Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

[Phoneman-777]

But wouldn't Jewish tradition be more likely that which was the "familiar content" of the parable than any Greek pagan idea?

Not necessarily. Paul drew upon pagan tradition to illustrate Biblical truth, as well. Sometimes, you gotta be a "Roman" to reach Romans.

Are we just going to ignore the Biblical contradictions which arise by making the Rich Man and Lazarus a literal story, instead of the parable it is?

 

[Duckybill]

There is ZERO proof that Luke 16 is a parable!

"The rich man also died"
"being in torments"
"he cried"
"I am tormented in this flame"
"this place of torment"

 

[Phoneman-777]

I don't see how that applies.

You concede that Jesus was using their belief system to teach a lesson in a parable story.

You then say that the belief system they were using was a pagan belief about immortality.
But the audience were Jewish and their belief system was what Jesus was referencing. It included their idea that there was an abode for the wicked dead where there was torment and that there was going to be a feast table waiting for the righteous and they would set at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

It is a well known fact that at the time of the arrival of the Messiah, the many years of Hellenistic influence had taken its toll on the Jews. There arose a strong desire that Judaism be invested with qualities that would make it "commendable" to the pagans, much like modern Christian universities abandon Creationism and adjust curriculum to incorporate things like "evolution" and "sociology" in order to bring themselves more in line with their atheist counterparts. There had been Jewish schools built in Greek centers of culture where rabbis were corrupted with false ideas about salvation, death, etc. (much like how here in America when Protestant Historicism began to be replaced with Jesuit "Left Behind" Futurism during the 20th century, and Bible colleges and universities began pumping out preachers, each with a diploma in one hand and a Scofield Reference Bible in the other).

By the time Jesus got here, the Jews were so confused about the subjects of death, salvation, duty toward God and neighbor, prophecy, etc., it's no wonder Jesus had to look past the "learned" people of Israel and call ignorant fishermen.

 

[Phoneman-777]

That is an allegory, not a parable. You should start saying that this story is an allegory, that would save a lot of time.

And there is a difference between allegory and parables in ancient Hebrew literature and it is taught in bible colleges. It is not splitting hairs. Jesus audience knew what a parable was according to their culture and what an allegory was which the Jews used often in their teachings and writings and there was a difference between them they were taught in synagoge school.

You are following the rules of allegory with this explanation. If you were to stick to the allegory that Jesus was saying that the rich man represents all unbelieving Jews who will not believe Moses and the Prophets and therefore will not believe if one rose from the dead (but the believing gentiles who believe Moses and the Prophets will inherit their place in the coming kingdom) I can pretty much get on the same page with you there.

But if the beggar represents all believing gentiles who inherit a place at the table with Abraham and we will say that is an allegory of the blessings in total that include many things in allegorical form, then we can say that the Torment and flames of the unbelieving Jews represent many untold torments and sufferings in allegorical form.

Now whether we approach this as a parable (which I have previously identified the lesson using the rules of parables) or whether we apply the rules of allegory to this we still end up with a very clear teaching that there are torments awaiting the wicked unbelieving Jews who do not believe what Moses and the Prophets (scriptures) teach?

We cannot remove the symbolism of the torments from the allegory without assigning an allegorical meaning to the torments.
We may not know exactly what they are, and I concede they are not the same flames as the campfire flame since that is physical and the allegorical flame is a spiritual context, nevertheless assigning the allegorical meaning of the torments and flame cannot be sweet blissful sleep and non existence as that would not fit any reasonable allegorical torment in anyone's frame of reference this life of the next.

You've made that point before, thank you. What you need to do is focus on what is a way more important issue at hand:

• that making the Rich Man and Lazarus a literal story introduces a host of irreconcilable Biblical contradictions which must be ignored in order to continue to make the passage support Immortal Soul/Eternal Torment doctrine, or,...
• we must accept the passage for what it is: a parable in which things happen which cannot and do not happen in real experience

 

[Runningman]

If there's no eternal Hell fire then let's party! We will all have eternal peace even Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Castro. We can commit murder all day long and still have eternal peace, if you are right.

So where's all those verses you're talking about? It's a very dangerous thing to remove the "everlasting fire" from the Bible since Jesus was perfectly clear that many will burn in Hell "forever and ever". You're calling Jesus a liar.

Matthew 25:41-46 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The word of God refutes you.

Psalm 1:6
6For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Psalm 37:20
20But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Psalm 92:7
7When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:

Ecclesiates 9:5
5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Ezekiel 18:20
20The soul that sinneth, it shall die...

Malachi 4:1, 3
1For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
3And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Matthew 10:28
28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell

John 3:16
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:36
36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Romans 2:7
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Romans 6:23
23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Philippians 3:18-19
18(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

2 Thessalonians 1:9
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Hebrews 10:26-27
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Hebrews 10:39
39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

James 4:12
12There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

2 Peter 2:6
6And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

2 Peter 3:7
7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Revelation 20:14
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 21:8
8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[TheLearner]

Can we really declare "Abraham's bosom" as literal and then point to that as "proof" that it's literal? Isn't that the very definition of "circular reasoning"?

A little humor I found online: Outside Hell Michigan.


Brother, when Jesus gives a parable, he often had to explain it to his disciples. He did not have to explain Luke 16-17 to them. Which is one reason I do not think it was a parable.

 

[TheLearner]

Not necessarily. Paul drew upon pagan tradition to illustrate Biblical truth, as well. Sometimes, you gotta be a "Roman" to reach Romans.

Are we just going to ignore the Biblical contradictions which arise by making the Rich Man and Lazarus a literal story, instead of the parable it is?

https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/11900-paradise
https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/7534-hell

I am sure you would agree that the first day of the week is not the seventh day of the week. And, that early Christians in the NT did things like meet together on the first day. I expect that Jewish Christians would meet on the Seventh Day.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Now, fear is a warranted motivation in the word of the Lord (Job 28:28, Luke 12:4-5, 1 Peter 1:17).

And the Bible definitely teaches that the unredeemed sinners shall face "everlasting fire" (Matthew 25:41) as "everlasting punishment" (Matthew 25:46); which will be characterized by "wailing and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50).

So, if you think that that is "fear-mongering" then I would conclude that you yourself do not have much assurance of your own salvation.

Since you don't have such an assurance, I would suggest that you seek the Lord and His righteousness until you have found it.

For I have no fear of hell for as long as I walk within the boundaries of a life filled with faith.

And I do believe that hell is indeed, everlasting torments.

Are Sodom and Gomorrah still burning with that "everlasting fire"? No, they're under the Dead Sea.

Does "eternal redemption" means Jesus will be nailed to a Cross for our redemption over and over every day for all eternity?

Does "eternal judgment" mean "order in the court" over and over -- that the judgment will never end?

Does the text say "everlasting punishMENT" or "everlasting punishING"?

If it said, "punishing", I'd join the Eternal Torment crowd in a heartbeat.

It...says....punishment.


And, what is the punishment? IT'S DEATH!!!!!!!

 

[Phoneman-777]

A little humor I found online: Outside Hell Michigan.
View attachment 235625

Brother, when Jesus gives a parable, he often had to explain it to his disciples. He did not have to explain Luke 16-17 to them. Which is one reason I do not think it was a parable.

I heard about that place years ago. Do you know why then named it that?

 

[Runningman]

A little humor I found online: Outside Hell Michigan.
View attachment 235625

Brother, when Jesus gives a parable, he often had to explain it to his disciples. He did not have to explain Luke 16-17 to them. Which is one reason I do not think it was a parable.

Jesus wasn’t speaking to His disciples there. As always, His disciples were present, but the audience was a random assortment of sinners and unspiritual people. It’s a parable.

 

[TheLearner]

It is a well known fact that at the time of the arrival of the Messiah, the many years of Hellenistic influence had taken its toll on the Jews. There arose a strong desire that Judaism be invested with qualities that would make it "commendable" to the pagans, much like modern Christian universities abandon Creationism and adjust curriculum to incorporate things like "evolution" and "sociology" in order to bring themselves more in line with their atheist counterparts. There had been Jewish schools built in Greek centers of culture where rabbis were corrupted with false ideas about salvation, death, etc. (much like how here in America when Protestant Historicism began to be replaced with Jesuit "Left Behind" Futurism during the 20th century, and Bible colleges and universities began pumping out preachers, each with a diploma in one hand and a Scofield Reference Bible in the other).

By the time Jesus got here, the Jews were so confused about the subjects of death, salvation, duty toward God and neighbor, prophecy, etc., it's no wonder Jesus had to look past the "learned" people of Israel and call ignorant fishermen.

If one will read the book below, they will find that every page of the NT has Hellenistic parrells. There was an article a while back on parallelomania. https://www.sbl-site.org/assets/pdfs/presidentialaddresses/jbl81_1_1sandmel1961.pdf

Hellenistic Commentary to the New Testament
Boring, M. Eugene; Klaus Berger, and Carsten Colpe eds.

 

[TheLearner]

Parallelomania
In historical analysis, biblical criticism and comparative mythology, parallelomania refers to a phenomenon where authors perceive apparent similarities and construct parallels and analogies allegedly without historical basis.
https://findwords.info/term/parallelomania

https://www.sbl-site.org/assets/pdfs/presidentialaddresses/jbl81_1_1sandmel1961.pdf
https://theaquilareport.com/parallelomania/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallelomania_and_parallelophobia
https://vridar.org/2014/03/20/parallels-or-parallelomania-how-to-tell-the-difference/
https://theaquilareport.com/parallelomania/

Today this is known as the copycat thesis
https://www.tektonics.org/copycathub.php

The Babylon Connection? Paperback – March 1, 1997
by Ralph Woodrow (Author)


https://www.google.com/search?q=cop...AHxAZIBAzItMZgBAKABAqABAcABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz

 

[Phoneman-777]

God created the body, brought it to life with the spirit and created the soul to occupy a living body. That’s man, a tri-part being.

Genesis 2:7 KJV says something totally different to that. It says the Soul comes into existence as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life. Read it for yourself:

"And God formed man of the Dust of the ground, breathed into his nostrils the Breath of Life, and Dust of the ground became a living Soul."

 

[TheLearner]

The word of God refutes you.

Psalm 1:6
6For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Psalm 37:20
20But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Psalm 92:7
7When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:

Ecclesiates 9:5
5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Ezekiel 18:20
20The soul that sinneth, it shall die...

Malachi 4:1, 3
1For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
3And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Matthew 10:28
28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell

John 3:16
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:36
36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Romans 2:7
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Romans 6:23
23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Philippians 3:18-19
18(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

2 Thessalonians 1:9
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Hebrews 10:26-27
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Hebrews 10:39
39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

James 4:12
12There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

2 Peter 2:6
6And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

2 Peter 3:7
7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Revelation 20:14
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 21:8
8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Your texts speak of physical death and ruin friend.

 

[Journeyman]

What is the difference between an unquenchable fire and an eternal fire?

Jude shows us that eternal fire annihilated people. The fire was unquenchable,

Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, sufferingt he vengeance of eternal fire. Jde.1:7

It's very sad how people believe our God permits never ending suffering.

 

[Phoneman-777]

And then spends the rest of the chapter explaining about how the body is sown and raised. Our soul will be given a new glorified body to live in for all eternity at the resurrection.

Wrong. A "Soul" is the result of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life. An infant is a Soul, a person is a Soul, an elephant or a giraffe is a "Soul".

According to Genesis 2:7 KJV, the Soul comes into existence as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life, and therefore goes out of existence at the disunion of the two when the Breath of Life returns to God and the Body returns to the dust.

 

[Phoneman-777]

4 Maccabees 13:17
New Revised Standard Version
For if we so die, Abraham and Isaac and Jacob will welcome us, and all the fathers will praise us.”

The Apocrypha is bulldookey when it comes to truth - perhaps good history, but inspiration? No way. No wonder the Papacy says if thoise who refuse to believe in the Apocrypha, "let them be anathema". If lies were currency, the Papacy would have enough to stretch to Jupiter and back.

 

[TheLearner]

The Apocrypha is bulldookey when it comes to truth - perhaps good history, but inspiration? No way. No wonder the Papacy says if thoise who refuse to believe in the Apocrypha, "let them be anathema". If lies were currency, the Papacy would have enough to stretch to Jupiter and back.

True about history. Why were those books part of the King James Bible? I have heard two answers "profitable to read" and inspired.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Jude shows us that eternal fire annihilated people. The fire was unquenchable,

Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, sufferingt he vengeance of eternal fire. Jde.1:7

It's very sad how people believe our God permits never ending suffering.

I've come to understand that the reason why so many Christians today are so confused is that they're forced to check their brains at the door before they're allowed to get baptized.

They read the word "unquenchable" and immediately think "eternal burning". That's because it requires brains to understand that "unquenchable" means "extinguish" which is "action undertaken to cause a fire to cease from burning".

When a fire consumes all the fuel and goes out, do we say, "the fire was quenched" or do we say "the fire burned itself out"?

"Unquenchable fire" simply means the fire will be so great, no amount of fire engines will be able to extinguish it, period. Have people ever heard the firemen say, "We can't put it out, we'll have to just try to control it from spreading while it burns itself out"? Sure they have...but when they open the Bible and read "unquenchable fire", well...............

 

[Phoneman-777]

True about history. Why were those books part of the King James Bible? I have heard two answers "profitable to read" and inspired.

You're not asking enough questions!!!

You forgot to include, "Why was it REMOVED from the KJV? The reason you didn't ask that is because you are a either a Jesuit Futurist or Jesuit Preterist and NOT a Protestant Historicist like me. Protestant Historicists know the greatest threat to the truth is the Papacy, the predicted Antichrist of Bible prophecy, and thus, we know that all these former Catholics who became Protestant Reformers among which were the translators of the KJV Bible who left Catholicism and joined the ranks of Protestantism often brought with them Papal errors, which were only later discovered to be such and then abandoned.

As these great men studied further and further, they found the Apocrypha to contain many gnostic corruptions, such as "almsgiving doth procure salavation" and immediately understood why the Papacy insisted on it. We can buy salvation? Well, that flies right in the face of Luther's 95 Theses against Indulgences, right?

I keep telling so many of you that your doctrines and eschatology are so in line with Papal error, I fear you will all one day just up and join the damned thing.