Is faith a work?

[Pilgrimshope]

Dear brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ of Nazareth, our Lord and Savior,

Please read this OP before answering.

Serious question looking for some answers. Thought maybe I could find some here. I want to post two scriptures and see what people conclude. I’ll post the KJV.

My question is this: is faith in Christ a work?

John 6:28,29 KJV
28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Ephesians 2:8,9 KJV
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

If I understand correctly, Jesus is saying that the work God wants us to do to have salvation of our soul is to believe on His Son Jesus Christ.

However, Paul says that we are given a gift of being saved because of our faith and that it has nothing to do with our works or self-effort.

Can someone explain this to me? Thank you.

faith depends on what God said to you

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭

if we want to have eternal life this isn e word to hear and accept that holds no condemnation to a. believer

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

faith is like a seed , it can grow and produce fruit or it can dry up and produce nothing but a twig

he is like a father who is giving new life to his children and then he’s raising us . The contradiction you are seeing is this

When believers hear the wrong ideas like hypergrace this happens

“For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭5:12-14‬ ‭

What I’m saying is there are young immature Christian’s like young children they don’t have responsibilities yet but basics as they grow up you have to teach hen responsibility and chores things they need to do to succeed and. nOt live a fruitless life

In a place like this forum there are babes , youth , teenagers , adults , old folk in Christ

some need and can only handle milk like this

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8‬ ‭

but can’t eat the vegetables in the following verse

“For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

until we start letting some small amounts of real food in we get sinuses to milk that it’s like some of Gods word is true like this

“Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

but then if that’s all we ever hear this becomes somehow untrue which is spoken by the one God sent to teach man the importance repentance

“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:3‬ ‭

One is milk for a babe one is food for someone who’s bones are growing and maturing hearing a call to responsibility there are all sorts of meals for us in scripture babes isnt an insult just truth but babes are loved as much and are t expected to be an adult yet they don’t have any work to do they just learn and grow eventually the works scriptures will begin to cause change and maturity in faith

it’s truly like children bekng born needing to learn and grow and be loved and taught anew by thier Father faith leads to works but they won’t feel like works they will be just expressing the new person Gods creating in us

 

[awelight]

Not all answers are created equally. I’m more like a filter, not a pump. I don’t dispute what the verses plainly say, but I may dispute what people think they say. That being said, I haven’t conclusively made my mind up that faith is a work of self-effort, but the evidence to the contrary seems a bit lacking.

The problem I see is that if faith isn’t something we can gain by self-effort then faith is not something we can produce. Therefore, faith must be a gift of God. However, I can’t find a verse that faith is a gift of God.

If saving faith is a gift of God afterall, then I’m at a loss for words. That would lead me to conclude God chooses who He wants to save and who will not be saved. Meanwhile, it’s God’s will that none should perish, but that all come to repentance. That’s why I have been leaning more in favor of faith being a work, trying to steer wide away from a Calvinist perspective.

Thankyou for your level headed response.

A question for you then. If, for example, John Calvin got it right, as to the workings of Salvation in God's Eternal plan - why then would you desire to steer clear of it? If this explanation fits the greater portion of Scripture, then why not embrace it?

Also, John Calvin was not the only person God led to this Truth. Much earlier than he, we had writers like Polycarp (AD69-156). Who was personally appointed by the Apostles, to be bishop of Smyrna. He taught the same things as Calvin would teach. So too for Irenaeus (c. 130-202AD). Martin Luther believed and wrote about these things before Calvin, on the points of Salvation. Later, men like A.W. Pink, John Gill, Charles Spurgeon and so on... Could the early fathers, who were taught by the Apostles personally - have been wrong?

You say there is no verse about faith being from God. First of all, one must distinguish between Holy Spirit driven faith and natural faith. All men possess faith. We believe or have faith a chair will hold us up when we sit in it. That the sun will rise in the morning and gravity will keep us planted securely upon the ground.

But this is not saving faith. Saving faith believes in the unseen and the unknowable. It allows one to believe in something that is as sure as the things we see and know. There is a verse that mentions saving faith as a gift and you used it:

Eph_2:8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

There is some modern day controversy over this verse, related to the Greek words gender. And of course there is. For anyone to believe that grace and faith are a gift of God, it will destroy many a persons Soteriological understandings. Yet, these same men have no problem in accepting everything else as a gift of God. Scripture says Jesus Christ was/is a gift. Grace is a gift of God, (Eph. 3:7). 1 Corinthians speaks of the gifts of the Spirit and Paul's ministry is said, by him, to be a gift, (Eph. 3:7). However, overall, Scripture teaches that the mind of a man must be under the guidance of the Holy Spirit to have unwavering faith in God and His Christ.

Please read carefully, the points made by these men on Eph. 2:8;

Albert Barnes:
And that not of yourselves - That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered “that” - τοῦτο touto - is in the neuter gender, and the word “faith” - πίστις pistis - is in the feminine. The word “that,” therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to “the salvation by grace” of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one; see Bloomfield. Many critics, however, as Doddridge, Beza, Piscator, and Chrysostom, maintain that the word “that” (τοῦτο touto) refers to “faith” (πίστις pistis); and Doddridge maintains that such a use is common in the New Testament. As a matter of grammar this opinion is certainly doubtful, if not untenable; but as a matter of theology it is a question of very little importance.

Whether this passage proves it or not, it is certainly true that faith is the gift of God. It exists in the mind only when the Holy Spirit produces it there, and is, in common with every other Christian excellence, to be traced to his agency on the heart. This opinion, however, does not militate at all with the doctrine that man himself “believes.” It is not God that “believes” for him, for that is impossible. It is his own mind that actually believes, or that exercises faith; see the notes at Rom_4:3. In the same manner “repentance” is to be traced to God. It is one of the fruits of the operation of the Holy Spirit on the soul. But the Holy Spirit does not “repent” for us. It is our “own mind” that repents; our own heart that feels; our own eyes that weep - and without this there can he no true repentance. No one can repent for another; and God neither can nor ought to repent; for us. He has done no wrong, and if repentance is ever exercised, therefore, it must be exercised by our own minds. So of faith. God cannot believe for us. “We” must believe, or “we” shall be damned. Still this does not conflict at all with the opinion, that if we exercise faith, the inclination to do it is to be traced to the agency of God on the heart. I would not contend, therefore, about the grammatical construction of this passage, with respect to the point of the theology contained in it; still it accords better with the obvious grammatical construction, and with the design of the passage to understand the word “that” as referring not to “faith” only, but to “salvation by grace.” So Calvin understands it, and so it is understood by Storr, Locke, Clarke, Koppe, Grotius, and others.

It is the gift of God - Salvation by grace is his gift. It is not of merit; it is wholly by favor.


Adam Clarke:
For by grace are ye saved, through faith - As ye are now brought into a state of salvation, your sins being all blotted out, and you made partakers of the Holy Spirit; and, having a hope full of immortality, you must not attribute this to any works or merit of yours; for when this Gospel reached you, you were all found dead in trespasses and dead in sins; therefore it was God’s free mercy to you, manifested through Christ, in whom ye were commanded to believe; and, having believed by the power of the Holy Spirit, ye received, and were sealed by, the Holy Spirit of promise; so that this salvation is in no sense of yourselves, but is the free gift of God; and not of any kind of works; so that no man can boast as having wrought out his own salvation, or even contributed any thing towards it. By grace arc ye saved, through faith in Christ. This is a true doctrine, and continues to be essential to the salvation of man to the end of the world.
But whether are we to understand, faith or salvation as being the gift of God? This question is answered by the Greek text: τῃ γαρ χαριτι εστε σεσωσμενοι δια της πιστεως· και τουτο ουκ εξ ὑμων· Θεου το δωρον, ουκ εξ εργων· ἱνα μη τις καυχησηται· “By this grace ye are saved through faith; and This (τουτο, this salvation) not of you; it is the gift of God, not of works: so that no one can boast.” “The relative τουτο, this, which is in the neuter gender, cannot stand for πιστις, faith, which is the feminine; but it has the whole sentence that goes before for its antecedent.” But it may be asked: Is not faith the gift of God? Yes, as to the grace by which it is produced; but the grace or power to believe, and the act of believing, are two different things. Without the grace or power to believe no man ever did or can believe; but with that power the act of faith is a man’s own. God never believes for any man, no more than he repents for him: the penitent, through this grace enabling him, believes for himself: nor does he believe necessarily, or impulsively when he has that power; the power to believe may be present long before it is exercised, else, why the solemn warnings with which we meet every where in the word of God, and threatenings against those who do not believe? Is not this a proof that such persons have the power but do not use it? They believe not, and therefore are not established. This, therefore, is the true state of the case: God gives the power, man uses the power thus given, and brings glory to God: without the power no man can believe; with it, any man may.

 

[studentoftheword]

Does having faith require any convincing, logical deduction, or reasoning? People need the gospel preached to them to make a choice.

God knows who's heart will be open to hearing the Word of Faith and who's heart will not be open to hearing the Word of Faith -----Scripture is clear that we have to be drawn by the God to be open to hear the Word of Faith ----you cannot open your own heart to receive Faith ---it is God only that open's your heart to the Word of Faith ----

Faith comes by hearing the Word -----not by your reasoning -----your intellectual reasoning comes from this world and Satan is the god of this world -----and doesn't want you to understand the Word of faith -

One can resist God's tugging on their heart -----I believe that God is every day continuously tugging on people's heart to change ----but they can resist that if they decide to do so -----

So there is a difference between God's Calling someone and God tugging on the heart of a person

When God calls a person for His purpose they cannot resist -----Jonah is a perfect example of that -----Paul is another example of that -----when one is called by God into the Ministry they can try as they may to avoid it but will give in to that calling eventually ---

God's prompting or tugging on the heart can be resisted -----

A person who walks every day on a certain street and passes a Church without notice every day all of a sudden one day stops and takes note of the Church and has no idea as to why they stopped and took note but something in them just moved the person to do so -----that is God prompting that person to take note maybe so they might go inside -----that person can then decide to enter the Church or resist and walk on by -------that is their choice

Another example is --
You have a bad feeling in the pit of your stomach about your friend and something is tugging on your heart to call that person and check up on them -----that is God tugging on your heart -You then can use your intellect and say ----no that person is OK --there is no need to call today I'll call tomorrow ----or you can listen to your gut feeling and call the friend --your choice

 

[awelight]

Why do you stop with Ephesians 2:8-9, what about verse 10?

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We were created in Christ Jesus unto good works. That was our salvation. Being created in Christ Jesus unto good works is our salvation. That was by faith, not based on any work we did but based on the work of redemption that Jesus did on the cross.

However, the works that God has ordained that we should walk in them will lead others to believe in the Son. Why? Your faith in the Son will call to others to also have faith in the Son.

God will judge according to every man's work (1Peter 1:17). This judgement is not about salvation, it is about reward.

Your works are what the Gentiles see and that is what causes them to glorify God (1Peter 2:12)

Therefore James teaches us how to have a perfect work (James 1:4)

Both James and Paul look at Abraham to make the conclusions they make. Abraham believed God and it was reckoned unto him as righteousness, that is what Paul saw, and we know it was reckoned unto Abraham because sure enough Sarah had Isaac.

However, James looks at Abraham when he was obedient to sacrifice his son and says what good is faith without works, can faith save him? Then he says that faith without works is dead. Isaac is a type of Christ, He is the child of promise, but if Isaac is not offered up then he abides alone. This is what the Lord said when He said a grain of wheat abides alone unless it dies, but if it dies it bears much fruit. There is no point to Jesus coming as this miraculous grain of wheat if He isn't also buried so that He could bear much fruit.

Consider Oskar Schindler, one day he sees what the Germans are doing to the Jews in the ghetto and he knows it is wrong. Surely others in Germany also saw and also knew it was wrong. However, they did nothing. They believed it was wrong but that believing was dead because there was no work. However, Schindler then began a work to save Jews alive. Today Schindler, a non Jew, is buried in a special cemetery for the righteous not because he felt the holocaust was wrong, but because he did something about it to save a few thousand Jews alive.

I liked your post until we got to Schindler. Schindler may have done "good" socially, in saving as many Jews as possible. But we don't know what Schindler's true motives were. Man, especially the Jews, may exalt him but his work to aid a social injustice, did not gain merit with God. Scripture clearly teaches, no works gain merit with God.

 

[awelight]

God knows who's heart will be open to hearing the Word of Faith and who's heart will not be open to hearing the Word of Faith -----Scripture is clear that we have to be drawn by the God to be open to hear the Word of Faith ----you cannot open your own heart to receive Faith ---it is God only that open's your heart to the Word of Faith ----

Faith comes by hearing the Word -----not by your reasoning -----your intellectual reasoning comes from this world and Satan is the god of this world -----and doesn't want you to understand the Word of faith -

One can resist God's tugging on their heart -----I believe that God is every day continuously tugging on people's heart to change ----but they can resist that if they decide to do so -----

So there is a difference between God's Calling someone and God tugging on the heart of a person

When God calls a person for His purpose they cannot resist -----Jonah is a perfect example of that -----Paul is another example of that -----when one is called by God into the Ministry they can try as they may to avoid it but will give in to that calling eventually ---

God's prompting or tugging on the heart can be resisted -----

A person who walks every day on a certain street and passes a Church without notice every day all of a sudden one day stops and takes note of the Church and has no idea as to why they stopped and took note but something in them just moved the person to do so -----that is God prompting that person to take note maybe so they might go inside -----that person can then decide to enter the Church or resist and walk on by -------that is their choice

Another example is --
You have a bad feeling in the pit of your stomach about your friend and something is tugging on your heart to call that person and check up on them -----that is God tugging on your heart -You then can use your intellect and say ----no that person is OK --there is no need to call today I'll call tomorrow ----or you can listen to your gut feeling and call the friend --your choice

Are you suggesting Gospel Regeneration?

Your last example - about "gut feelings", every person has. You cannot connect that with the work of the Spirit. The ministry of the Holy Spirit, is not concerned with your unbelieving friend and/or their well being. His ministry, is to help believers understand the Gospel Truth and continually points believers to Jesus Christ and holds Him constantly before them. He intercedes for us in our infirmities and empowers believers in their daily walk.

 

[ZNP]

I liked your post until we got to Schindler. Schindler may have done "good" socially, in saving as many Jews as possible. But we don't know what Schindler's true motives were. Man, especially the Jews, may exalt him but his work to aid a social injustice, did not gain merit with God. Scripture clearly teaches, no works gain merit with God.

You might want to clarify that statement because as it stands it is patently false.

1Peter 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

God judges according to every man's work.

James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

Rahab was not a Jew and yet she was justified by her works, not at all unlike Schindler.

"I know thy works" -- Jesus' words to the church in Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.

To Thyatira Jesus said "and I will give unto every one of you according to your works." So they are rewarded according to their works.

Concerning those that die in the Lord during the tribulation

Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

When you stand before the Lord you will be judged according to your works

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

The first post has already quoted the verse in John that the works of God are to believe in His Son. All Christians will be judged based on that work. And it is a work, it took a lot for Rahab to believe, it took a lot for Schindler to believe, and every church in Revelation is judged based on that because just like Abraham offering up Isaac we can see your faith from your works.

Paul taught the church that every believer will be judged by their works.

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


There are no works that we can do that will cleanse us from our sins, or that will pay the price for sins. So if you think you can be saved and stand before God based on your works you are mistaken. There is only one way to the father and that is through faith in Jesus. However, if you want to claim that you are filled with faith and yet have no works well, good luck with that. If you truly believe that God raises the dead we will see that faith in your works.

 

[awelight]

You might want to clarify that statement because as it stands it is patently false.

1Peter 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

God judges according to every man's work.

James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

Rahab was not a Jew and yet she was justified by her works, not at all unlike Schindler.

"I know thy works" -- Jesus' words to the church in Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.

To Thyatira Jesus said "and I will give unto every one of you according to your works." So they are rewarded according to their works.

Concerning those that die in the Lord during the tribulation

Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

When you stand before the Lord you will be judged according to your works

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

The first post has already quoted the verse in John that the works of God are to believe in His Son. All Christians will be judged based on that work. And it is a work, it took a lot for Rahab to believe, it took a lot for Schindler to believe, and every church in Revelation is judged based on that because just like Abraham offering up Isaac we can see your faith from your works.

Paul taught the church that every believer will be judged by their works.

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


There are no works that we can do that will cleanse us from our sins, or that will pay the price for sins. So if you think you can be saved and stand before God based on your works you are mistaken. There is only one way to the father and that is through faith in Jesus. However, if you want to claim that you are filled with faith and yet have no works well, good luck with that. If you truly believe that God raises the dead we will see that faith in your works.

Wow, you took everything I was saying completely out of context. You need to read the post again. My point was, that Schindler nor anyone will gain merit with God by doing social work that maybe deemed by man as-- good. I never said anything about us being judged for our works or the works produced by faith.

The word "merit" means to place God in a position wherein He owes us something.

 

[awelight]

You might want to clarify that statement because as it stands it is patently false.

1Peter 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

God judges according to every man's work.

James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

Rahab was not a Jew and yet she was justified by her works, not at all unlike Schindler.

"I know thy works" -- Jesus' words to the church in Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.

To Thyatira Jesus said "and I will give unto every one of you according to your works." So they are rewarded according to their works.

Concerning those that die in the Lord during the tribulation

Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

When you stand before the Lord you will be judged according to your works

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

The first post has already quoted the verse in John that the works of God are to believe in His Son. All Christians will be judged based on that work. And it is a work, it took a lot for Rahab to believe, it took a lot for Schindler to believe, and every church in Revelation is judged based on that because just like Abraham offering up Isaac we can see your faith from your works.

Paul taught the church that every believer will be judged by their works.

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


There are no works that we can do that will cleanse us from our sins, or that will pay the price for sins. So if you think you can be saved and stand before God based on your works you are mistaken. There is only one way to the father and that is through faith in Jesus. However, if you want to claim that you are filled with faith and yet have no works well, good luck with that. If you truly believe that God raises the dead we will see that faith in your works.

By the way, are you some kinda of super typist or do you just cut and paste responses from other posts?

 

[ZNP]

By the way, are you some kinda of super typist or do you just cut and paste responses from other posts?

I can type at around 70 wpm, and no, I did not check anyone else's post.

 

[studentoftheword]

Your last example - about "gut feelings", every person has. You cannot connect that with the work of the Spirit. The ministry of the Holy Spirit, is not concerned with your unbelieving friend and/or their well being.

You need to do some research on the function of the Holy Spirit ---He wears many hats and does many things ---for both believers and unbelievers -----

You seem to not know God very well ------God is concerned about all His Creation -----not just the ones who receive Him -----God is very concerned with unbelievers and wants all people saved -----the Holy Spirit most definitely works with the unbelieving ----

https://www.gotquestions.org/Spirit-today.html

What is the role of the Holy Spirit in our lives today?
Of all the gifts given to mankind by God, there is none greater than the presence of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit has many functions, roles, and activities. First, He does a work in the hearts of all people everywhere.

https://www.gotquestions.org/what-does-the-Holy-Spirit-do.html
What does the Holy Spirit do?
The Holy Spirit also does work among unbelievers. Jesus promised that He would send the Holy Spirit to “convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment” (John 16:8, ESV). The Spirit testifies of Christ (John 15:26), pointing people to the Lord. Currently, the Holy Spirit is also restraining sin and combatting “the secret power of lawlessness” in the world. This action keeps the rise of the Antichrist at bay (2 Thessalonians 2:6–10).

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70 Functions of the Holy Spirit
https://revtrev.com/live-light/70-functions-of-the-holy-spirit/

• He leads and directs. (Matthew 4:1; Mark 1:12; Luke 2:27; 4:1; Acts 8:29; Romans 8:14)
• The Holy Spirit speaks – in, to and through. (Matthew 10:20; Acts 1:16; 2:4; 13:2; 28:25; Hebrews 3:7)
• He gives power to cast out devils. (Matthew 12:28)
• He releases power. (Luke 4:14)
• The Holy Spirit anoints. (Luke 4:18; Acts 10:38)
• The Holy Spirit “comes upon” or “falls on”. (Matthew 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 2:25; 3:22; 4:18; John 1:32,33; Acts 10:44; 11:15)
• He baptizes and fills. (Matthew 3:11; Mark 1:8; Luke 1:15,41,67; 3:16, 4:1; John 1:33; Acts 1:4-5; 2:4; 4:8,31; 6:3,5; 7:55; 10:47; 11:24; 13:9,52; 1 Corinthians 12:12)
• He gives new birth. (John 3:5,8)
• He leads into worship. (John 4:23)
• He flows like a river from the spirit man. (John 7:38-39)
• He ministers truth. (John 14:17; 15:26; 16:13)
• He dwells in people. (John 14:17; Romans 8:9,11; 1 Corinthians 3:16)
• The Holy Spirit gives comfort, health, and strength. (John 15:26; Acts 9:31)
• He proceeds from the Father. (John 15:26)
• He shows us things to come. (John 16:13)
• He gives the gift of tongues. (Acts 2:4)
• He releases prophecy, dreams and visions. (Acts 2:17,18; 11:28)
• He can transport people physically. (Acts 8:39)
• The Holy Spirit brings direction and guidance. (Mark 13:36; 13:11; Acts 10:19; 11:12; 21:11; 1 Timothy 4:1
• He is Holiness. (Romans 1:4)
• He is the Spirit of life and gives life. (Romans 8:1,10)
• The Holy Spirit invites us to walk with Him. (Romans 8:4-5)
• He groans, prays and intercedes. (Romans 8:26-27)
• He is a Sword. (Ephesians 6:17)
• The Holy Spirit produces fruit in our lives. (Galatians 5:22-23; Ephesians 5:9)
• He helps us in our weakness. (Romans 8:26)
• He bears witness. (Acts 5:32 15:28; 20:23; Romans 8:15-16; Hebrews 10:15; 1 John 4:13; 5:6-8)
• He is the Spirit of Adoption. (Romans 8:15)
• He gives power to mortify the deeds of the flesh. (Romans 8:13)
• He provides power for signs, wonders and preaching. (Acts 1:8; 1 Corinthians 2:4)
• He ministers love. (Romans 15:30)
• He searches the deep things of God. (1 Corinthians 2:10)
• He quickens the mortal body. (Romans 8:13)
• He brings revelation. (Luke 2:25; 1 COrinthians 2:10,12; Ephesians 1:17-19; 3:5)
• The Holy Spirit reveals to us what has been given by God. (1 Corinthians 2:12)
• He washes, sanctifies, purifies and justifies. (Romans 15;16, 1 Corinthians 6:11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Timothy 3:16; 1 Peter 1:2,22)
• He gives gifts. (1 Corinthians 12:4-11; Hebrews 2:4)
• He seals us. (2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 4:30)
• He is liberty. (2 Corinthians 3:17)
• He changes us into the image of Christ. (2 Corinthians 3:17)
• He is the promise of the blessing of Abraham. (Galatians 3:14)
• He releases a cry to the Father. (Galatians 4:6)
• He gives access to the Father. (Ephesians 2:18)
• The Holy Spirit builds us together for a house for God. (Ephesians 2:22)
• He strengthens us with might. (Ephesians 3:16)
• He is unity. (Ephesians 4:3-4)
• He is wine. (Ephesians 5:18)
• He supplies. (Philippians 1:19)
• He is fellowship. (2 Corinthians 13;14; Philippians 2:1)
• He is grace. (Hebrews 10:29)
• He is glory. (1 Peter 4:14)
• The Holy Spirit speaks to the churches. (Revelation 2:11,17,29; 3:6,13,22)
• He calls for the Bridegroom. (Revelation 22:17)
• The Holy Spirit has the power of conception and anointing for God’s purposes. (Matthew 1:18,20; Luke 1:35)
• He teaches. (Luke 12:12; John 14:26; 1 Corinthians 2:13; 1 John 2:27)
• He gives commandments. (Acts 1:2)
• He provides power to be a witness. (Acts 1:8)
• He provides boldness. (Acts 4:31)
• He give sight. (Acts 9:17)
• He commissions. (Acts 13:4)
• He restrains. (Acts 16:6)
• He appoints ministries and gives them authority. (Acts 20:28)
• He releases love. (Romans 5:5)
• He is righteousness, peace and joy. (Romans 14:17; 15:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:6)
• He confesses Christ’s Lordship. (1 Corinthians 12:3)
• The Holy Spirit brings the gospel. (1 Thessalonians 1:5-6)
• He is keeping power. (2 Timothy 1:14)
• He brings renewal. (Titus 3:5)
• He moves on believers. (2 Peter 1:21)
• He convicts the world. (John 16:8)

Read more at >>> http://revtrev.com/live-light/70-functions-of-the-holy-spirit/

 

[Runningman]

Why do you stop with Ephesians 2:8-9, what about verse 10?

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We were created in Christ Jesus unto good works. That was our salvation. Being created in Christ Jesus unto good works is our salvation. That was by faith, not based on any work we did but based on the work of redemption that Jesus did on the cross.

However, the works that God has ordained that we should walk in them will lead others to believe in the Son. Why? Your faith in the Son will call to others to also have faith in the Son.

I agree with that, but to me it's more nuanced. I differ slightly on what the purpose of the good works is. The purpose of the good works is to demonstrate what God's creation is supposed to be like and in that way we show others the goodness of God and, in effect, lead others to believe in the Son as you said.

Romans 1:18,19
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

I don't see that our salvation is the good works themselves, but rather the good works are a product of the salvation. The salvation is being spared from judgement for our sins and the wages of those sins being death. There are many secular groups that do good works, but what makes us different is we do good works for the glory of God.

Titus 2:11-15
11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to everyone. 12It instructs us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live sensible, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13as we await the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. 14He gave Himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.
15Speak these things as you encourage and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.

God will judge according to every man's work (1Peter 1:17). This judgement is not about salvation, it is about reward.

Your works are what the Gentiles see and that is what causes them to glorify God (1Peter 2:12)

Therefore James teaches us how to have a perfect work (James 1:4)

Both James and Paul look at Abraham to make the conclusions they make. Abraham believed God and it was reckoned unto him as righteousness, that is what Paul saw, and we know it was reckoned unto Abraham because sure enough Sarah had Isaac.

However, James looks at Abraham when he was obedient to sacrifice his son and says what good is faith without works, can faith save him? Then he says that faith without works is dead. Isaac is a type of Christ, He is the child of promise, but if Isaac is not offered up then he abides alone. This is what the Lord said when He said a grain of wheat abides alone unless it dies, but if it dies it bears much fruit. There is no point to Jesus coming as this miraculous grain of wheat if He isn't also buried so that He could bear much fruit.

Totally agreed. Abraham gave his only begotten son to be sacrificed. God gave His only begotten Son to be sacrificed. One thing that I feel doesn't get mentioned often is that God stopped Abraham from sacrificing His only begotten Son. Perhaps since God had plans to sacrifice His only begotten Son, He wanted to keep Abraham from doing it?

Consider Oskar Schindler, one day he sees what the Germans are doing to the Jews in the ghetto and he knows it is wrong. Surely others in Germany also saw and also knew it was wrong. However, they did nothing. They believed it was wrong but that believing was dead because there was no work. However, Schindler then began a work to save Jews alive. Today Schindler, a non Jew, is buried in a special cemetery for the righteous not because he felt the holocaust was wrong, but because he did something about it to save a few thousand Jews alive.

That's good. It's possible to sin via neglect. I think of the Good Samaritan here (also a non-Jew) who did the right thing when it mattered.

 

[Runningman]

faith depends on what God said to you

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭

if we want to have eternal life this isn e word to hear and accept that holds no condemnation to a. believer

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

faith is like a seed , it can grow and produce fruit or it can dry up and produce nothing but a twig

he is like a father who is giving new life to his children and then he’s raising us . The contradiction you are seeing is this

When believers hear the wrong ideas like hypergrace this happens

“For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭5:12-14‬ ‭

What I’m saying is there are young immature Christian’s like young children they don’t have responsibilities yet but basics as they grow up you have to teach hen responsibility and chores things they need to do to succeed and. nOt live a fruitless life

In a place like this forum there are babes , youth , teenagers , adults , old folk in Christ

some need and can only handle milk like this

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8‬ ‭

but can’t eat the vegetables in the following verse

“For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

until we start letting some small amounts of real food in we get sinuses to milk that it’s like some of Gods word is true like this

“Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

but then if that’s all we ever hear this becomes somehow untrue which is spoken by the one God sent to teach man the importance repentance

“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:3‬ ‭

One is milk for a babe one is food for someone who’s bones are growing and maturing hearing a call to responsibility there are all sorts of meals for us in scripture babes isnt an insult just truth but babes are loved as much and are t expected to be an adult yet they don’t have any work to do they just learn and grow eventually the works scriptures will begin to cause change and maturity in faith

it’s truly like children bekng born needing to learn and grow and be loved and taught anew by thier Father faith leads to works but they won’t feel like works they will be just expressing the new person Gods creating in us

That's true. You don't tell a brand new Christian to go read Revelation immediately. When I started reading the Bible, book in my hands, I was advised to wait to give Revelation a bit of time. I was introduced to the Bible when I randomly received one in the mail. I'm still not entirely sure where it came from, but it had a handwritten note in the inside. If I remember correctly, they just told me to start at Genesis.

 

[Runningman]

Thankyou for your level headed response.

A question for you then. If, for example, John Calvin got it right, as to the workings of Salvation in God's Eternal plan - why then would you desire to steer clear of it? If this explanation fits the greater portion of Scripture, then why not embrace it?

Also, John Calvin was not the only person God led to this Truth. Much earlier than he, we had writers like Polycarp (AD69-156). Who was personally appointed by the Apostles, to be bishop of Smyrna. He taught the same things as Calvin would teach. So too for Irenaeus (c. 130-202AD). Martin Luther believed and wrote about these things before Calvin, on the points of Salvation. Later, men like A.W. Pink, John Gill, Charles Spurgeon and so on... Could the early fathers, who were taught by the Apostles personally - have been wrong?

You say there is no verse about faith being from God. First of all, one must distinguish between Holy Spirit driven faith and natural faith. All men possess faith. We believe or have faith a chair will hold us up when we sit in it. That the sun will rise in the morning and gravity will keep us planted securely upon the ground.

But this is not saving faith. Saving faith believes in the unseen and the unknowable. It allows one to believe in something that is as sure as the things we see and know. There is a verse that mentions saving faith as a gift and you used it:

Eph_2:8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

There is some modern day controversy over this verse, related to the Greek words gender. And of course there is. For anyone to believe that grace and faith are a gift of God, it will destroy many a persons Soteriological understandings. Yet, these same men have no problem in accepting everything else as a gift of God. Scripture says Jesus Christ was/is a gift. Grace is a gift of God, (Eph. 3:7). 1 Corinthians speaks of the gifts of the Spirit and Paul's ministry is said, by him, to be a gift, (Eph. 3:7). However, overall, Scripture teaches that the mind of a man must be under the guidance of the Holy Spirit to have unwavering faith in God and His Christ.

Please read carefully, the points made by these men on Eph. 2:8;

Albert Barnes:
And that not of yourselves - That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered “that” - τοῦτο touto - is in the neuter gender, and the word “faith” - πίστις pistis - is in the feminine. The word “that,” therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to “the salvation by grace” of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one; see Bloomfield. Many critics, however, as Doddridge, Beza, Piscator, and Chrysostom, maintain that the word “that” (τοῦτο touto) refers to “faith” (πίστις pistis); and Doddridge maintains that such a use is common in the New Testament. As a matter of grammar this opinion is certainly doubtful, if not untenable; but as a matter of theology it is a question of very little importance.

Whether this passage proves it or not, it is certainly true that faith is the gift of God. It exists in the mind only when the Holy Spirit produces it there, and is, in common with every other Christian excellence, to be traced to his agency on the heart. This opinion, however, does not militate at all with the doctrine that man himself “believes.” It is not God that “believes” for him, for that is impossible. It is his own mind that actually believes, or that exercises faith; see the notes at Rom_4:3. In the same manner “repentance” is to be traced to God. It is one of the fruits of the operation of the Holy Spirit on the soul. But the Holy Spirit does not “repent” for us. It is our “own mind” that repents; our own heart that feels; our own eyes that weep - and without this there can he no true repentance. No one can repent for another; and God neither can nor ought to repent; for us. He has done no wrong, and if repentance is ever exercised, therefore, it must be exercised by our own minds. So of faith. God cannot believe for us. “We” must believe, or “we” shall be damned. Still this does not conflict at all with the opinion, that if we exercise faith, the inclination to do it is to be traced to the agency of God on the heart. I would not contend, therefore, about the grammatical construction of this passage, with respect to the point of the theology contained in it; still it accords better with the obvious grammatical construction, and with the design of the passage to understand the word “that” as referring not to “faith” only, but to “salvation by grace.” So Calvin understands it, and so it is understood by Storr, Locke, Clarke, Koppe, Grotius, and others.

It is the gift of God - Salvation by grace is his gift. It is not of merit; it is wholly by favor.


Adam Clarke:
For by grace are ye saved, through faith - As ye are now brought into a state of salvation, your sins being all blotted out, and you made partakers of the Holy Spirit; and, having a hope full of immortality, you must not attribute this to any works or merit of yours; for when this Gospel reached you, you were all found dead in trespasses and dead in sins; therefore it was God’s free mercy to you, manifested through Christ, in whom ye were commanded to believe; and, having believed by the power of the Holy Spirit, ye received, and were sealed by, the Holy Spirit of promise; so that this salvation is in no sense of yourselves, but is the free gift of God; and not of any kind of works; so that no man can boast as having wrought out his own salvation, or even contributed any thing towards it. By grace arc ye saved, through faith in Christ. This is a true doctrine, and continues to be essential to the salvation of man to the end of the world.
But whether are we to understand, faith or salvation as being the gift of God? This question is answered by the Greek text: τῃ γαρ χαριτι εστε σεσωσμενοι δια της πιστεως· και τουτο ουκ εξ ὑμων· Θεου το δωρον, ουκ εξ εργων· ἱνα μη τις καυχησηται· “By this grace ye are saved through faith; and This (τουτο, this salvation) not of you; it is the gift of God, not of works: so that no one can boast.” “The relative τουτο, this, which is in the neuter gender, cannot stand for πιστις, faith, which is the feminine; but it has the whole sentence that goes before for its antecedent.” But it may be asked: Is not faith the gift of God? Yes, as to the grace by which it is produced; but the grace or power to believe, and the act of believing, are two different things. Without the grace or power to believe no man ever did or can believe; but with that power the act of faith is a man’s own. God never believes for any man, no more than he repents for him: the penitent, through this grace enabling him, believes for himself: nor does he believe necessarily, or impulsively when he has that power; the power to believe may be present long before it is exercised, else, why the solemn warnings with which we meet every where in the word of God, and threatenings against those who do not believe? Is not this a proof that such persons have the power but do not use it? They believe not, and therefore are not established. This, therefore, is the true state of the case: God gives the power, man uses the power thus given, and brings glory to God: without the power no man can believe; with it, any man may.

I don't necessarily reject a doctrine because there are negative connotations attached to it through a particular organization or person, but at the same time I don't really want to associate myself too much with one good apple out of a dozen bad ones, so to speak.

I did read all of the post, including the commentaries, where they said God doesn't repent for us. If faith is a gift then isn't repentance a gift too?

What do you make of this passage:

2 Timothy 2:25,26 NIV
25Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

How does God grant someone repentance?

 

[Runningman]

God knows who's heart will be open to hearing the Word of Faith and who's heart will not be open to hearing the Word of Faith -----Scripture is clear that we have to be drawn by the God to be open to hear the Word of Faith ----you cannot open your own heart to receive Faith ---it is God only that open's your heart to the Word of Faith ----

Faith comes by hearing the Word -----not by your reasoning -----your intellectual reasoning comes from this world and Satan is the god of this world -----and doesn't want you to understand the Word of faith -

One can resist God's tugging on their heart -----I believe that God is every day continuously tugging on people's heart to change ----but they can resist that if they decide to do so -----

So there is a difference between God's Calling someone and God tugging on the heart of a person

When God calls a person for His purpose they cannot resist -----Jonah is a perfect example of that -----Paul is another example of that -----when one is called by God into the Ministry they can try as they may to avoid it but will give in to that calling eventually ---

God's prompting or tugging on the heart can be resisted -----

A person who walks every day on a certain street and passes a Church without notice every day all of a sudden one day stops and takes note of the Church and has no idea as to why they stopped and took note but something in them just moved the person to do so -----that is God prompting that person to take note maybe so they might go inside -----that person can then decide to enter the Church or resist and walk on by -------that is their choice

Another example is --
You have a bad feeling in the pit of your stomach about your friend and something is tugging on your heart to call that person and check up on them -----that is God tugging on your heart -You then can use your intellect and say ----no that person is OK --there is no need to call today I'll call tomorrow ----or you can listen to your gut feeling and call the friend --your choice

I think Jonah and Paul had a bit more than a "tugging on the heart" where that might be confused with someone's own thoughts and/or feelings. Both of those men were chased down, more or less. Jonah tried to run and God pursued him. Paul was on the road to Damascus, bent on persecuting the church, and was visited by Jesus Christ and got struck blind. Both Jonah and Paul had an audible voice in their presence.

So I don't know that feelings and gut feelings are necessarily accurate guidelines, but I have no doubt God can use those; God does anything He wants.

In the book of Jonah God spoke directly to Jonah and in Acts there's a plain example of an audible voice. This is actually how God operates even today.

Acts 9:5-7 NIV
5“Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.
“I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. 6“Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”
7The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone.

 

[posthuman]

You know David - I used to enjoy some of your posts but this is the third time, that I am aware of, where you have made a comment like this:

"The LORD is also referring to something else which no one here can SEE - yet"

Like a little kid with a hidden secret. You can't see it but I can. I know something you don't know. Ha. Ha Ha.

I admonish you brother, this shows pride and boastful character. It in no way follows the mandate of our Lord. To love and edify one another. I hope you give thought to this.

i think after many years here the most worthwhile things i've written are things i thought every real child of God here knows already but needed to be stated clearly - when all i was doing was trying to sum up succinctly what seemed to me to be what the Spirit was already saying through many others.

the things i thought i knew but no one else knew, when i read them again, i'm just ashamed of my vanity -- even if i did have some uncommon wisdom in those cases, i wasn't handling it wisely.

what God loves and honors is a humble person, meekness, gentleness.
and it's no accident that being gentle, meek and humble is the best way to convince someone antagonistic towards you, your ideas or positions, to truly consider what it is you are trying to say. people turn off immediately when you accost them or offend them; i learned a hard & narrow way.

we have plenty of people here who are champions at arguing and posturing.
few who are skilled at actual convincing

 

[Mem]

Exactly, atleast that's how it makes sense to me.

Paul said this:

Romans 10:9,10
9that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved.

People may say, "Oh but confessing with your mouth is a work of the flesh." It's actually a lot more spiritual than that. Jesus said this:

Luke 6:45
45The good man brings good things out of the good treasure of his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil treasure of his heart. For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks.

There is a teaching that says that if an ape understands what you are doing, such as eating, it is natural, but if he doesn't understand what you are doing, like reading a book, then you are occupied in a spiritual work.

 

[posthuman]

i learned a hard & narrow way.

at least --

i learned that there is a narrow Way, and it is hard -- but it is infinitely profitable, and no other way has advantage.

 

[posthuman]

There is a teaching that says that if an ape understands what you are doing, such as eating, it is natural, but if he doesn't understand what you are doing, like reading a book, then you are occupied in a spiritual work.

i'm reminded however --

the ox knows its owner, and the ass its master, but My people...





still that's very interesting
i love you, Mem

 

[Mem]

i'm reminded however --

the ox knows its owner, and the ass its master, but My people...





still that's very interesting
i love you, Mem

because I can only react once to any one post
I Love you, first!

 

[mailmandan]

John 6:29 is simply a play on words by Jesus when he said, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent," when He answered the Jews (who were taking a legalistic approach) when they asked, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" So Jesus was not saying that believing is just "another work" in a series of works in a quest to obtain salvation by works, which would contradict Ephesians 2:8,9 - "..saved through faith, not works."