the end. He does not dare to say I know I have passed from death unto life, but he hopes to go to Heaven at the last.

Nowhere does Scripture present the Salvation of the soul as the believer's hope. Salvation from the guilt, the penalty, the wages, of sin is something for which believers thank God even now. Said our Lord to His disciples, "Rejoice, because your names are written in heaven" (Luke 10:20). The present-tense aspect of our salvation is presented in many Scriptures -- "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word and believeth on Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death to life" (John 5:24). How simple and definite this is! Eternal life is something which every believer in Christ already possesses, and for him there is no possibility of future condemnation in the sense of having to endure God's wrath. Again we read, "Beloved now are we the sons of God" (1 John 3:2). We do not have to obey God's commandments, walk worthy, and serve the Lord, in order to become God's children, we are to do these things because we are, already, members of the household of faith. The salvation or redemption of our bodies is future, for it will not be until our Saviour's return that he "shall" change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body" (Phil.3:21). But the salvation of the soul, deliverance from the wrath to come, is an accomplished fact for every sinner, that has received the Lord Jesus Christ as his or her personal Saviour. All such have been "accepted in the Beloved" (Eph.1:6). All such have been "made meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light" (Col.1:12). all such have been "perfected for ever" (Heb.10:14). So far as their standing before God is concerned.

As another has said, "Salvation is not away off yonder at the gates of Heaven; salvation is at the cross. The grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared, and it brings salvation all the way down to where the sinner is -- right there. You know our Lord's own picture of it. It is the illustration to which my mind recurs most instantly -- that illustration of the good Samaritan. You know how beautifully that shadows out this blessed truth; that just as the good Samaritan went down the Jericho road and ministered to the wretch who lay there half dead, pouring oil into his wounds right there where he lay, just so the grace of God, that brings salvation, has come to the sinner in the place where he lies in his sins. No matter how great a sinner he may be, if he can be persuaded to turn the eye of faith toward the cross, there salvation comes" (Dr. C. I. Scofield).
Scripture Reference
 

JohnTalmid

Senior Member
Mar 17, 2017
516
44
28
There is not a verse in scripture that tells the faithful reading it that they are to hope for their salvation.
Luke 10:See, I have given you authority to tread on snakes and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy. Nothing will harm you. 20Nevertheless, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.” 21At that time, Jesus rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and declared, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was well-pleasing in Your sight.


Our Hope is not the Salvation of the Soul.
The Redeemer's Return — Arthur W. Pink

In the New Testament the word "Salvation" has a threefold scope -- past, present and future, which, respectively, has reference to our deliverance from the penalty, the power, and the presence of sin. When we say, above, that our Hope is not the Salvation of the soul, we mean that it is not our deliverance from the wrath to come which is the prospect God sets before His people. To certain of our readers it may appear almost a wearisome waste of time for us to discuss these points, but for the sake of the class for which this work is specially designed we would ask them to bear with us in patience. In these days when the Bible is so grievously neglected both in the pulpit and in the pew, we cannot afford to take anything for granted. Multitudes of those in our churches are ignorant of the most elementary truths of the Christian faith. Experience shows that comparatively few people are clear about even the A, B, C, of the Gospel. Talk to the average church-member, and only too often it will be found that he has nothing more than a vague and uncertain hope about his personal salvation. He is "trying to live up to the light that he has," he is "doing his best," and he hopes that, somehow, everything will come out right in the end. He does not dare to say I know I have passed from death unto life, but he hopes to go to Heaven at the last.

Nowhere does Scripture present the Salvation of the soul as the believer's hope. Salvation from the guilt, the penalty, the wages, of sin is something for which believers thank God even now. Said our Lord to His disciples, "Rejoice, because your names are written in heaven" (Luke 10:20). The present-tense aspect of our salvation is presented in many Scriptures -- "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word and believeth on Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death to life" (John 5:24). How simple and definite this is! Eternal life is something which every believer in Christ already possesses, and for him there is no possibility of future condemnation in the sense of having to endure God's wrath. Again we read, "Beloved now are we the sons of God" (1 John 3:2). We do not have to obey God's commandments, walk worthy, and serve the Lord, in order to become God's children, we are to do these things because we are, already, members of the household of faith. The salvation or redemption of our bodies is future, for it will not be until our Saviour's return that he "shall" change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body" (Phil.3:21). But the salvation of the soul, deliverance from the wrath to come, is an accomplished fact for every sinner, that has received the Lord Jesus Christ as his or her personal Saviour. All such have been "accepted in the Beloved" (Eph.1:6). All such have been "made meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light" (Col.1:12). all such have been "perfected for ever" (Heb.10:14). So far as their standing before God is concerned.

As another has said, "Salvation is not away off yonder at the gates of Heaven; salvation is at the cross. The grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared, and it brings salvation all the way down to where the sinner is -- right there. You know our Lord's own picture of it. It is the illustration to which my mind recurs most instantly -- that illustration of the good Samaritan. You know how beautifully that shadows out this blessed truth; that just as the good Samaritan went down the Jericho road and ministered to the wretch who lay there half dead, pouring oil into his wounds right there where he lay, just so the grace of God, that brings salvation, has come to the sinner in the place where he lies in his sins. No matter how great a sinner he may be, if he can be persuaded to turn the eye of faith toward the cross, there salvation comes" (Dr. C. I. Scofield).
Scripture Reference
It looks like you may be confusing sanctification and salvation. Salvation is also not redemption. We are redeemed by the blood, sanctified through the word, and hope for the certain salvation to come.
What scripture comes against this teaching?

P. S. Putting Dr. In front of a name doesn't make you the authority of scripture. People would like to know what you think not what others have said. I'm more concerned that you hadn't heard of the certain Hope of Salvation to come. You have heard of it as the resurrection of the dead I'm sure.
 

OstrichSmiling

Well-known member
Jun 17, 2018
1,027
418
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It looks like you may be confusing sanctification and salvation. Salvation is also not redemption. We are redeemed by the blood, sanctified through the word, and hope for the certain salvation to come.
What scripture comes against this teaching?
Thank you for your thoughts. However, I am not confused.
 

OstrichSmiling

Well-known member
Jun 17, 2018
1,027
418
83
Thank you for your thoughts. However, I am not confused.
Because an edit may afford me to run out of time in the allotted five minutes for that, I thought I'd post this separately.
Reading you JohnTalmid, I got to thinking perhaps your question would need be addressed in full for those who need the scriptures. So thank you again for your post. :) Though there are two other key factors you did not mention. A mere unintentional oversight I am sure.

What is the difference between salvation, sanctification, justification and righteousness?



There are many “spiritual blessings” that are imparted to the sinner the moment he trusts in the Lord Jesus Christ as savior. These are four of those blessings and although they are vitally connected, they do differ and we do well to know what those differences are. Let’s look at each of them briefly.

Salvation means “deliverance.” In John 10:9 Jesus said, “I am the door: by Me if any man enter in he shall be saved.” When we see ourselves as sinners and put our trust in the Lord Jesus Christ as our savior, He delivers us from the penalty of our sins. In other words, He delivers us from hell! We can then say, on the authority of God’s Word, “I’m saved.” Ephesians 2:8 bears testimony to this wonderful truth, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. There is also a present aspect of salvation from the power of sin and a future aspect of salvation from the presence of sin. We experience deliverance from sin’s power through Christ living for us in the glory and we will have deliverance from the very presence of sin when Christ comes to take us home to glory.

Sanctification means “to be set apart.” There are two ways in which the believer in Christ is sanctified, or “set apart.” We are sanctified once and for all through the atoning work of Christ. Hebrews 10:10 states, “By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.” We call this ‘positional sanctification’ because we are set apart to God “in Christ.” Our position in Christ will never change! There is also ‘practical sanctification’, where our lives are set apart to God daily through the Word of God. Jesus prayed for this in John 17:17, “Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy word is truth.” As we study God’s Word and obey it, we will experience this sanctification practically in our lives. This sanctification will go on until the Rapture; then we shall be completely sanctified, for we will then be perfectly holy in both position and practice, totally and eternally set apart to God.

Justification means “to be declared righteous.” In Romans 3:10 and 19 God declares, “There is none righteous, no, not one” and “all the world may become guilty before God.” Because of sin, we are not “right with God” and He has pronounced everyone “guilty.” As guilty sinners we deserve death and judgment but because Christ took our place in death and judgment on the cross, God can now “declare the believing sinner righteous” or “NOT guilty.” Romans 3:26 says, “To declare, I say, at this time His righteousness: that He might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.” What a marvel of God’s grace! God looks at us now as “not guilty” even though we have sinned, for He sees us in all the value of the work His Son accomplished on the cross. This brings us to our next word, righteousness.

Righteousness means “the quality of being right or just.” This is obviously closely linked with justification, for we saw that justification was “to be declared righteous.” The difference between the two is this, God can “declare us righteous” because He “sees us righteous in His Son.” To help us understand this let’s read 2 Corinthians 5:21, “For He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.” On the cross Jesus took our sins upon Himself and bore the judgment due to those sins. God treated Jesus as if He were the sinner, though He was absolutely holy. Now God can look at the sinner who believes on Jesus Christ and treat us as if we were holy, though in truth we are not holy. How can He do this? Because He sees us in all the value of Christ’s work on the cross, with our sins forever put away. Thus we are now “made the righteousness of God in Him.” We are now “right or just” in God’s sight! Praise be to God for what He has made us to be in Christ! And praise be to the Lord Jesus for being willing to be treated as the sinner on the cross so we could be treated as righteous before a thrice holy God! (164.9) (DO)
 

JohnTalmid

Senior Member
Mar 17, 2017
516
44
28
Because an edit may afford me to run out of time in the allotted five minutes for that, I thought I'd post this separately.
Reading you JohnTalmid, I got to thinking perhaps your question would need be addressed in full for those who need the scriptures. So thank you again for your post. :) Though there are two other key factors you did not mention. A mere unintentional oversight I am sure.

What is the difference between salvation, sanctification, justification and righteousness?



There are many “spiritual blessings” that are imparted to the sinner the moment he trusts in the Lord Jesus Christ as savior. These are four of those blessings and although they are vitally connected, they do differ and we do well to know what those differences are. Let’s look at each of them briefly.

Salvation means “deliverance.” In John 10:9 Jesus said, “I am the door: by Me if any man enter in he shall be saved.” When we see ourselves as sinners and put our trust in the Lord Jesus Christ as our savior, He delivers us from the penalty of our sins. In other words, He delivers us from hell! We can then say, on the authority of God’s Word, “I’m saved.” Ephesians 2:8 bears testimony to this wonderful truth, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. There is also a present aspect of salvation from the power of sin and a future aspect of salvation from the presence of sin. We experience deliverance from sin’s power through Christ living for us in the glory and we will have deliverance from the very presence of sin when Christ comes to take us home to glory.

Sanctification means “to be set apart.” There are two ways in which the believer in Christ is sanctified, or “set apart.” We are sanctified once and for all through the atoning work of Christ. Hebrews 10:10 states, “By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.” We call this ‘positional sanctification’ because we are set apart to God “in Christ.” Our position in Christ will never change! There is also ‘practical sanctification’, where our lives are set apart to God daily through the Word of God. Jesus prayed for this in John 17:17, “Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy word is truth.” As we study God’s Word and obey it, we will experience this sanctification practically in our lives. This sanctification will go on until the Rapture; then we shall be completely sanctified, for we will then be perfectly holy in both position and practice, totally and eternally set apart to God.

Justification means “to be declared righteous.” In Romans 3:10 and 19 God declares, “There is none righteous, no, not one” and “all the world may become guilty before God.” Because of sin, we are not “right with God” and He has pronounced everyone “guilty.” As guilty sinners we deserve death and judgment but because Christ took our place in death and judgment on the cross, God can now “declare the believing sinner righteous” or “NOT guilty.” Romans 3:26 says, “To declare, I say, at this time His righteousness: that He might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.” What a marvel of God’s grace! God looks at us now as “not guilty” even though we have sinned, for He sees us in all the value of the work His Son accomplished on the cross. This brings us to our next word, righteousness.

(DO)
Were is redemption?
 

OstrichSmiling

Well-known member
Jun 17, 2018
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Okay then what does, "I required mercy rather than sacrifice" mean?
What does the point come to in scripture I mean... Txs
The same thing it meant in Hosea 6 and verse 6.
Matthew 6 in context of course relates Jesus' calling of Matthew the tax collector to his number. And those who would wonder how a tax collector would be deemed worthy of the calling of Jesus to follow him. Something we all may wonder as we know our personal history to the last. Why would God call me?
9As Jesus went on from there, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax collector’s booth. “Follow me,” he told him, and Matthew got up and followed him.

10While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew’s house, many tax collectors and sinners came and ate with him and his disciples. 11When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?”

12On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Animal blood sacrifice merely covered sins in the old covenant tradition. Jesus came to show mercy to the worlds people, his people, the old covenant tribes, after generations of sacrifice for their sins. He wished to show mercy by example. Matthew , a Jew, a tax collector, would have been despised by his people for serving in that capacity for the Romans. Matthew knew himself to be a sinner. Jesus knew him to be a man worthy of mercy. Because he came to save all "Matthews" that are in the world. That branch that blossoms from the tree of mercy is charity.
That second command Jesus taught? Upon which all the laws and the prophets hang? Love your neighbor , brother, as yourself. Jesus' mercy and charity wrapped Matthew in forgiveness for his sins. It wasn't the ceremonial expression, killing an animal to cover the sins of Matthew. It was the last great unblemished sacrifice for the worlds sins, the propitiation sent by God, that called Matthew by name knowing his heart.
 

JohnTalmid

Senior Member
Mar 17, 2017
516
44
28
Messiah redeemed us and this is what many call justification. I blame bad translation for the misunderstood concept of justification. For example, it has been taught incorrectly that if one prays the sinners prayer you are then justified in your sin before Elohim. This is not true. We are redeemed by the blood and our belief in the finished work of Messiah. Grace is not without order. In order to continue to run the race we must be convinced that our sin's must cease. We can't do it people teach. It's not possible others say to obey.
The word of Elohim is not so hard that we can't do it. It's a matter of fact that it is in our mouths so that we would do it.
Once we do practice the commandments of YHWH Elohim the Father we find they do have a purpose. We are meant to be lead by the Holy Spirt into all truth. It is through sanctification that we find the work of the Spirit at work in us who believe. Doing the command does not save me, however if it wasn't for that instruction I would not have known that it is a sin to murder, and without the testimony of Messiah I would have never realized on my own that the law is spiritual. It is written that the law is of the Spirit and sin is violation of the law. The beginning of wisdom is fear YHWH. The fulfillment of fear of YHWH Elohim is to obey. A better way has been placed before us now. We are to love the Father because he sent a redeemer for us. Because we are redeemed by faith through grace doesn't mean we have no responsibility or proper response in the redemption given. What does scripture say is righteousness? Righteousness is what is correct according to the Word of Elohim. Scripture also says, "he who practices righteousness is righteous."

By the way, when are you going to answer any of my questions?
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
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Once Saved Always Saved is a false doctrine or at least very misunderstood
Do really think what I have come to understand has blown up your OSAS doctrine?
Salvation is by Faith through grace. I wonder if you believe in the sanctification work we are to be partakers and active members of. Are you a doer or just a person who hears the word of Elohim? Show me your faith without works and I'll show you my faith by my works. Is repentance a one time thing? Is Messiah your Sabbath or is Sabbath a day? Does the command that says you should not murder have as much weight in your walk as, "don't gather the eggs with the mother hen present"? How about offering a proper sacrifice and obey the Father's instructions?

I have many more questions than that bit I didn't want to boil a baby goat in its mothers milk...;-)
j...,
Correct...and you got them hot in the milk.
Keep it up....they are wrong with this OSAS thing ....and must be an embarrassment to G-d, because, additionally, it makes no common sense..
 

JohnTalmid

Senior Member
Mar 17, 2017
516
44
28
You're replying to your own quote there and with no relevancy to that which is quoted.
You quoted Roman's 3...
I simply quoted the point of Roman's 3... That we Are to confirm the Law or Word of Elohim by Faith. Simply because you are justified through the Messiah's sacrifice doesn't mean we should continue in sin or to perpetuate the lie that we can't try to practice righteousness. We do and I mean must make it clear that righteousness doesn't come from the Law, it comes still by Faith. What I mean is if we practice righteousness and think because I do this or that in "practice" that makes me righteous, we would be wrong. Righteousness comes through faith as redemption does however we have more to do with our sanctification through doing, (practicing) than is accepted by mainstream Christianity.
Most sheeple don't know what the difference is between anillusion and allusion.

P. S. The reason. I mentioned Calvin is because there are many errors perpetuated by false doctrine of men as doctrine of scripture that have lead many down the wrong path... Siencearly John Talmid