Is Baptism necessary for Salvation?

Nehemiah6 · Jul 6, 2022

You need to carefully explain the meaning of "spiritual".

Did Jesus come to the apostles as "a spirit" or did He strongly reject that idea by asking for food and eating it? The resurrected body of Christ was indeed flesh and bones (as He Himself said), yet it was supernatural in that it could pass through doors and walls, and travel from earth to Heaven and vice versa. And that is the kind of body which will be given to the saints. Now Paul calls it a "spiritual body" in 1 Cor 15 because it is not subject to human limitations as they now exist. But it is still "flesh and bones" (not vapor and miasma).

Pilgrimshope · Jul 6, 2022

CS1 said:

“baptism doesn't save you it is the first act of obedience of one who is saved.”

yeah what’s first the chicken or the egg ?

it’s the first act of someone who believes what the gospel said. And promises salvation To them that’s why they do it they hear Jesus says this and they actually believe him they trust his words are true so they act in hope of salvation

“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:16‬ ‭

shall be , not already is. Because that’s not the end it’s where we start we shouldn’t explain who’s saved and not we don’t have the authority paul speaking of his own self

“
“But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭4:4-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We have a judge. He’s told us one day we will do this and receive our eternal judgement

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

before you explain that’s not how salvation works here’s Paul again

“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-10‬ ‭

Jesus part of teaching us his word of life suffering and dying formoir sins and rising up returning to heaven is done and finished the New Testament especially Paul and Peter and John teach us how now we have to start walking in the faith he set before us that part isn’t finished yet we have to repent and walk in faith in the end each person will give an account of all they have done and said at that point to y will receive thier eternal judgement

we need to fully believe that Jesus is able to keep his words of salvstion based on what he said not what the newest osas grace book says

Jesus taught a doctrine and said multiple times Gk e who hears and believes and follows my teachkngs Will have all I’ve promised . Then He said to the Jews he taught this doctrine “ Gino to all the world and teach them the same things everything I taught you baptize them in my name and whoever believes and is baptized shall be saved

it’s a promise we can depend on yes, it’s a sure hope yes that’s why we lay our and strive forward Into better obedience and walk stronger by faith as we persevere we actually believe it leads gone to his promises so I agree with that part

but no we have to wait for Jesus to judge us in person after we die to be saved right now we’re in a state of trial and persecution and struggle in the world corrupted by evil for a short lifetime when we die we the. Have to see the judge and only one who has TVe power to save our souls and he’s said we’ll be judged by what we’ve said and done what we have repented of remitted and what we continued on in also taken to account that day

his promise is for sure but it’s to be accepted though as he made it with all the teachkngs and warnings and rebukes and blessings and encouragement and reproaches and exhortations lessons and conditions he himself set upon eternal life

We have to continue ur on through our lives in faith growing and persevering and we shall be saved through many perils and struggles and hardships and many good times thrown in but we have to repent now in order to be saved eternally

I’d say it’s what a believer does who has a ProMise of salvstion if they continue on in faith and dont continue on in willful sin see we could get baptized and never repent or believe anything else and it’s not gonna help it’s just let of the doctrine of Christ we have a new life to grow into and take responsibility for eventually In Christ we can do all things , not Jesus already did everything for us now there’s nothing for us to do no path we must follow to arrive at our destination of course it’s the path Christ set before us in the gospel that leads home

“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Do all things without murmurings and disputings: that ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:12-15‬ ‭

we come To understand Paul’s frame of mind out waiting until Jesus comes for our eternal judgement

He’s coming back and bringing salvstion with him

“so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Everlasting-Grace · Jul 6, 2022

CS1 said:

baptism doesn't save you it is the first act of obedience of one who is saved. we are to believe (past tense) unto salvation and be baptized. the belief comes before the baptism. the ability to believe comes from the Holy Spirit which set the person free to be obedient to the word of the Lord Jesus who said to be saved than be baptized.

does it have to be the first act of obedience?

Amanuensis · Jul 6, 2022

Pilgrimshope said:

44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came downa on all those who heard the message. 45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were amazed because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles.a 46For they heard them speaking in tonguesA and declaring the greatness of God.

Then Peter responded, 47“Can anyone withhold water and prevent these people from being baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have? ”a 48He commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ

Pilgrimshope · Jul 6, 2022

Nehemiah6 said:

I don’t need to explain anything Paul’s explaining it for us based o. What Jesus said

first we know this is a fact right ?

“Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Now let’s look at why Paul’s saying what he’s saying forst he poses the question how are the dead raised ? With what kind of body ?

“But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:35‬ ‭

now he explains that Adam was made of flesh his body of flesh was made of earth and for earth

“The first man is of the earth, earthy:

the second man is the Lord from heaven.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:47‬ ‭KJV‬‬

now paul explains that just like we were made like the first earthly man , now we are going to be made like the man from heaven the life giving spirit

“And as we have borne the image of the earthy,

we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:49‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Notice there is a present tense as we have born ( on earth )

we shall bear the heavenly in the kingdom

there is a form for earth it’s our present body it’s always dying gaping old , failing with time , it is by it’s very nature temporary it’s finite and has en expiration date but the living part of us gay came from God is the spirit that makes the body live that chooses and guides our body for this temporary time on earth

when we die the body returns to the dust it was made from but the spiritual man made in Christs image returns to God alive

“Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: ( flesh)

and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we’re being created in Gods image brother not the fallen image of Adam again

“God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”
‭‭John‬ ‭4:24‬ ‭

Paul’s pretty clear really he’s specifically making the issue “ how do the dead rose what kind of body will they have ?
the. He explains there are two different types of bodies we have we have an earthly body made for this temporary life on earth and there is a spiritual body that doesn’t die at death but returns to God to face the judgement and second death

The first death is our flesh , the second is our spiritual death that’s what salvation is about avoiding our flesh body was never meant to last forever since they fell into sin it’s the part of us that’s left behind we bekng created to be eternal spiritual beings living in the spiritual eternal
Kingdom of God whomis a spirit

we’re born of the spirit , walk in the spirit , live by the spirit and when our body of flesh dies we will love on in the spirit and return to Jesus the lord

when we die is when we become fully present with him when the flesh perishes as it’s destined to do

“Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: we are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:6, 8-10‬ ‭

he’s talking about us as a spirit living in the body on earth

all I’m saying is the flesh and blood is bound to this earth it’s where it came from Jesus has better things for us in a new creation not corrupt through flesh

I think Paul actually explains it quite well if we don’t just read it and then reject what he’s taught it’s really informative

Just this one verse answers his subject question clearly and concisely

“it is sown a natural body; 1

it is raised a spiritual body. 2

There is a natural body, 1

and there is a spiritual body.” 2
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:44‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I’m. NOt sure what confusing u less we just flat reject what the apostle is saying his purpose is to explain this stuff ours should be to learn and believe and move on to other connected subjects but we tend to reject and argue what we think against it

so My belief is there is a flesh body made for life on this present earth , and then a spiritual body within born in Christ , made for the kingdom and at death the body returns to where it came from and was made for the earth the spirit returns to where it came from and was made for the kingdom of God which isnt on this earth and doesn’t have earthly bodies that inhabit it but the eternal spiritual ones

So even as we die in the flesh we shall Live by the spirit

but the flesh does t get to inherit the spiritual thkngs is all I’m saying pretty clear to me but others see it also thoer own way

Bluesproverb · Jul 6, 2022

Everlasting-Grace said:

My experience having encountered the

Runningman said:

It is a good question. One that will likely be debated beyond our lifetime as has been the case all these centuries to now.

I take into account the early catholic church and the Nicene council and creed as being responsible for the idea Baptism save's.
"'We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins' ..."
However as we e noted in our posts, if baptism save's it would never be o.itted from those teachings related in Acts and Romans, to name just two.

The biggest tell in that regard though for me is Paul's letter to the churches in Ephesus.
Informing te hm of what salvation is and how it comes. With no reference whatever to baptism.

Paul said he did not come to baptize.
Yet he said he came to deliver the gospel. Another big inescapable factor for me in that baptism does not save.

If it did Paul's Ephesians letter would be error. False, for not including baptism in chapter 2 verses 8 through 10.

And Jesus didn't baptize anyone, though his disciples traveling with him did. But they were ministering to the lost sheep of the house of Israel whom Jesus said he was sent to minister to.
Those Jews knew what the Mikvah was. Cleansing,ritual, bath.
Maybe we can see the baptism discrepancies in the different books of the new testament as a reflection of that.

The baptism rite, Mikvah, performed from time to time in scripture pertained to the Jews conversion to Christ. Perhaps baptism being referred to as salvific in those instances was because that Mikvah reconciled them to God. Washing them clean to then receive that free gift of faith and salvation.

I think, at least for me, the clincher that settles the matter is when we are told how we come to be saved in the first place.

And it encompasses Jesus' death and resurrection as well because the verse relates that to its final outcome. The sacrifice, and why.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works so that none may boast.

Bluesproverb · Jul 6, 2022

Everlasting-Grace said:

Lets try again. lol

My experience having encountered the Baptism Save's argument is those who make it adamantly are Catholic.

Bluesproverb · Jul 6, 2022

Pilgrimshope said:

Amen Resurrection requires one to have no sin “ the wages of sin is death “ this is why Jesus died for remission of sins to remit the death sentance also.

One important thing is the resurrection is spiritual the new body spiritual our flesh is already bound to death

We aren’t going to rise again like we are now physical flesh we’re moving into a spiritual existence with a spiritual body

“But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:35, 44-47, 49‬

we have two stages of life we have a life made for this earth in the body of flesh and we have a spiritual living body made for after the flesh perishes.

the flesh returns to the dust and the spiritual is raised unto the lord

when we rise from death it’s going to be a translated body into the spiritual heavenly existence not remade for another life on this perishable earth

I've met Christians who believe the resurrection of our new bodies is to happen in flesh form. They also say Jesus is a man of flesh in heaven.

Everlasting-Grace · Jul 6, 2022

Bluesproverb said:

My experience having encountered the

It is a good question. One that will likely be debated beyond our lifetime as has been the case all these centuries to now.

I take into account the early catholic church and the Nicene council and creed as being responsible for the idea Baptism save's.
"'We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins' ..."
However as we e noted in our posts, if baptism save's it would never be o.itted from those teachings related in Acts and Romans, to name just two.

The biggest tell in that regard though for me is Paul's letter to the churches in Ephesus.
Informing te hm of what salvation is and how it comes. With no reference whatever to baptism.

Paul said he did not come to baptize.
Yet he said he came to deliver the gospel. Another big inescapable factor for me in that baptism does not save.

If it did Paul's Ephesians letter would be error. False, for not including baptism in chapter 2 verses 8 through 10.

And Jesus didn't baptize anyone, though his disciples traveling with him did. But they were ministering to the lost sheep of the house of Israel whom Jesus said he was sent to minister to.
Those Jews knew what the Mikvah was. Cleansing,ritual, bath.
Maybe we can see the baptism discrepancies in the different books of the new testament as a reflection of that.

The baptism rite, Mikvah, performed from time to time in scripture pertained to the Jews conversion to Christ. Perhaps baptism being referred to as salvific in those instances was because that Mikvah reconciled them to God. Washing them clean to then receive that free gift of faith and salvation.

I think, at least for me, the clincher that settles the matter is when we are told how we come to be saved in the first place.

And it encompasses Jesus' death and resurrection as well because the verse relates that to its final outcome. The sacrifice, and why.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works so that none may boast.

I point to John 3. Jesus said be born of water and spirit. They claim water is baptism. Yet when Jesus told him HOW to be born again, No mention of baptism whatsoever. If it was so important. Why did Jesus leave that fact out.

Bluesproverb · Jul 6, 2022

Everlasting-Grace said:

Jesus told the Samaritan woman he met at the well that he was the living water. And that would insure she never thirst.

Born of water, Jesus and spirit.

Nehemiah6 · Jul 6, 2022

Pilgrimshope said:

"Flesh and bones" is NOT "flesh and blood". So you need to go back to square one. Jesus said His body is "flesh and bones". We are not given any additional information, but we are told that our "vile" bodies will be like unto His "glorious body". So, no, we will not be ghosts floating around as you imagine.

Everlasting-Grace · Jul 6, 2022

Bluesproverb said:

Church of christ churches. Mormon churches etc there are lot of them

Bluesproverb · Jul 6, 2022

Nehemiah6 said:

What shall we be? When the perishable , flesh, cannot inherit the imperishable, the kingdom of heaven.

Ours will be a spiritual body. Of course.☺️

https://biblehub.com/nas/1_corinthians/15.htm

CS1 · Jul 6, 2022

The_Watchers_2017 said:

Jesus had not yet died and risen again when he told the thief you will be with me in paradise

The_Watchers_2017 · Jul 6, 2022

CS1 said:

true

Bluesproverb · Jul 6, 2022

CS1 said:

What does that mean?

Dino246 · Jul 6, 2022

Bluesproverb said:

Those words were spoken while Jesus was on the cross, but before He died...

Luke 23 (NIV):

Two other men, both criminals, were also led out with him to be executed. 33 When they came to the place called the Skull, they crucified him there, along with the criminals—one on his right, the other on his left. ...

39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”

40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”

42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[d]”

43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

44 It was now about noon, and darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon, 45 for the sun stopped shining. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. 46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.”[e] When he had said this, he breathed his last.

Runningman · Jul 6, 2022

The_Watchers_2017 said:

yes I believe he was baptized.

Mark 1:5
5And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

Runningman · Jul 6, 2022

Bluesproverb said:

Well, the letters and books of the New Testament were meant to be read in full context. It’s okay to cherry-pick verses and quote them, but the context has to be respected. That’s the cause of the debates, in my opinion. The Bible says repeatedly to get water baptized and the Bible says to believe too.

Baptism isn’t a “work” in the sense it’s a requirement of the Law of Moses. It’s an act of obedience. This is evident because John 6:28,29 says believing in Jesus is a work God has for us.

John 6:28,29
28Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

29Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Bluesproverb · Jul 6, 2022

Runningman said:

I think if it were a matter of obedience Jesus would have incorporated that into every sermon without exception.

And as he was the living example of the gospel would have scriptures reporting he baptized again and again. Instead, he reiterated grace through faith is salvation.

I think the Ephesians verse is an enormous hurdle for the teaching that insists baptism saves.
Because that teaching then tells us we are not saved if we've not been emersed in liquid water.

A surprise for countless Catholics to be sure.

Is Baptism necessary for Salvation?

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