Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

[ChristianSubMissionary]

articles posted in upcoming posts for context.

Yes, thank you for confirming the context of Romanisms belief is rooted in spiritualism and pagan Greek philosophy.

 

[John146]

Words mean things.

"Shall burn" and "shall consume" indicates a future event, specifically a fire that will burn up the Earth. That's why Jesus said "at the end of the world".

BTW, "our God is a consuming fire". The "fire of His anger" is kindled, but it's not burning the Earth yet. Do you know when it will?

"And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them " at the end of time, not right now.

Do you even believe in hell fire? Is it present or future? Who goes there?

 

[Phoneman-777]

The Old Testament. The Hebrew word so rendered is nepes [v,p,n]. It appears 755 times in the Old Testament. The King James Version uses 42 different English terms to translate it. The two most common renderings are "soul" (428 times) and "life" (117 times). It is the synchronic use of nepes [v,p,n] that determines its meaning rather than the diachronic. Hebrew is inclined to use one and the same word for a variety of functions that are labeled with distinct words in English.

Nepes [v,p,n] in the Old Testament is never the "immortal soul" but simply the life principle or living being. Such is observable in Genesis 1:20, 21, 24, where the qualified (living) nepes [v,p,n] refers to animals and is rendered "living creatures." The same Hebrew term is then applied to the creation of humankind in Genesis 2:7, where dust is vitalized by the breath of God and becomes a "living being." Thus, human being shares soul with the animals. It is the breath of God that makes the lifeless dust a "living being" — person.

Frequently in the Old Testament nepes [v,p,n] designates the individual ( Lev 17:10 ; 23:30 ). In its plural form it indicates a number of individuals such as Abraham's party ( Gen 12:5 ), the remnant left behind in Judah ( Jer 43:6 ), and the offspring of Leah ( Gen 46:15 ).

Nepes [v,p,n] qualified by "dead" means a dead individual, a corpse ( Num 6:6 ). More significant here is that nepes [v,p,n] can mean the corpse of an individual even without the qualification "dead" ( Num 5:2 ; 6:11 ). Here nepes [v,p,n] is detached from the concept of life and refers to the corpse. Hebrew thought could not conceive of a disembodied nepes [v,p,n].

Frequently nepes [v,p,n] takes the place of a personal or reflexive pronoun ( Psalm 54:4 ; Prov 18:7 ). Admittedly this movement from the nominal to the pronominal is without an exact borderline. The Revised Standard Version reflects the above understanding of nepes [v,p,n] by replacing the King James Version "soul" with such translations as "being, " "one, " "self, " "I/me."

Nepes [v,p,n] is also used to designate parts of the body, primarily to stress their characteristics and functions. It can refer to the throat ( Isa 5:14 ; Hab 2:5 ), noting that it can be parched and dry ( Num 11:6 ; Jeremiah 31:12 Jeremiah 31:25 ), discerning ( Prov 16:23 ), hungry ( Num 21:5 ), and breathing ( Jer 2:24 ). Nepes [v,p,n] also can mean the neck, and the vital function that takes place there, noting that it can be ensnared ( 1 Sam 28:9 ; Psalm 105:18 ), humbled and endangered ( Prov 18:7 ), and bowed to the ground ( Psalm 44:25 ). Even while focusing on a single part of the body, by synecodoche the whole person is represented.

Nepes [v,p,n] is often used to express physical needs such as hunger ( Deut 12:20 ; 1 Sam 2:16 ) and thirst ( Prov 25:25 ). It can be used of excessive desires (gluttony Prov 23:2 ) and of unfulfilled desires (barrenness 1 Sam 1:15 ). Volitional/spiritual yearning is also assigned to nepes [v,p,n], such as the desire for God ( Psalm 42:1-2 ), justice ( Isa 26:8-9 ), evil ( Prov 21:10 ), and political power ( 2 Sam 3:21 ). Emotions are expressed by nepes [v,p,n] so that it feels hate (so used of Yahweh Isa 1:14 ), grief ( Jer 13:17 ), joy and exultation, disquietude ( Psalm 42:5 ), and unhappiness ( 1 Sam 1:15 ).

Clearly, then, in the Old Testament a mortal is a living soul rather than having a soul. Instead of splitting a person into two or three parts, Hebrew thought sees a unified being, but one that is profoundly complex, a psychophysical being.

The New Testament. The counterpart to nepes [v,p,n] in the New Testament is psyche [yuchv] (nepes [v,p,n] is translated as psyche [yuchv] six hundred times in the Septaugint). Compared to nepes [v,p,n] in the Old Testament, psyche [yuchv] appears relatively infrequently in the New Testament. This may be due to the fact that nepes [v,p,n] is used extensively in poetic literature, which is more prevalent in the Old Testament than the New Testament. The Pauline Epistles concentrate more on soma [sw'ma] (body) and pneuma [pneu'ma] (spirit) than psyche [yuchv].

This word has a range of meanings similar to nepes [v,p,n]. It frequently designates life: one can risk his life ( John 13:37 ; Acts 15:26 ; Rom 16:4 ; Php 2:30 ), give his life ( Matt 20:28 ), lay down his life ( John 10:15 John 10:17-18 ), forfeit his life ( Matt 16:26 ), hate his life ( Luke 14:26 ), and have his life demanded of him ( Luke 12:20 ).

Psyche, as its Old Testament counterpart, can indicate the person ( Acts 2:41 ; 27:37 ). It also serves as the reflexive pronoun designating the self ("I'll say to myself" Luke 12:19 ; "as my witness" 2 Cor 1:23 ; "share our lives" 1 Thess 2:8 ).

Psyche can express emotions such as grief ( Matt 26:38, ; Mark 14:34 ), anguish ( John 12:27 ), exultation ( Luke 1:46 ), and pleasure ( Matt 12:18 ).

The adjectival form "soulish" indicates a person governed by the sensuous nature with subjection to appetite and passion. Such a person is "natural/unspiritual" and cannot receive the gifts of God's Spirit because they make no sense to him ( 1 Cor 2:14-15 ). As in the Old Testament, the soul relates humans to the animal world ( 1 Cor 15:42-50 ) while it is the spirit of people that allows a dynamic relationship with God.

There are passages where psyche [yuchv] stands in contrast to the body, and there it seems to refer to an immortal part of man. "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell" ( Matt 10:28 ). While Scripture generally addresses humans as unitary beings, there are such passages that seem to allow divisibility within unity.

Carl Schultz

See also Person, Personhood; Spirit

Bibliography. W. Dryness, Themes in Old Testament Theology; R. H. Gundry, Somma in Biblical Theology; R. Jewett, Paul's Anthropological Terms; N. Snaith, The Distinctive Ideas of the Old Testament; H. W. Wolff, Anthropology of the Old Testament.

Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology. Edited by Walter A. Elwell
Copyright © 1996 by Walter A. Elwell. Published by Baker Books, a division of
Baker Book House Company, Grand Rapids, Michigan USA.
All rights reserved. Used by permission.
For usage information, please read the Baker Book House Copyright Statement.

[N] indicates this entry was also found in Nave's Topical Bible
Bibliography Information
Elwell, Walter A. "Entry for 'Soul'". "Evangelical Dictionary of

It is my impression from above that spirit is the life force of humans. Soul is their real being.

Thanks for the info. I've said many times that "soul" and "psyche" refer to the "whole being" - comprised of its two parts, the "spirit" and the "body".

It takes a certain degree of humility to read Genesis 2:7 KJV and concede that, yes, the verse plainly teaches a "soul" comes into existence ONLY as consequence of the union of the body and the breath of life, and thus cannot continue to exist once that union is broken, no more than a light from a bulb can continue to shine once the electric current is switched off.

However, most Christians seem to relish the thought of watching their tormentors in this life writhe in agony in the next, and are offended that God would just blot them out of existence - I've even heard one misguided lady say, "God loves us too much to allow us to pass out of existence, which is why we have to be tormented eternally".

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

Holman Bible Dictionary

Try these resources instead:

State Of The Dead & Annihilation Hellfire Non SDA Quotes : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

What about these?

Doctrine - The Soul Sleepers - Chapter 4 The Major Seventeenth Century Advocates

Doctrine - Emmanuel Petavel Olliff - The Problem Of Immortality

Doctrine - Charles L Ives - The Bible Doctrine Of The Soul An Answer To The Question

Doctrine - Albert C. Johnson - Conditional Immortality

Doctrine - A Debate On The State Of The Dead - Nathaniel Field Vs Thomas P Connelly

Doctrine - Henry Grew (Baptist) - State Of The Dead &c Owned By Joseph Frisbie, With His Personal Markings

Stephen Bohr - Secrets Unsealed - State Of The Dead & Hellfire Sermons

Christian Mortalism From Tyndale To Milton By Norman T. Burns

Doctrine - William Tyndale - Tyndales Answer To Sir Thomas More

Doctrine - Wenham John - The Case For Conditional Immortality

Doctrine - Vladimir Baranozv - Sleep Of The Soul [18177565 Scrinium] “Angels In The Guise Of Saints” A Syrian Tradition In Constantinople

Doctrine - Life And Immortality By Basil Atkinson

Doctrine - Glenn A Peoples - Soul Sleep - Rethinking Hell Chapter 2

Doctrine - Dirk Krausmuller - Soul Sleep - [18177565 Scrinium] Christian Platonism And The Debate About Afterlife

Doctrine - Christopher M Date - Soul Sleep - 18. MJTM. 69 92 Date

Doctrine - Richard Whately - A View Of The Scripture Revelations Concerning A Future State

Doctrine - H H Dobney & John Milton - The Scripture Doctrine Of Future Punishment An Argument

Doctrine - George Storrs - An Inquiry Are The Wicked Immortal In Six Sermons Also Have The Dead Knowledge Which Is Prefixed An Extract On The Second Death By Archbishop Whately

SDA - D M Canright - A History Of The Doctrine Of The Soul Among All Races And Peoples, Ancient And Modern...; Carefully Brought Down To The Present Time

Doctrine - The State Of The Dead - John Milton (Paradise Lost)

Doctrine - F. Gavin - The Sleep Of The Soul In The Early Syriac Church

Doctrine - Bryan W. Ball - Sixteenth Century Continental Conditionalists

Doctrine - Aphrahat By J. Edward Walters - Sleep Of The Soul And Resurrection Of The Body

Hell & Mr Fudge - Edward Fudge

Doctrine - Death - LeRoy Edwin Froom - The Conditionalist Faith Of Our Fathers Volume 02

Doctrine - Death - LeRoy Edwin Froom - The Conditionalist Faith Of Our Fathers Volume 01

Secrets Unsealed - Stephen Bohr - Misunderstood Texts On The State Of The Dead : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

 

[Amanuensis]

I cited in connection to Jude 1:9, Luke 9:31. Moses "appeared in glory" with the living and glorified Elijah. Moses can only do that if he had been previously resurrected.

Now I will cite Romans 5:14 in connection to the previous two faithful witnesses.

Rom 5:14: "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

The reason death reigned from Adam to Moses, because until Moses, no one had yet been permanently resurrected. God broke that reign of death with the resurrection of Moses, which is why he is seen in glory on the Mt of transfiguration with the glorious Elijah.

Even the Jews were looking for Moses and Elijah to come down from heaven (John 1:21,25 "that prophet" (Moses); Matthew 27:49; Mark 15:36 "Elias").

This is speculation, but it is not even a very well thought out speculation.

Jesus here is shining with more glory than any of them, or at least is seems to indicate such. Jesus has not yet been bodily resurrected. Therefore it is not possible to use the manifestation of glory on Moses as proof that he has been "glorified" as in the bodily resurrection type of "glorified" since Jesus himself has not been "glorified" in this context.

Therefore you argument has been nullified just that easily. And I am flabbergasted that you didn't see it before.

The glory that is being manifested is a sign and example of the power that will be manifest at the coming when the Son of God comes with Power in the heavens with glory of the Father and is a sign and manifestation to Peter, James, and John of what they have to look forward to, and thus one could say it is like that glory that we will see at the resurrection, or at the coming of the Son of Man with power (Lk 9:27) but nevertheless it does not prove that Moses and Elijah have already received this bodily resurrection SINCE JESUS HAS NOT YET been bodily resurrected and yet JESUS is SEEN IN GLORY as you put it here as well.

Your argument has been nullified.

28About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John and James with him and went up onto a mountain to pray. 29As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning. 30Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. 31They spoke about his departure, a which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem. 32Peter and his companions were very sleepy, but when they became fully awake, they saw his glory and the two men standing with him. 33As the men were leaving Jesus, Peter said to him, “Master, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.” (He did not know what he was saying.)

34While he was speaking, a cloud appeared and covered them, and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. 35A voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him.” 36When the voice had spoken, they found that Jesus was alone. The disciples kept this to themselves and did not tell anyone at that time what they had seen.

 

[Amanuensis]

The Old Testament. The Hebrew word so rendered is nepes [v,p,n]. It appears 755 times in the Old Testament. The King James Version uses 42 different English terms to translate it. The two most common renderings are "soul" (428 times) and "life" (117 times). It is the synchronic use of nepes [v,p,n] that determines its meaning rather than the diachronic. Hebrew is inclined to use one and the same word for a variety of functions that are labeled with distinct words in English.

Nepes [v,p,n] in the Old Testament is never the "immortal soul" but simply the life principle or living being. Such is observable in Genesis 1:20, 21, 24, where the qualified (living) nepes [v,p,n] refers to animals and is rendered "living creatures." The same Hebrew term is then applied to the creation of humankind in Genesis 2:7, where dust is vitalized by the breath of God and becomes a "living being." Thus, human being shares soul with the animals. It is the breath of God that makes the lifeless dust a "living being" — person.

Frequently in the Old Testament nepes [v,p,n] designates the individual ( Lev 17:10 ; 23:30 ). In its plural form it indicates a number of individuals such as Abraham's party ( Gen 12:5 ), the remnant left behind in Judah ( Jer 43:6 ), and the offspring of Leah ( Gen 46:15 ).

Nepes [v,p,n] qualified by "dead" means a dead individual, a corpse ( Num 6:6 ). More significant here is that nepes [v,p,n] can mean the corpse of an individual even without the qualification "dead" ( Num 5:2 ; 6:11 ). Here nepes [v,p,n] is detached from the concept of life and refers to the corpse. Hebrew thought could not conceive of a disembodied nepes [v,p,n].

Frequently nepes [v,p,n] takes the place of a personal or reflexive pronoun ( Psalm 54:4 ; Prov 18:7 ). Admittedly this movement from the nominal to the pronominal is without an exact borderline. The Revised Standard Version reflects the above understanding of nepes [v,p,n] by replacing the King James Version "soul" with such translations as "being, " "one, " "self, " "I/me."

Nepes [v,p,n] is also used to designate parts of the body, primarily to stress their characteristics and functions. It can refer to the throat ( Isa 5:14 ; Hab 2:5 ), noting that it can be parched and dry ( Num 11:6 ; Jeremiah 31:12 Jeremiah 31:25 ), discerning ( Prov 16:23 ), hungry ( Num 21:5 ), and breathing ( Jer 2:24 ). Nepes [v,p,n] also can mean the neck, and the vital function that takes place there, noting that it can be ensnared ( 1 Sam 28:9 ; Psalm 105:18 ), humbled and endangered ( Prov 18:7 ), and bowed to the ground ( Psalm 44:25 ). Even while focusing on a single part of the body, by synecodoche the whole person is represented.

Nepes [v,p,n] is often used to express physical needs such as hunger ( Deut 12:20 ; 1 Sam 2:16 ) and thirst ( Prov 25:25 ). It can be used of excessive desires (gluttony Prov 23:2 ) and of unfulfilled desires (barrenness 1 Sam 1:15 ). Volitional/spiritual yearning is also assigned to nepes [v,p,n], such as the desire for God ( Psalm 42:1-2 ), justice ( Isa 26:8-9 ), evil ( Prov 21:10 ), and political power ( 2 Sam 3:21 ). Emotions are expressed by nepes [v,p,n] so that it feels hate (so used of Yahweh Isa 1:14 ), grief ( Jer 13:17 ), joy and exultation, disquietude ( Psalm 42:5 ), and unhappiness ( 1 Sam 1:15 ).

Clearly, then, in the Old Testament a mortal is a living soul rather than having a soul. Instead of splitting a person into two or three parts, Hebrew thought sees a unified being, but one that is profoundly complex, a psychophysical being.

The New Testament. The counterpart to nepes [v,p,n] in the New Testament is psyche [yuchv] (nepes [v,p,n] is translated as psyche [yuchv] six hundred times in the Septaugint). Compared to nepes [v,p,n] in the Old Testament, psyche [yuchv] appears relatively infrequently in the New Testament. This may be due to the fact that nepes [v,p,n] is used extensively in poetic literature, which is more prevalent in the Old Testament than the New Testament. The Pauline Epistles concentrate more on soma [sw'ma] (body) and pneuma [pneu'ma] (spirit) than psyche [yuchv].

This word has a range of meanings similar to nepes [v,p,n]. It frequently designates life: one can risk his life ( John 13:37 ; Acts 15:26 ; Rom 16:4 ; Php 2:30 ), give his life ( Matt 20:28 ), lay down his life ( John 10:15 John 10:17-18 ), forfeit his life ( Matt 16:26 ), hate his life ( Luke 14:26 ), and have his life demanded of him ( Luke 12:20 ).

Psyche, as its Old Testament counterpart, can indicate the person ( Acts 2:41 ; 27:37 ). It also serves as the reflexive pronoun designating the self ("I'll say to myself" Luke 12:19 ; "as my witness" 2 Cor 1:23 ; "share our lives" 1 Thess 2:8 ).

Psyche can express emotions such as grief ( Matt 26:38, ; Mark 14:34 ), anguish ( John 12:27 ), exultation ( Luke 1:46 ), and pleasure ( Matt 12:18 ).

The adjectival form "soulish" indicates a person governed by the sensuous nature with subjection to appetite and passion. Such a person is "natural/unspiritual" and cannot receive the gifts of God's Spirit because they make no sense to him ( 1 Cor 2:14-15 ). As in the Old Testament, the soul relates humans to the animal world ( 1 Cor 15:42-50 ) while it is the spirit of people that allows a dynamic relationship with God.

There are passages where psyche [yuchv] stands in contrast to the body, and there it seems to refer to an immortal part of man. "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell" ( Matt 10:28 ). While Scripture generally addresses humans as unitary beings, there are such passages that seem to allow divisibility within unity.

Carl Schultz

See also Person, Personhood; Spirit

Bibliography. W. Dryness, Themes in Old Testament Theology; R. H. Gundry, Somma in Biblical Theology; R. Jewett, Paul's Anthropological Terms; N. Snaith, The Distinctive Ideas of the Old Testament; H. W. Wolff, Anthropology of the Old Testament.

Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology. Edited by Walter A. Elwell
Copyright © 1996 by Walter A. Elwell. Published by Baker Books, a division of
Baker Book House Company, Grand Rapids, Michigan USA.
All rights reserved. Used by permission.
For usage information, please read the Baker Book House Copyright Statement.

[N] indicates this entry was also found in Nave's Topical Bible
Bibliography Information
Elwell, Walter A. "Entry for 'Soul'". "Evangelical Dictionary of

It is my impression from above that spirit is the life force of humans. Soul is their real being.

I believe that spirit and soul are used interchangeably. I believe Wayne Grudem has a good paper on this available for download somewhere. I don't believe the verses that are used from Timothy and Hebrews were intended to teach three parts but are just repetition of expression. The paper from Grudem goes through all the verses in the New Testament and proves that Jesus used the words interchangeably. I was convinced after I read his article on this. I think you can find it also in his award winning Systematic Theology book used in many bible colleges for first year students.

So much that is taught today by popular christian authors and churches on three part human nature is completely made up or copied from each other with nothing more than two verse in the New Testament that mention spirit, soul and body and from that reference they made up all their own reasoning as to what the separation between spirit and soul is all about. Not a shred of scripture to back up their theories.

I know this deserves it's own thread.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Do you even believe in hell fire? Is it present or future? Who goes there?

Not only do I believe in hellfire, but it's WAY hotter than yours Yours will only smolder the wicked for all eternity, but Biblical hellfire will completely "burn them up", says Malachi, and will "leave them neither root nor branch" which all commentators agree - even those who believe in your never-ending hellfire - that this was a proverb among the Hebrews that meant "complete and total destruction".

Bro, can you please give ear to what experts on the other side of the issue have to say? Are they not as authoritative concerning Greek and Hebrew as are those who preach Eternal Torment? Please listen to "Translation of the NT in Modern Speech" author Dr. R. F. Weymouth's comment:

​

"My mind fails to conceive a grosser misrepresentation of language than when five or six of the strongest words which the Greek tongue possesses signifying to "destroy" or "destruction" are translated to mean, "maintain an everlasting but wretched existence". To translate "black" as "white" is nothing to this. By "perish", the apostle (John) means "pass out of existence"...​

​

"The use in the NT of such words as "death", "destruction", "fire", "perish" to describe Future Retribution point to the likelihood of fearful anguish followed by extinction of being".​

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

When you don’t take the bible literally, you can make it say anything you want.

Rest/Sleep:

[sleep, asleep, sleepeth] Deuteronomy 31:16; 2 Samuel 7:12; Job 3:13, 7:21, 14:12; 1 Kings 1:21, 2:10, 11:21,43, 14:20,31, 15:8,24, 16:6,28, 22:40,50; 2 Kings 8:24, 10:35, 13:9,13, 14:16,22,29, 15:7,22,38, 16:20, 20:21, 21:18, 24:6; 2 Chronicles 9:31, 12:16, 14:1, 16:13, 21:1, 26:2,23, 27:9, 28:27, 32:33, 33:20; Job 14:12; Psalms 13:3; Matthew 27:52; John 11:11-13; Acts 7:60, 13:36; 1 Corinthians 15:6,18,20,51; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15; 2 Peter 3:4; [awake] Job 14:12; Psalms 17:15; Isaiah 26:19; Daniel 12:2; John 11:11-13; [grave/bed] Job 17:13; Psalms 139:8; Luke 17:34; [fathers and prophets are dead] John 6:49,58, 8:52,53; Acts 2:29,34, 13:36; Hebrews 11:4,13,16,40

 

[Amanuensis]

Not only do I believe in hellfire, but it's WAY hotter than yours Yours will only smolder the wicked for all eternity, but Biblical hellfire will completely "burn them up", says Malachi, and will "leave them neither root nor branch" which all commentators agree - even those who believe in your never-ending hellfire - that this was a proverb among the Hebrews that meant "complete and total destruction".

Bro, can you please give ear to what experts on the other side of the issue have to say? Are they not as authoritative concerning Greek and Hebrew as are those who preach Eternal Torment? Please listen to "Translation of the NT in Modern Speech" author Dr. R. F. Weymouth's comment:

​

"My mind fails to conceive a grosser misrepresentation of language than when five or six of the strongest words which the Greek tongue possesses signifying to "destroy" or "destruction" are translated to mean, "maintain an everlasting but wretched existence". To translate "black" as "white" is nothing to this. By "perish", the apostle (John) means "pass out of existence"...​

​

"The use in the NT of such words as "death", "destruction", "fire", "perish" to describe Future Retribution point to the likelihood of fearful anguish followed by extinction of being".​

Because like any other discipline or branch of science you will have someone with a different opinion than the most. However the majority of Hebrew and Greek scholars can and HAVE made a more excellent case for how the words translated destruction can be used as in a judgment context. Having neither root nor branch is obviously a declaration about their inheritance and families and those things that were important to the mindset of the people at that time.

Jesus brought an even fuller revelation of the eternal state of the damned and made it clear to everyone who reads the bible that there is an eternal torment, and a fire that is never quenched, any end to this would not be what Jesus articulated and no amount of attempts to make Jesus mean something else has been successful except from the perspective of the minority who want to believe a certain thing to calm their troubled minds over the horror of eternal torment. They simply cannot reconcile the "punishment fits the crime" with this concept because they don't have a Godly view of sin and the punishment that it deserves. They think that it is cruel for "good" people to suffer such a thing and therefore they want them to go to sleep forever instead, so they come up these explanations and some of their thoughts do come from thoughts borrowed by ancient Jews who also had a problem with the idea of eternal punishment, since the natural man has always had a problem seeing the just judgment of a holy God and always will these annihilation doctrines will continue to be taught as they always have. It is only the converted and regenerated that will say "even so, come Lord Jesus"

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

Do you even believe in hell fire? Is it present or future? Who goes there?

Yes, read the texts carefully.

The devil (and his angels) is/are not yet in the "fire". The fire is merely "prepared" (since the days of Noah), meaning 'ready'. You can see some of it, in the volcanic action and crustal friction and tension that erupts from time to time.

The devil and his angels (and yea all the wicked) do not get thrown into the fire until later:

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Mal_4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

For more on hellfire (aka Lake of fire), see:

All darkness [shall be] hid in his secret places: a fire not blown shall consume him; it shall go ill with him that is left in his tabernacle. (Job 20:26)

This [is] the portion of a wicked man from God, and the heritage appointed unto him by God. (Job 20:29)

For what portion of God [is there] from above? and [what] inheritance of the Almighty from on high? (Job 31:2)

[Is] not destruction to the wicked? and a strange [punishment] to the workers of iniquity? (Job 31:3)

The wicked shall be turned into hell, [and] all the nations that forget God. (Psalms 9:17)

Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins. (Psalms 7:9)

Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: [this shall be] the portion of their cup. (Psalms 11:6)

Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them. (Psalms 21:9)

For yet a little while, and the wicked [shall] not [be]: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it [shall] not [be]. (Psalms 37:10)

But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD [shall be] as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away. (Psalms 37:20)

For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off. (Psalms 37:28)

But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off. (Psalms 37:38)

As smoke is driven away, [so] drive [them] away: as wax melteth before the fire, [so] let the wicked perish at the presence of God. (Psalms 68:2)

Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. (Psalms 69:28)

For in the hand of the LORD [there is] a cup, and the wine is red; it is full of mixture; and he poureth out of the same: but the dregs thereof, all the wicked of the earth shall wring [them] out, [and] drink [them]. (Psalms 75:8)

All the horns of the wicked also will I cut off; [but] the horns of the righteous shall be exalted. (Psalms 75:10)

When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; [it is] that they shall be destroyed for ever: (Psalms 92:7)

For, lo, thine enemies, O LORD, for, lo, thine enemies shall perish; all the workers of iniquity shall be scattered. (Psalms 92:9)

Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD. (Psalms 104:35)

And a fire was kindled in their company; the flame burned up the wicked. (Psalms 106:18)

The wicked shall see [it], and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish. (Psalms 112:10)

The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy. (Psalms 145:20)

But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it. (Proverbs 2:22)

As the whirlwind passeth, so [is] the wicked no [more]: but the righteous [is] an everlasting foundation. (Proverbs 10:25)

The hope of the righteous [shall be] gladness: but the expectation of the wicked shall perish. (Proverbs 10:28)

The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth. (Proverbs 10:30)

The wicked are overthrown, and [are] not: but the house of the righteous shall stand. (Proverbs 12:7)

The light of the righteous rejoiceth: but the lamp of the wicked shall be put out. (Proverbs 13:9)

The house of the wicked shall be overthrown: but the tabernacle of the upright shall flourish. (Proverbs 14:11)

For there shall be no reward to the evil [man]; the candle of the wicked shall be put out. (Proverbs 24:20)

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. (Ezekiel 18:4)

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. (Ezekiel 18:20)

Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. (Isaiah 13:9)

They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one [tree] in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD. (Isaiah 66:17)

And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. (Isaiah 66:24)

For while [they be] folden together [as] thorns, and while they are drunken [as] drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry. (Nahum 1:10)

For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, [so] shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been. (Obadiah 1:16)

I will utterly consume all [things] from off the land, saith the LORD. (Zephaniah 1:2)

I will consume man and beast; I will consume the fowls of the heaven, and the fishes of the sea, and the stumblingblocks with the wicked; and I will cut off man from off the land, saith the LORD. (Zephaniah 1:3)

Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. (James 1:15)

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

But that which beareth thorns and briers [is] rejected, and [is] nigh unto cursing; whose end [is] to be burned. (Hebrews 6:8)

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. (2 Peter 3:10)

And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. (Revelation 20:9)

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

Do you even believe in hell fire? Is it present or future? Who goes there?

Yes, read the texts carefully. The devil (and his angels) is/are not yet in the "fire". The fire is merely "prepared" (since the days of Noah), meaning 'ready'. You can see some of it, in the volcanic action and crustal friction and tension that erupts from time to time.

The words used so far in describing the end of the wicked are Destroy, Blotted Out, Perished, Consumed Utterly, Cut Off, Dissolved, Melted, Devoured, Dead, Death, Hath Not Been, Not [any/no more], Burned Up, etc. [all taken from Strong's]:

[Hebrew: machah מחה; meaning: to wipe out; blot out, obliterate; exterminated]
[Hebrew: macah מסה; meaning: melt away, dissolve, liquefy, consumed]
[Hebrew: muwg מוג; meaning: to melt, dissolve, faint, dissipate, flow away]
[Hebrew: muwth מות; meaning: dead, death, kill, slain]
[Hebrew: da`ak דעך; meaning: extinguished, to go out, put out, dry up, made extinct, quenched]
[Hebrew: caphah ספה; meaning: to be swept away, destroyed, consumed]
[Hebrew: shachath שחת; meaning: destroyed, corrupted, ruined, decayed]
[Hebrew: parar פרר; meaning: break apart, frustrate, split, splinter to pieces, shatter, cracked up]
[Hebrew: 'abad אבד; meaning: perished, vanished, destroyed, die, exterminated, blot out, put to death]
[Hebrew: 'obed אבד; meaning: destruction, perish]
[Hebrew: gava` גוע; meaning: to expire, die, death, breathe ones last, yield up the last breath]
[Hebrew: cuwph סוף; meaning: to come to an end, to make an end, consume utterly, cause to cease, perish]
[Hebrew: damah דמה; meaning: to cease, cause to cease, cut off, destroy, perish, to be undone]
[Hebrew: charam חרם; meaning: to ban, destroy utterly and completely, exterminated, forfeited, divided, prohibited]
[Hebrew: kalah כלה; meaning: consumed, determined, ended, finished, completely spent, at an end, perish, terminated, annihilation, complete destruction]
[Hebrew: karath כרת; meaning: cut off, cut asunder, eliminate, kill, cut down]
[Hebrew: kachad כחד; meaning: hide, conceal, cut down, make desolate, destroy, cut off, annihilate, efface]
[Hebrew: bala` בלע; meaning: swallowed up, eaten up, to be ended]
[Hebrew: balah בלה; meaning: to wear out, wear away, use up completely]
[Hebrew: harac הרס; meaning: to tear down, break down, overthrow, destroy utterly]
[Hebrew: show' שוא; meaning: devastated, ruined, laid to waste]
[Hebrew: tsamath צמת; meaning: put an end to, cut off, destroy, exterminate, annihilate]
[Hebrew: shamad שמד; meaning: destroyed, exterminate, annihilated, devastated]
[Hebrew: naphal נפל; meaning: cast down, fail, waste away, overturn, knock down, fall]
[Hebrew: 'akal אכל; meaning: to eat, devour, consume, to be wasted, destroyed]
[Hebrew: chacal חסל; meaning: to consume, eaten up, bring to an end]
[Hebrew: tamam תמם; meaning: to be complete, finished, at an end, consumed, exhausted]
[Hebrew: 'oklah אכלה; meaning: object of devouring, consuming in judgment]
[Hebrew: maqaq מקק; meaning: to decay, pine away, rot, fester, corrupt, dissolve]
[Hebrew: guwz גוז; meaning: to pass over, pass away (of life), cut off]
[Hebrew: yatsath יצת; meaning: to be burned up, to be made desolate, set on fire]
[Hebrew: sĕrephah שרפה; meaning: burning, burn, burnt up throughly]

[Greek: apollymi ἀπόλλυμι; meaning: to destroy, put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin, render useless, kill, perish]
[Greek: lyō λύω; meaning: loosed, undone, annul, dissolve, do away with, overthrow, break up]
[Greek: katalyō καταλύω; meaning: dissolved, disunite, overthrow, render vain, bring to naught]
[Greek: analiskō ἀναλίσκω; meaning: to expend, consume, destroy]
[Greek: phtheirō φθείρω; meaning: to corrupt, to destroy, to perish, deprave]
[Greek: diaphtheirō διαφθείρω; meaning: to corrupt, consume, destroy, kill, eat up, ruin]
[Greek: aphanizō ἀφανίζω; meaning: to snatch away, take away, to make unseen, to destroy, consume, to make vanish]
[Greek: phthora φθορά; meaning: corruption, destruction, perishing, decay]
[Greek: kataphtheirō καταφθείρω; meaning: to corrupt, deprave, to destroy, perish]
[Greek: ekkoptō ἐκκόπτω; meaning: hewn down, cut off or out]
[Greek: apokoptō ἀποκόπτω; meaning: cut off, amputate]
[Greek: nekros νεκρός; meaning: lifeless, dead, deceased, breathed ones last, inanimate, inactive]
[Greek: nekroō νεκρόω; meaning: dead, put to death, to deprive of power, destroy the strength]
[Greek: apothnēskō ἀποθνῄσκω; meaning: to die, perish, dry up, eternal death]
[Greek: empi(m)prēmi ἐμπί(μ)πρημι; meaning: burn up, destroy by fire]
[Greek: katakaiō κατακαίω; meaning: to burn up, consume by fire]

Other passages can also be looked at individually, and such terms like "unquenchable", "eternal", "for ever and ever", "everlasting", etc and their Biblical use in terms of the righteous and the wicked in context.

Begin to ask, where are the all of the wicked [including Satan and his angels] standing in Revelation 20:8-9? Do they [the wicked] live there eternally or are they rather not completely destroyed so that the New Heaven and the New Earth may be created there, wherein dwelleth righteousness, peace, no more tears, pain or sorrow or sin or satan?

"...and there was found no place for them." Revelation 20:11

"... that no place was found for them ..." Daniel 2:35

Additionally, it is the Righteous who will eternally dwell with God, who is “a Spirit” [John 4:24 KJB], and “the Holy Spirit” the fullness of “fire” [Acts 2:3; Revelation 1:4; 4:5 KJB], who “baptize/s” with “fire” [Matthew 3:11; Mark 9:49; Luke 3:16 KJB], thus we will dwell with “everlasting burnings” [Isaiah 33:14 KJB], for God is a “consuming fire” [to sin and of “Love”] [Deuteronomy 4:24, 9:3; Hebrews 12:29; 1 John 4:8,16 KJB] and a “fire goeth before Him” [Psalms 97:3 KJB] which “shall devour before Him” [Psalms 50:3 KJB] and “he burned against Jacob like a flaming fire” [Lamentations 2:3 KJB], and for those whom He loves He is a “wall of fire round about” [Zechariah 2:5 KJB] and His “ministers a flame of fire” [Psalms 104:4; Hebrews 1:7 KJB] and His “tongue as a devouring fire” [Isaiah 30:7 KJB] His speech “fire” [2 Samuel 22:9; Psalms 18:8; Jeremiah 20:9; Acts 2:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:8 KJB], His “eyes … as a flame of fire” [Revelation 1:14, 2:18, 19:12 KJB], His “face as the sun” and His “feet a pillar of fire” [Matthew 17:2; 2 Corinthians 4:6; Revelation 1:15, 2:18, 10:1 KJB], for He is a “refiners fire” [Malachi 3:2 KJB] having a “throne of fire” [Psalms 89:36; Daniel 7:9; Ezekiel 1:26-28; Revelation 4:5 KJB], His Ten Commandments a “Fiery Law” [Deuteronomy 33:2; Ezekiel 28:14,16 KJB] and it is they who have the victory over sin who stand upon the sea of glass mingled with fire [Revelation 15:2 KJB], and will be as the burning bush which was not consumed [Exodus 3:3 KJB], for He is “Light”, even the Light of all.

However, the wicked are never immortal, for they are to be burnt up into smoke and ashes at the meeting out of Judgment, they are perished forever; Job 20:26,29, 31:2-3; Psalms 7:9, 9:17, 11:6, 21:9, 37:10, 37:20, 37:28,38, 68:2, 69:28, 75:8,10, 92:7,9, 104:35, 106:18, 112:10, 145:20; Proverbs 2:22, 10:25,28,30, 12:7, 13:9, 14:11, 24:20; Ezekiel 18:4, 18:20; Isaiah 13:9, 66:17,24; Nahum 1:10; Obadiah 1:16; Zephaniah 1:2-3; Matthew 10:28; John 3:16; Romans 6:23; Hebrews 6:8; James 1:15; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 20:9, 21:4 KJB.

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

Because like any other discipline or branch of science you will have someone with a different opinion than the most.

That's not how God's word is interpreted. God's word interprets itself (Genesis 40:8; 2 Peter 1:19-21; Isaiah 28:10,13, etc). God interprets God's own words (Luke 24:45; Daniel 2:18-30). The word itself is infallible (John 10:35), and contains everything needful (2 Timothy 3:16-17). We simply "amen" what is already written in the 66 books of scripture (1 Peter 4:11).

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

fire that is never quenched,

Quenched is a verb, meaning to deliberately put out. God does not deliberately put out the fire. The fire that annihilates the wicked, burns up all it's fuel and goes out on it's own (references already provided).

Old Jerusalem was destroyed by unquenchable fire in Nebuchadnezzar's day.

 

[Amanuensis]

Jesus brought a fuller revelation of the eternal torment that awaits the wicked dead. One must apply what Jesus said along with the Old Testament verses on the subject.

Using the Old Testament verses alone will reveal that the writers did not have a full revelation of the state of the wicked dead, however there were hints about what Jesus said in the OT.

But Jesus was much more verbose and now we have no excuse to ignore what Jesus said or to argue against what he said based on the limited revelation that had been given previous to Jesus's words.

It is impossible to believe in annihilation after reading what Jesus said on the subject. One must either come up with a reason why Jesus did not mean what he said, accuse the translators of error, or simply ignore what Jesus said and keep quoting Old Testament verses which were not the whole picture.

The ignoring of what Jesus said is the most common thing I think I have witnessed by annihilationists. Followed by translation error accusations.

 

[Amanuensis]

Quenched is a verb, meaning to deliberately put out. God does not deliberately put out the fire. The fire that annihilates the wicked, burns up all it's fuel and goes out on it's own (references already provided).

Thank you for proving my point about why your view has been rejected by the majority of scholars.

 

[Phoneman-777]

I do not have speakers.

Comparing Luke 16 with Matthew 15, we see the Gentile woman pleading with Jesus for a blessing, and after testing her faith with "it's not meet to take the children's bread and cast it to dogs" the woman replies to Jesus, "Truth Lord, yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their master's table".

>In the parable of Luke 16, the Rich Man said "father" Abraham, and Abraham said "son", which makes the Rich Man a "son of Abraham" and who were the "children of Abraham"? The Jews - the Rich Man represents the Jewish race.

>Lazarus is said to be outside with the "dogs" - to this day Jews refer to us Gentiles as "dogs" - it was as common an expression then as it is now. Lazarus represents the Gentiles.

>The Jews had always, more or less, sat at God's table, enjoying the covenants, lively oracles, promises, blessings, etc., while the Gentile dogs were outsiders looking in, desiring such blessings like that Syrophoenician woman. However, by the time Jesus came to them, they had allowed many crumbs of blessing to fall from that table, and finally cast aside and trampled on the ground the greatest blessing of all: Jesus.

>The Rich man winds up in torment in "hell" while Lazarus is in "comfort" in "Abraham's bosom". Jesus over and over warned that if the Jews continued in unbelief, the "kingdom of God shall be taken from you and given to another nation bringing forth the fruits thereof". After they crucified Him and the Gospel went to the Gentiles, the Gentiles received the "Comforter" while the lot of the Jews has been nothing but torment. One atrocity after another has marked the history of the Jewish people. Paul says "wrath has come upon them to the uttermost". History records unspeakable torment of the Jews, especially in the 20th century - when they said, "His blood be upon us and our children forever" they were indeed "turning the tables" upon themselves, amen?

>Matthew 21:45 KJV says "and when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He spoke of them" which is why they plotted to kill Him. When they heard Jesus say the Rich Man said "father" Abraham, and Abraham say "son" the Jews knew full well who Jesus was talking about, and when they heard the fate of the Rich Man would be torment while the Gentile dog Lazarus would be with Abraham, that was too much for them.

>Paul says "if ye belong to Christ, then are ye Abraham's seed" and we Gentiles who were once cut off from the blessings of God are now counted as "the children of Abraham and in the comfort of the bosom of Abraham" because we have the Comforter, the Holy Ghost.

Again, if we try to make the passage literal, many contradictions with other plain texts of Scripture arise, such as dead people possessing resurrection bodies before the resurrection takes place, the wicked suffering punishment now instead of being "reserved" for punishment "unto the day of Judgment" at the end of the world "to be punished", as well as other contradictions.

But if we allow the passage to be the parable that it is, the interpretation is spot on.

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

However the majority of Hebrew and Greek scholars can and HAVE made a more excellent case for how the words translated destruction can be used as in a judgment context.

Mal 2:12: "The LORD will cut off the man that doeth this, the master and the scholar, out of the tabernacles of Jacob, and him that offereth an offering unto the LORD of hosts."

Mat 7:13: "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:"

That's your "majority" of "scholar".

 

[Phoneman-777]

When you don’t take the bible literally, you can make it say anything you want.

True, but when we confuse "present tense" with "future tense" we can do the same thing, right or wrong?

(BTW, there are many passages intended to be taken figuratively.)

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

made it clear to everyone who reads the bible that there is an eternal torment,

No, there is no eternal torment in scripture. There is only limited torment unto the second death (annihilation). Torment is not the wages of sin, the second death is, but limited torment exists along the way to the final end (2nd death).

God is long suffering with the wicked, not eternally suffering them.

The flood of Noah is the type that matches the antitype.

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

I believe that spirit and

Now, you use the word "souls", and you teach that 'it' "leaves the body at death". You also teach that these "souls" are also in heaven (or hell), and without bodies.

So, what will you do with these scriptures, according to your theology?


Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.


And levy a tribute unto the LORD of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, [both] of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep: Numbers 31:28

Cows [beeves, bovine], asses and sheep are "souls".

Is this an isolated case, or is this noted through all of scripture? It is throughout scripture:


And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea. Revelation 16:3

Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; Acts 17:25

In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind. Job 12:10

But if the priest buy any soul with his money, he shall eat of it, and he that is born in his house: they shall eat of his meat. Leviticus 22:11
See Joshua 10, in every instance where it is written that Joshua destroyed "all the souls that were therein":


"...he utterly destroyed, them, and all the souls that were therein..." Joshua 10:28

"...he smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain in it..." Joshua 10:30

"...and smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein..." Joshua 10:32

"...smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein he utterly destroyed that day..." Joshua 10:35

And they took it, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king thereof, and all the cities thereof, and all the souls that were therein; he left none remaining, according to all that he had done to Eglon; but destroyed it utterly, and all the souls that were therein. Joshau 10:37

"And he took it, and the king thereof, and all the cities thereof; and they smote them with the edge of the sword, and utterly destroyed all the souls that were therein; he left none remaining..." Joshua 10:39

So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded. Joshua 10:40

...just as Joshua did to Jericho, so he did to those cities, "And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." Joshua 6:21

...just as Joshua did to Haxor, so he did to those cities, "And they smote all the souls that were therein with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying them: there was not any left to breathe: and he burnt Hazor with fire." Joshua 11:11

Job 12:7 But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and the fowls of the air, and they shall tell thee:
Job 12:8 Or speak to the earth, and it shall teach thee: and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee.
Job 12:9 Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this?
Job 12:10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.

Help me out here, why don'tcha. Don't you know of any cases of creatures that have died and come back to life ( Dog brought back to life after being dead for 10 minutes, owner says )? Were they floating around somewhere too? According to your theology, the religion of the 'native Americans' and their spirit guides, and those of Japan, and other animists, etc are truth according to your theology in the conclusion it must bring.

With such an text as this, surely everyone goes to Heaven:


Ecc_12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Did you know that those who hold to such teachings as you do, in the occult world, teach that very thing? They teach that Hitler and PolPot and all the Criminals of the world are in Heaven, and some even teach that they are in higher or more exalted positions than Jesus.

Why not take a moment to really think about all the conclusions your theology teaches.

The old man of sin. Can it ever die? According to your theology, No. You have 'immortalized' it through such theology. A powerless Gospel, no victory over sin, for the old man for ever remains alive somewhere because you teach that thoughts do not ever really perish.