Is marking of Mark of the Beast is literal or just figurative?
- Thread starter just_truth
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Is this the same covenant in your mind? https://biblehub.com/interlinear/acts/15-11.htm
I won't say its the same.
Peter saw God saving the gentiles independent of Israel during his meeting with Cornelius. That astonished him and planted the first seed in his mind that Israel is no longer God's favored nation.
Based on that, he suggested to the council that Jews are now to be saved, as the Gentiles are now, the famous vs 11 that everyone knows how to quote.
But if you read the conclusion at the end of the Council, James only exempted Gentiles from the Law. The question on whether Jews are to be exempted too was not even in the agenda, and that conclusion was further confirmed in Acts 21:20-25.
Peter saw God saving the gentiles independent of Israel during his meeting with Cornelius. That astonished him and planted the first seed in his mind that Israel is no longer God's favored nation.
Based on that, he suggested to the council that Jews are now to be saved, as the Gentiles are now, the famous vs 11 that everyone knows how to quote.
But if you read the conclusion at the end of the Council, James only exempted Gentiles from the Law. The question on whether Jews are to be exempted too was not even in the agenda, and that conclusion was further confirmed in Acts 21:20-25.
-
1
- Show all
Here are your words from post 162:
"Full Preterism teaches that the events of Matthew 24 and Revelation has already been fulfilled, including the resurrection. That would immediately put them in the Hymeneus and Philetus group, which means that what preterists teach is godless chatter, will spread like gangrene (and has) and that they have wandered from the truth."
You begin the paragraph talking about "full preterists". Then you state, "what preterists teach is godless chatter". That's equivocation. You may have been thinking, "what full preterists teach is godless chatter" but you didn't write that.
You might think that I'm being unnecessarily picky. That's okay; I'll take that criticism. I'm not the one condemning broad categories of people as heretics.
"Full Preterism teaches that the events of Matthew 24 and Revelation has already been fulfilled, including the resurrection. That would immediately put them in the Hymeneus and Philetus group, which means that what preterists teach is godless chatter, will spread like gangrene (and has) and that they have wandered from the truth."
You begin the paragraph talking about "full preterists". Then you state, "what preterists teach is godless chatter". That's equivocation. You may have been thinking, "what full preterists teach is godless chatter" but you didn't write that.
You might think that I'm being unnecessarily picky. That's okay; I'll take that criticism. I'm not the one condemning broad categories of people as heretics.
Indeed Paul,James and the others fulfilled the Law as if they saw it and the Temple as valid and that they were to obey it up to Acts 21. As for the gentiles what did they suggest they do? And you are correct Paul,Barnabas nor any of the others brought up that they were under a new covenant and that circumcision and following the law did not apply to them.
Paul fulfilled the Law because he wanted to win the Jews for Christ (1 Cor 9:20), even though he believed that circumcision results in Christ profiting one nothing (Galatians 5:2).
As for James and the other Jews, they see themselves still under the gospel of the kingdom, where faith without works was dead (James 2)
Gentile believers, as I have stated, they were exempted from the Law of Moses, by the conclusion of Acts 15.
As for James and the other Jews, they see themselves still under the gospel of the kingdom, where faith without works was dead (James 2)
Gentile believers, as I have stated, they were exempted from the Law of Moses, by the conclusion of Acts 15.
-
1
- Show all
Exodus 12:
48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.
Gentiles who wanted to believe in God during OT times must be circumcised and made to keep the Law of Moses.
Those guys who said that in Acts 15:1 were actually correct, if the grace dispensation had not already begun (Ephesians 3:9)
48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.
Gentiles who wanted to believe in God during OT times must be circumcised and made to keep the Law of Moses.
Those guys who said that in Acts 15:1 were actually correct, if the grace dispensation had not already begun (Ephesians 3:9)
-
1
- Show all
Paul was teaching the Gentiles that they were saved by faith apart from the Law of Moses.
The apostles and the other Jewish believers did not believe that was possible since no one, not the resurrected Christ, ever told them that the Law no longer holds.
Only after Acts 15, they agreed that Gentiles who believed can be exempted from the Law.
As to why they still want to see themselves under the Law, well the Law marked them as God's favored nation. They grew up memorizing the Law and it forms part of their identity.
A close analogy I can think of is how there will be some Americans who are very proud of their Constitution. If there is anyone who ever tell them "The constitution is now invalid", it might spark some averse reactions from these Americans.
The apostles and the other Jewish believers did not believe that was possible since no one, not the resurrected Christ, ever told them that the Law no longer holds.
Only after Acts 15, they agreed that Gentiles who believed can be exempted from the Law.
As to why they still want to see themselves under the Law, well the Law marked them as God's favored nation. They grew up memorizing the Law and it forms part of their identity.
A close analogy I can think of is how there will be some Americans who are very proud of their Constitution. If there is anyone who ever tell them "The constitution is now invalid", it might spark some averse reactions from these Americans.
-
1
- Show all
And so in Revelation 14:6 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/14-6.htm an angel preaches a gospel and it's different from the one in Genesis 9, the law of Moses and the gospel of grace that Paul preached? Is Paul's gospel the everlasting gospel or will the angel in Revelation 14:6 replace it with another?
If you believe in the distinction between the gospel of the kingdom and the gospel of grace, I believe it will be the gospel of the kingdom that will be preached during the Tribulation.
Jesus stated that in Matthew 24
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Jesus stated that in Matthew 24
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
-
1
- Show all
If you believe in the distinction between the gospel of the kingdom and the gospel of grace, I believe it will be the gospel of the kingdom that will be preached during the Tribulation.
Jesus stated that in Matthew 24
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes."
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Jesus stated that in Matthew 24
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes."
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
So you don't see the "gospel of grace" and the "everlasting gospel" as the same thing so the gospel of grace will be replaced at some point in the future by the everlasting gospel?
As I said the term gospel, on its own, only means good news.
In the current dispensation of grace, the gospel of grace spelt out in 1 Cor 15:1-4 tells all of us, Jews and Gentiles, how one can be saved.
But this dispensation will come to an end, once the final Gentile is included in the Body of Christ (Romans 11:25).
Then the dispensation will be over and it will be the gospel of the kingdom once again, during the Tribulation.
In order to be saved by that gospel, not only the Jews needed to believe Jesus is their Messiah, they also need to endure to the end by rejecting the mark of the beast. That is where the classic James point in chapter 2, that faith without works is dead, will be most relevant.
In the current dispensation of grace, the gospel of grace spelt out in 1 Cor 15:1-4 tells all of us, Jews and Gentiles, how one can be saved.
But this dispensation will come to an end, once the final Gentile is included in the Body of Christ (Romans 11:25).
Then the dispensation will be over and it will be the gospel of the kingdom once again, during the Tribulation.
In order to be saved by that gospel, not only the Jews needed to believe Jesus is their Messiah, they also need to endure to the end by rejecting the mark of the beast. That is where the classic James point in chapter 2, that faith without works is dead, will be most relevant.
-
1
- Show all
It's late tonight and so I am turning in and would like to say I enjoyed speaking with you.
You mention "the final gentile is included in the body of Christ" which is curious do you see Revelation 14:6 being preached to every nation,tongue,people kindred ect.? https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/14-6.htm
Who are those who in Revelation 7:9 who come through the tribulation if the final gentile has already been included? https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/7-9.htm
-
1
- Show all
Well, I have come across people on the Internet who have this view that, even if one does not accept Jesus in his grace now, there will still be a second chance for him during the 7 year Tribulation. I think movies like "Left Behind" has led to such thoughts.
I personally think that all Gentiles that are left behind during the rapture, all of them will end up worshipping the beast and have his mark.
This is not scriptural of course, but my point is that there is no second chance for a gentile who do not take the opportunity during this present grace dispensation, to be saved.
Or there might be, but it will be way harder for one to get saved during the 7 years. God promised Israel that, when the Jews do flee to the mountains to avoid the Anti-christ's persecution, he will feed them supernaturally, probably the same way as those ravens that fed Elijiah.
I personally think that all Gentiles that are left behind during the rapture, all of them will end up worshipping the beast and have his mark.
This is not scriptural of course, but my point is that there is no second chance for a gentile who do not take the opportunity during this present grace dispensation, to be saved.
Or there might be, but it will be way harder for one to get saved during the 7 years. God promised Israel that, when the Jews do flee to the mountains to avoid the Anti-christ's persecution, he will feed them supernaturally, probably the same way as those ravens that fed Elijiah.