Is Baptism in water a work or a command? Is it necessary for salvation?

[Cameron143]

I agree faith always proceeds works. We are on the same page at this point.

As for baptism, it's not an outward showing of an inward change as some claim.
It's how:
-we are added to Christ
41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.
27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

- our sins are washed away
16 Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins by calling on His name.’

- we are united in death with Christ
4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death

- how we are resurrected with Christ
21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

- we are circumcised by Christ
11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision performed without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with Him in baptism,

Baptism is an appeal to God for a good conscience.
—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—
Does the bible tell us there is any other way to appeal to God? Sinners prayer? Ask Jesus into your heart?

I understand your reasoning and very much have appreciated your replies.
The reason I disagree with you is because of what Ephesians 2:8-9 teaches. We are saved by grace through faith...thus, faith is sufficient for salvation. As if to reinforce this point, Paul goes on to add...not of works. He anticipated, particularly from Jews, that they would believe something more than faith would be necessary. And, he finishes by telling them that though works don't produce salvation, God has ordained works for us to walk in.

 

[turbosixx]

I understand your reasoning and very much have appreciated your replies.
The reason I disagree with you is because of what Ephesians 2:8-9 teaches. We are saved by grace through faith...thus, faith is sufficient for salvation. As if to reinforce this point, Paul goes on to add...not of works. He anticipated, particularly from Jews, that they would believe something more than faith would be necessary. And, he finishes by telling them that though works don't produce salvation, God has ordained works for us to walk in.

I agree with Eph. 2:8-9. Our understanding of those verses have to be in agreement with the rest of the scriptures.
Faith is sufficient but what does it mean to have faith that is sufficient.
22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

 

[Cameron143]

I agree with Eph. 2:8-9. Our understanding of those verses have to be in agreement with the rest of the scriptures.
Faith is sufficient but what does it mean to have faith that is sufficient.
22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

You actually don't believe faith is sufficient if something must be yet still done. Galatians 2:16...by works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
So we have 2 verses of scripture that seem to say 2 very opposite things. How do you reconcile them?

 

[turbosixx]

You actually don't believe faith is sufficient if something must be yet still done.

Faith that has no works is dead. Faith that works is faith made complete.

Galatians 2:16...by works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
So we have 2 verses of scripture that seem to say 2 very opposite things. How do you reconcile them?

In Galatians 2 Paul is talking about a specific set of works.
16 nevertheless, knowing that a person is not justified by works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus,
He's talking about the law of Moses and circumcision.

 

[hornetguy]

But He will baptize with fire and the Holy Ghost. Hard to misconstrue that with water.

I've never seen anyone baptized in fire... have you?

 

[Cameron143]

I've never seen anyone baptized in fire... have you?

No. But I know many baptized as by fire. And fire is what was upon the Apostles the day of Pentecost at the coming of the Holy Spirit.

 

[hornetguy]

But I know many baptized as by fire.

can you add clarification to that?

 

[hornetguy]

And fire is what was upon the Apostles the day of Pentecost at the coming of the Holy Spirit.

Yes. On the apostles only.

 

[oyster67]

The difference is Jesus said it he never said anything about kissing beads or foot each of and salvstion but baptism he did connect to salvation

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Agree. Jesus connected Holy Spirit baptism with salvation. They occur at the same time. Rituals like tub-dunking and foot washing and communion come later and are done for remembrance and illustration.

 

[hornetguy]

You actually don't believe faith is sufficient if something must be yet still done. Galatians 2:16...by works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
So we have 2 verses of scripture that seem to say 2 very opposite things. How do you reconcile them?

Baptism is not a "work of the law" .... it is an act of obedience to God. That is not a "work".

 

[oyster67]

can you add clarification to that?

Yes. On the apostles only.

I know that our works are tried by fire.

1 Corinthians 3:15
“If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.”

And then we have this verse;

1 Peter 1:7
“That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:”

 

[oyster67]

Baptism is not a "work of the law" .... it is an act of obedience to God. That is not a "work".

Are you referring to water baptism or Spirit Baptism?

Water baptism is an act in the same sense that partaking in communion services and foot washing services are, but it is not salvational.

 

[Cameron143]

can you add clarification to that?

Baptism by fire is simply to learn something first hand by doing it, usually of necessity. No different from a Christian learning some aspect of the faith as a result of trial.

 

[Cameron143]

Yes. On the apostles only.

Yes. To authenticate the presence of the Holy Spirit upon them. This was the power Jesus had told them to wait for. God isn't prohibited from doing the same again, but Pentecost was a unique case as it marked the beginning of the church. But there are still signs and wonders that accompany the believers. And spiritual people don't require outward signs. They know when the Spirit comes in power. They can see the effect it has on others and themselves. Only unspiritual people need an outward sign.
I'm of the belief that Peter recognized this in those in Acts 2 because of their response. Clearly not everyone believes this. But Jesus dealt with a similar situation when He healed the paralytic man. Having pronounced the man's sins forgiven, He went on to heal the man to authenticate His original pronouncement.
You and I wouldn't have need of a miracle if Jesus forgave someone's sins today. We simply believe it by faith.
Peter preached to the whole crowd. But He only told those who asked how to respond. I am interested, though, what happens during water baptism that saves a person? What transpires? What is it about the water that makes a dead man alive?

 

[Cameron143]

Baptism is not a "work of the law" .... it is an act of obedience to God. That is not a "work".

What is a work of the law?

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

People are born dead spiritually. They must first be made alive to respond.

There's no indication that this is true. Are you a "baby burner"??

 

[oyster67]

What transpires? What is it about the water that makes a dead man alive?

It helps to drop in an electric toaster or hair dryer.

 

[oyster67]

People are born dead spiritually. They must first be made alive to respond.

Romans 1:
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

 

[Cameron143]

There's no indication that this is true. Are you a "baby burner"??

Go to the graveyard and preach and let me know how many people respond. And God can quicken a baby. John the Baptist leapt in the womb when Jesus arrived in another womb. God isn't limited in any way in His ability to save.

 

[Cameron143]

Romans 1:
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Sure men can know that God exists. They can even know they are accountable to Him. But they can't give themselves life.