Is irresistible grace (effectual calling) a biblical doctrine?

[Whispered]

The two big obstacles to admiring Calvin are a chill authoritarianism and his repulsive doctrine of double predestination.

Worse, if true, is a doctrine of predestination that puts men and women in eternal fire by God's long-laid plan. It is not that some kind of predestination is untenable. If people go to heaven by God's grace, his gratuitous gift must have been decided from all eternity. That is different from God creating people with the intention of sending them to hell.
Christopher Howse

This one last thing since you brought up Double Predestination.
That can't be laid at the feet of John Calvin as the originator. Rather, it was a 9th century Saxon monk by the name of Gottschalk of Orbais who invented the idea and promoted the teaching. Think of that. Over nine centuries after our Lord departed this world. That isn't of Christ. It is inspired by the other guy. Obviously.

False doctrine breeds false teachers. "Those individuals who end up damned forever in hell are also eternally determined by God for that fate." Ulrich Zwingli 1484-1531

He was a leader of the Reformation in Switzerland and believed in Double Predestination and opposed Baptismal regeneration.
Do we dare imagine the souls lost to such men's false teachings? Then and now?

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Calvin was not a creator god. I would submit he was a spawn of the anti-god.

And come time, John C. shall reap what he sewed. The duty of the Christians who follow the message of the Christ is done, at least as far as this Christian is concerned. Let that which prefers the left path journey forewarned. If God's words cannot reach them, who am I to think I shall have a chance to open eyes sealed by the dry blooms of a dead flower? [Bless you brother if you endure. You are a stronger chiclet than myself.

See what I did there? Humor, in the wake of darkness. LAUGH and the world laughs with you. Cry and the enemy wins. ]

The Book of Revelation chapter 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The Book of Matthew chapter 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

God is love. John C. did not now this.

women were well treated by the disciples...the disciples of Jesus

as a woman, it would be very hard to miss the misogyny included in the threads teaching Calvinism

I am not even insulted....it is more like disbelief that a man who says he knows Christ can have that attitude and teach that attitude and be smug about it to boot

It becomes apparent that Calvinism attracts and keeps those who have a certain type of personality; control and power along with superiority and a false sense of 'having arrived'

so much for humbling yourself before the Lord God Almighty

 

[7seasrekeyed]

This one last thing since you brought up Double Predestination.
That can't be laid at the feet of John Calvin as the originator. Rather, it was a 9th century Saxon monk by the name of Gottschalk of Orbais who invented the idea and promoted the teaching. Think of that. Over nine centuries after our Lord departed this world. That isn't of Christ. It is inspired by the other guy. Obviously.

False doctrine breeds false teachers. "Those individuals who end up damned forever in hell are also eternally determined by God for that fate." Ulrich Zwingli 1484-1531

He was a leader of the Reformation in Switzerland and believed in Double Predestination and opposed Baptismal regeneration.
Do we dare imagine the souls lost to such men's false teachings? Then and now?

huh...well good to know...thanks

but yes false begets more of the same...the blinding leading the blind

to date though, not one of Calvin's followers here have answered as to why God should create people for hell when He plainly states that hell was created for the devil and his angels and God is not willing that any should perish

that usually invokes the false response that we believe everyone will be saved and when you plainly state that is not true, you are accused of calling them a liar. well if the shoe fits I guess, but you tried it on and walked around in it, right?

any and all responses save to the actual question I asked that deals directly with scripture and the words of God Himself if we are to believe Him

 

[Whispered]

I'm trying to find a quote I read the other day...from Calvin...wherein he compared women to asses and some other animal and stated that God was punishing the disciples for their unbelief by having women at the tomb and Mary seeing Christ
first

as we take a look at how the Savior these Calvinists say they esteem, treated women and elevated them, the only conclusion that can be reached is that they do not seek to emulate Christ but seek instead to copy their little god and worship him by doing what he did

Here you go and then I'm out. These threads are not good for the health of the heart, mind, or spirit. They are bad fruit.

I conclude, therefore, that Mary was sent to the disciples in general; and I consider that this was done by way of reproach, because they had been so tardy and sluggish to believe. And, indeed, they deserve not only to have women for their teachers, but even oxen and asses; since the Son of God had been so long and laboriously employed in teaching, and yet they had made so little, or hardly any progress. Yet this is a mild and gentle chastisement, when Christ thus sends his disciples to the school of the women, that by their agency, he may bring them back to himself. Here we behold also the inconceivable kindness of Christ, in choosing and appointing women to be the witnesses of his resurrection to the Apostles; for the commission which is given to them is the only foundation of our salvation, and contains the chief point of heavenly wisdom. Calvin's Commentaries John 20

May God bless and protect anyone who wishes to continue to parry with the darkness here.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Here you go and then I'm out. These threads are not good for the health of the heart, mind, or spirit. They are bad fruit.

I conclude, therefore, that Mary was sent to the disciples in general; and I consider that this was done by way of reproach, because they had been so tardy and sluggish to believe. And, indeed, they deserve not only to have women for their teachers, but even oxen and asses; since the Son of God had been so long and laboriously employed in teaching, and yet they had made so little, or hardly any progress. Yet this is a mild and gentle chastisement, when Christ thus sends his disciples to the school of the women, that by their agency, he may bring them back to himself. Here we behold also the inconceivable kindness of Christ, in choosing and appointing women to be the witnesses of his resurrection to the Apostles; for the commission which is given to them is the only foundation of our salvation, and contains the chief point of heavenly wisdom. Calvin's Commentaries John 20

May God bless and protect anyone who wishes to continue to parry with the darkness here.

oh you found it! thanks!

this then is part of the treasured resources offered by Calvinists from Calvin himself

I really don't care to continue either. it's basically arguing with the devil and trying to convince him he has no regard for God

thanks so much for finding the above

 

[ilkinengin76]

God created man for His glory. God loves the man that He has created in His image and likeness. The glory God desires comes from a willing heart not from a heart that can only respond from obligation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

scripture please, save God receive not his glory.

 

[Hevosmies]

Happy Veteran's Day and thanks for serving the country.

I'll answer any more replies to you tomorrow. I wouldn't want to disrespect you today but tomorrow you're fair game.

Hahaha thats funny! You hear that dcon, ITS GAME ON tomorrow.

Thats your reward for serving in the military, NO DISRESPECT for one whole day! Well hey atleast you got those % off in Lowe's and a meal.

 

[Hevosmies]

Here you go and then I'm out. These threads are not good for the health of the heart, mind, or spirit. They are bad fruit.

I conclude, therefore, that Mary was sent to the disciples in general; and I consider that this was done by way of reproach, because they had been so tardy and sluggish to believe. And, indeed, they deserve not only to have women for their teachers, but even oxen and asses; since the Son of God had been so long and laboriously employed in teaching, and yet they had made so little, or hardly any progress. Yet this is a mild and gentle chastisement, when Christ thus sends his disciples to the school of the women, that by their agency, he may bring them back to himself. Here we behold also the inconceivable kindness of Christ, in choosing and appointing women to be the witnesses of his resurrection to the Apostles; for the commission which is given to them is the only foundation of our salvation, and contains the chief point of heavenly wisdom. Calvin's Commentaries John 20

May God bless and protect anyone who wishes to continue to parry with the darkness here.

List of people who care about what Calvin had to say:

-

Yeah im not on the list.

Wait guys Calvin just kicked in the door of my apartment and looks like he is carrying my furniture out, yup its true. I tried protesting he said the gnostics told him to do it, I said I will stop you, he said nah you cant homie its been predestinated, I was like aiight.

Thanks Calvin! Now we know who cast the deciding vote to get Obama his second season in office. You know what they say, whatever happens in Geneva.......

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Hahaha thats funny! You hear that dcon, ITS GAME ON tomorrow.

Thats your reward for serving in the military, NO DISRESPECT for one whole day! Well hey atleast you got those % off in Lowe's and a meal.

Yesterday I thought I'd tell him "I'll make it so easy even a jarhead can understand it" but I decided better because of Veteran's day...

 

[dcontroversal]

Firstly, there are two different wills of God.

One is prescriptive, and the other is decretive.

If God decrees something, it happens for sure.

If God prescribes something, it doesn't always happen.

For instance, God's prescriptive will is that all keep his commandments, but that doesn't happen.

The salvation of the elect is decreed. It will happen because God has decreed it. The Scripture I quoted speaks of their salvation in past tense. God has already given those people to Jesus.

Secondly, the Scripture you are referring regarding all coming to repentance is talking about the recipients of the letter, who are members of the church. All of them will come to repentance. Some could be the elect who haven't came to faith yet, and others could be lapsed believers who need to be restored to relationship with God. God wants all the elect to come to repentance, and that is why Christ's return will not happen until all the elect are harvested.

That's another thing I don't like about anti-Lordship Southern Baptists. They claim that a believer can be in a state of disobedience, and never be restored, yet still be glorified. The Reformed position would be that God always restores these individuals to Him. They will persevere to the end.

That's why Baptists have membership rolls that are far larger in number than their attendees. They cut notches on their six guns for guys who "pray the prayer" regardless if they persevere or not. If they don't persevere, they aren't saved. Those guys are operating under a bad understanding of eternal security that is called "once saved always saved". It's different than the Reformed view of perseverance of the saints.

Two different wills of God hey.......ok then....

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Two different wills of God hey.......ok then....

Correct.

I already gave an irrefutable example.

His prescriptive will is demonstrated by the Ten Commandments. He gives the Law to be obeyed perfectly, but he knows no one will obey it perfectly, at least not in spirit.

His decretive will is demonstrated by any number of prophecies which have been fulfilled. He has decreed that those things happen, and they WILL happen.

The salvation of the elect is in the second category. He has given particular individuals to the Son, who atoned for them, purchasing salvation for them on the Cross. The Holy Spirit infallibly brings them to faith and repentance through giving them a new heart that can produce spiritual frult like faith and repentance.

 

[dcontroversal]

F

Correct.

I already gave an irrefutable example.

His prescriptive will is demonstrated by the Ten Commandments. He gives the Law to be obeyed perfectly, but he knows no one will obey it perfectly, at least not in spirit.

His decretive will is demonstrated by any number of prophecies which have been fulfilled. He has decreed that those things happen, and they WILL happen.

The salvation of the elect is in the second category. He has given particular individuals to the Son, who atoned for them, purchasing salvation for them on the Cross. The Holy Spirit infallibly brings them to faith and repentance through giving them a new heart that can produce spiritual frult like faith and repentance.

False....the law was given to codemn and make the world guilty Romans 3......and ALL is conclusive of ALL when used in context.....

God would have ALL men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth...If his will is beyond being resisted......ALL would be saved!!

BARKING up my tree will not work migo....! The bible does not teach all that you purport....!

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

F


False....the law was given to codemn and make the world guilty Romans 3......and ALL is conclusive of ALL when used in context.....

God would have ALL men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth...If his will is beyond being resisted......ALL would be saved!!

BARKING up my tree will not work migo....! The bible does not teach all that you purport....!

Do you believe that all Christians are being transformed into the image of Christ, and are to be holy, or do you believe that it is acceptable for them to continue on in sin?

How do you define holiness? How do you define sinfulness?

By the way, that's only one use of the law..to act as a mirror to convict the sinner of his sinfulness.

Another use is to inform the conscience when a believer is acting outside the parameters of God's expectations...

Of course, some are hyper-grace and claim that God has no expectations of the believer, and it is perfectly fine to sin all they want...this is called antinomianism and is condemned by John in his first epistle.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

List of people who care about what Calvin had to say:

-

Yeah im not on the list.

Wait guys Calvin just kicked in the door of my apartment and looks like he is carrying my furniture out, yup its true. I tried protesting he said the gnostics told him to do it, I said I will stop you, he said nah you cant homie its been predestinated, I was like aiight.

Thanks Calvin! Now we know who cast the deciding vote to get Obama his second season in office. You know what they say, whatever happens in Geneva.......

When is your next comedy tour? Lol

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

F


False....the law was given to codemn and make the world guilty Romans 3......and ALL is conclusive of ALL when used in context.....

God would have ALL men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth...If his will is beyond being resisted......ALL would be saved!!

BARKING up my tree will not work migo....! The bible does not teach all that you purport....!

You're free to believe what you want, by the way.

I would ask you to exegete the passage you are referring to, regarding all men coming to salvation.

I don't believe in an old man in heaven who is powerless to accomplish his decrees, and that is the essence of free-willer theology. I also acknowledge the radical corruption that the Fall caused. As I continue to talk to folks, I believe that is the root of the problem..a failure to acknowledge radical corruption.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

F


False....the law was given to codemn and make the world guilty Romans 3......and ALL is conclusive of ALL when used in context.....

God would have ALL men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth...If his will is beyond being resisted......ALL would be saved!!

BARKING up my tree will not work migo....! The bible does not teach all that you purport....!

1 First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.[1 Timothy 2]

Paul brings up the Christ as the Mediator between man and the Father. The OT high priest typified the Christ in His High Priesthood. He is now our High Priest as the Hebrews writer wrote about in Hebrews 7. Now, the OT high priest did not intercede for all men, but solely for the OT Jews. The sins he atoned for were the Jews and those Gentiles who became proselytes under the OT economy. Even the Levitical scape goat only expiated the sins of Israel and none of the other nations. There is a centrality to the OT works of the high priest that typified the High Priesthood of the Christ. The OT high priest did not intercede for all men, neither does the Christ. So all in verse 6 speaks of all believers. Just as verse 4 speaks of all men being all believers, all those He elected from before the creation of the world[Ephesians 1:4].

 

[dcontroversal]

N

You're free to believe what you want, by the way.

I would ask you to exegete the passage you are referring to, regarding all men coming to salvation.

I don't believe in an old man in heaven who is powerless to accomplish his decrees, and that is the essence of free-willer theology. I also acknowledge the radical corruption that the Fall caused. As I continue to talk to folks, I believe that is the root of the problem..a failure to acknowledge radical corruption.

Neither do I and the above is idiotic......God is God and YET MEN HAVE A CHOICE.....from front to back the bible makes this as clear as......and if all you can do is make dumb comments that imply I believe the idiocy of some OLD MAN in heaven blah blah blah...tells me you done lost the argument....

CHOOSE you this day......EVEN JESUS had to choose!

 

[dcontroversal]

Do you believe that all Christians are being transformed into the image of Christ, and are to be holy, or do you believe that it is acceptable for them to continue on in sin?

How do you define holiness? How do you define sinfulness?

By the way, that's only one use of the law..to act as a mirror to convict the sinner of his sinfulness.

Another use is to inform the conscience when a believer is acting outside the parameters of God's expectations...

Of course, some are hyper-grace and claim that God has no expectations of the believer, and it is perfectly fine to sin all they want...this is called antinomianism and is condemned by John in his first epistle.

More fluff in this post than my dryer screen to peddle no choice by man.....hilariously sad!

 

[Hevosmies]

More fluff in this post than my dryer screen to peddle no choice by man.....hilariously sad!

The reformed do believe in a choice, everyone makes choices. Its just that folks make choices according to their nature. Thats the reformed argument there.

 

[dcontroversal]

The reformed do believe in a choice, everyone makes choices. Its just that folks make choices according to their nature. Thats the reformed argument there.

I hear ya.....still a false assumption.....the following gives BOTH CHOICES.....EVIL OR GOOD......and men choose every day!

Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.