Is faith a work?
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Everything we do in, by, and through the physical body is some kind of "work". People tend to use this word "work" erroneously and flagrantly to describe things that are done out of scriptural necessity or by command as though they are somehow wrong simply because of them being physical in nature, leading them to establishing and following incorrect doctrine.
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djt47
Exactly, that's why it's not wise to condition salvation on something we physically do, and if we arent born again Spiritually, then we are merely natural and physical in all we do, to include religious matters.
If the things done by us, whether physical and natural, or spiritually, if we constitute them as conditions we met to be accepted with God, saved and kept by God, then that's conditional works salvation, condemned by scripture an opposed to salvation by grace.
Exactly, that's why it's not wise to condition salvation on something we physically do, and if we arent born again Spiritually, then we are merely natural and physical in all we do, to include religious matters.
If the things done by us, whether physical and natural, or spiritually, if we constitute them as conditions we met to be accepted with God, saved and kept by God, then that's conditional works salvation, condemned by scripture an opposed to salvation by grace.
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First of all the faith in Eph 2:8 is not mankind's faith, but is Jesus faithfulness in going to the cross to justify us (Gal 2:16).
1 Thes 1:3 - Remembering without ceasing YOUR WORK OF FAITH, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.
Sounds like it is a work, and it is also a gift, (Gal 2:16) given, in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to the newly quickened to a spiritual life. (Eph 2:1-5).
I think you're missing the point. There are those things required of us by God that we must do and they constitute a physical process or action, one of them being baptism. Confession with the mouth is physical yet too it is also required. If God demands we do it, then we must. That's called obedience. Naaman was told in the OT 2 kings 5:10 to dip seven times in the Jordan to clesnse his leprosy which he questioned. He finally acquiesced and obeyed God through his prophet Elisha and was clesnsed. Was it a so-called "work" or was it a requirement that he had to do in order to achieve the promise? Baptism is no different; it's required, and it doesn't matter that it's physical in nature. It's being obedient.
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djt47
No I am not, Im spot on
This is work merit salvation
This is work merit salvation
Nothing to do with Eternal Salvation in and through the Lord Jesus Christ, which was achieved solely by His Work !
Work merit salvation. Water baptism saved absolutely no one, not ever, ask the Thief on the Cross next to Jesus Christ. All Salvation is the fruit of the Obedience of One, that One being Jesus Christ Rom 5:19
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Not by the obedience of Two, but of One many are saved, declared righteous before God. Just like the thief on the cross, he was made a recipient of the Obedience of Christ, and declared righteous. Im done
No I am not, Im spot on
This is work merit salvation
This is work merit salvation
Nothing to do with Eternal Salvation in and through the Lord Jesus Christ, which was achieved solely by His Work !
Work merit salvation. Water baptism saved absolutely no one, not ever, ask the Thief on the Cross next to Jesus Christ. All Salvation is the fruit of the Obedience of One, that One being Jesus Christ Rom 5:19
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Not by the obedience of Two, but of One many are saved, declared righteous before God. Just like the thief on the cross, he was made a recipient of the Obedience of Christ, and declared righteous. Im done
Why did you stop short of the complete context, in quoting Romans 10? Please continue:
Rom 10:16 But they did not all hearken to the glad tidings. For Isaiah says, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
Rom 10:18 But I say, Did they not hear? Yea, verily, Their sound went out into all the earth, And their words unto the ends of the world.
So what made the difference? The Word went out into all the earth. [This was the same for everyone]. BUT they did not all hearken or understand. Why did some understand and others didn't? It was because some had been regenerated and others had not. Without a change in ones nature, you cannot understand the revealed Truth. The one still in their fallenness, can hear the Gospel proclaimed or read the Scriptures but that one cannot discern the Truth behind the words.
Mat_11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Mat_13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
John 8:47 He that is of God is hearing God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
As long as one denies the results of the "Fall" - Depravity - one has no foundation upon which to build the Truth of Soteriology. Having the correct understanding of the human nature - Subsequent to the Fall - places one on proper constructional ground. All else will erect properly. However, if one believes that a fallen creature can do the things required, in and of oneself apart from the work of God, then proper understanding is doomed. One must believe and discern that one cannot save themselves because: We are fallen creatures - There is nothing good in us - Our righteousness is as filthy rags - We are at enmity with God - Haters of Truth - Lovers of sin.
Get first the proper foundation, then the Lord, perchance, will show you how to build the rest.
Rom 10:16 But they did not all hearken to the glad tidings. For Isaiah says, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
Rom 10:18 But I say, Did they not hear? Yea, verily, Their sound went out into all the earth, And their words unto the ends of the world.
So what made the difference? The Word went out into all the earth. [This was the same for everyone]. BUT they did not all hearken or understand. Why did some understand and others didn't? It was because some had been regenerated and others had not. Without a change in ones nature, you cannot understand the revealed Truth. The one still in their fallenness, can hear the Gospel proclaimed or read the Scriptures but that one cannot discern the Truth behind the words.
Mat_11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Mat_13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
John 8:47 He that is of God is hearing God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
As long as one denies the results of the "Fall" - Depravity - one has no foundation upon which to build the Truth of Soteriology. Having the correct understanding of the human nature - Subsequent to the Fall - places one on proper constructional ground. All else will erect properly. However, if one believes that a fallen creature can do the things required, in and of oneself apart from the work of God, then proper understanding is doomed. One must believe and discern that one cannot save themselves because: We are fallen creatures - There is nothing good in us - Our righteousness is as filthy rags - We are at enmity with God - Haters of Truth - Lovers of sin.
Get first the proper foundation, then the Lord, perchance, will show you how to build the rest.
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You're missing the point still. A command and a requirement is exactly that. A comma and requirement. How can you ignor it? And further, your ignorance of it is based on a non-scriptural skewed viewpoint. The words of the scriptures disagree with you. And it can't be ignored or explained away based on a unscriptural view thst because it requires human, physical, activity, it's considered (erroneously) as a "work" and therefore cannot be true. Thst is plain silly.
The word “work” is kind of a buzzword. It can mean a few different things depending on context. There are works of the Law, works of the flesh, mighty works or miraculous works, and there’s the kind of work where mental or physical energy is expended. When someone says the word “work” in the Bible it’s not always about the same things.
Going to preach the gospel is a work, hearing something is a work, believing something is a work, looking at something is a work. When I say that faith is a work it means someone is doing something. God works, we work, animals work, and even non-living things can work.
All of that being said, the things we believe require energy to sustain. It might not feel like it, but just being able to hold thoughts in your mind requires energy. That’s work. Our existence as beings with a body, soul, and spirit require God’s work.
Hebrews 1:1-3
1On many past occasions and in many different ways, God spoke to our fathers through the prophets. 2But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.
3The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His nature, upholding all things by His powerful word. After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.
But we aren’t puppets, we aren’t pawns. Genuine believers do abandon the faith and it’s possible to be seduced into it via destructive heresies that people decide to believe in.
Going to preach the gospel is a work, hearing something is a work, believing something is a work, looking at something is a work. When I say that faith is a work it means someone is doing something. God works, we work, animals work, and even non-living things can work.
All of that being said, the things we believe require energy to sustain. It might not feel like it, but just being able to hold thoughts in your mind requires energy. That’s work. Our existence as beings with a body, soul, and spirit require God’s work.
Hebrews 1:1-3
1On many past occasions and in many different ways, God spoke to our fathers through the prophets. 2But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.
3The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His nature, upholding all things by His powerful word. After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.
But we aren’t puppets, we aren’t pawns. Genuine believers do abandon the faith and it’s possible to be seduced into it via destructive heresies that people decide to believe in.
awelight
Yes Jesus says he that is of the truth hears His voice [spiritually] Jn 18:37
37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
To be of the Truth is nothing short of being indwelt by the Spirit of truth Jn 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Jn 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
So when God sends the Gospel to one of His Elect they have been born of the Spirit of Truth so they can receive the testimony of the Truth.
Thats why He gives the Spirit so the redeemed sinner can hear and understand spiritually the Gospel of their Salvation 1 Cor 2:12-14
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Thats why regeneration is necessary before Faith
Jn 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Yes Jesus says he that is of the truth hears His voice [spiritually] Jn 18:37
37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
To be of the Truth is nothing short of being indwelt by the Spirit of truth Jn 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Jn 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
So when God sends the Gospel to one of His Elect they have been born of the Spirit of Truth so they can receive the testimony of the Truth.
Thats why He gives the Spirit so the redeemed sinner can hear and understand spiritually the Gospel of their Salvation 1 Cor 2:12-14
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Thats why regeneration is necessary before Faith
Jn 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
As for Ephesians 2:8-9, the way I read it, the "gift of God" is God's saving grace. We receive it through faith. Faith is us reaching out to God in response to His reaching out to us. It's not a "work." Some people are so paranoid about works they say even our faith is a work. How did we get to this point?
They wanted to do the works of God. Jesus answered expaining God's work was not that they should work, but that they should believe in Jesus.
There's no irony here, Jesus redirected their focus.
"Believing" is not a work, and has no merit, it's an acceptance of reality, or more precisely, the cessation of denial of reality.
We stop lying to ourselves and God, and admit He's real, and His Word is true.
Much love!
There's no irony here, Jesus redirected their focus.
"Believing" is not a work, and has no merit, it's an acceptance of reality, or more precisely, the cessation of denial of reality.
We stop lying to ourselves and God, and admit He's real, and His Word is true.
Much love!
1. If what Jesus said in John 6:28,29 is not literal, then it can be interpreted to mean that God produces one’s required faith/belief in Jesus. That means it’s apparent God selects who is saved and who isn’t. The problem I see with that is God doesn’t want any unsaved people. God being omnipotent, I assume, shouldn’t have any problem working out the faith of everyone: that seems reasonable to me from what I can tell in scripture.
2. If John 6:28,29 is literal then no interpretation is required. If faith is our work that we do, then it’s our obedience, our perseverance, our choice. Each person can decide to examine the evidences in the Bible and believe or not. If that’s the case, God doesn’t decide who is disobedient to the command to have faith and repentance and doesn’t decide who is saved our lost, but only judges choices of each person.
Which one is accurate, 1 or 2 or is there another option I’m not aware of?
2. If John 6:28,29 is literal then no interpretation is required. If faith is our work that we do, then it’s our obedience, our perseverance, our choice. Each person can decide to examine the evidences in the Bible and believe or not. If that’s the case, God doesn’t decide who is disobedient to the command to have faith and repentance and doesn’t decide who is saved our lost, but only judges choices of each person.
Which one is accurate, 1 or 2 or is there another option I’m not aware of?
In John 6:22-58 Jesus said many things while teaching in the synagogue. I would think that if Jesus was saying that faith isn't a work that we do then there would have been overwhelming rejoicing among His disciples, yet many of them responded differently:
John 6
59Jesus said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. 60On hearing it, many of His disciples said, “This is a difficult teaching. Who can accept it?”
61Aware that His disciples were grumbling about this teaching, Jesus asked them, “Does this offend you?
So why would they have said it was a difficult teaching to accept? Why were they grumbling about God doing all of the work for us?
If you're right, that's awesome, but I'm not so sure that faith isn't a work. Which verse(s) really solidifies it for you that faith isn't a work?
John 6
59Jesus said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. 60On hearing it, many of His disciples said, “This is a difficult teaching. Who can accept it?”
61Aware that His disciples were grumbling about this teaching, Jesus asked them, “Does this offend you?
So why would they have said it was a difficult teaching to accept? Why were they grumbling about God doing all of the work for us?
If you're right, that's awesome, but I'm not so sure that faith isn't a work. Which verse(s) really solidifies it for you that faith isn't a work?
Faith also is a Gift of Grace Rom 4:16
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
So Faith is included in the Saving Grace of God. But now if you insist that faith is a person's natural response, then its a work you do and not of grace.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
So Faith is included in the Saving Grace of God. But now if you insist that faith is a person's natural response, then its a work you do and not of grace.
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Romans goes on to tell us that we've all received "a measure of faith", so I agree that faith is given to us. Although I don't think that this passage teaches that.
I think the meaning of this passage is that God determined salvation to be by faith instead of works because not all were given the Law, and therefore not all had the same opportunity to keep it, including the sacrifices which would cover sins. So God gives salvation by faith so that anyone, no matter their relation to the Law, has the opportunity to be saved.
Much love!
I think the meaning of this passage is that God determined salvation to be by faith instead of works because not all were given the Law, and therefore not all had the same opportunity to keep it, including the sacrifices which would cover sins. So God gives salvation by faith so that anyone, no matter their relation to the Law, has the opportunity to be saved.
Much love!