Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!
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( I would revise that just a bit to say there is a natural realm and a
supernatural. But I'm not insisting; just saying.)
Well; until somebody out there can explain to me how a corpse is able to
communicate with another corpse from grave to grave, I will remain
compelled by reason and logic to conclude that Luke 16:19-31 speaks of
realities instead of fantasies.
Plus:
• Luke 16:25 . . Abraham said: Son, remember . . .
Now right there we should bring in Solomon because he said:
"As for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all." (Ecc 9:5)
It's likely to me that Solomon's "the dead" refers to people's remains, i.e.
their corpse. So if people's corpse is incapable of consciousness, then how
did Abraham and the rich man manage to conduct a sensible conversation
with each other in the afterlife?
Anyway: I should think that one of the negative aspects of perdition is
memory. How people down there retain their memories sans the brain cells
they left behind with their corpse, I don't know; but they do, just as the rich.
man in that story is able to experience thirst sans a flesh and blood tongue.
Apparently God has some sort of file transfer protocol that silicon valley has
yet to discover.
The older one gets, the more memories they accumulate, and many of those
memories haunt us with terrible regret. However, people down below not
only have to cope with their bad memories, but also the good ones too, and
I should think it's remembering the good things they enjoyed in life that
makes their situation only worse in the heat.
If everybody was born and raised in an oven; and never once ventured out;
that would be the only life they've ever known, so they wouldn't have a clue
what it's like to really live. For them the old maxim "Ignorance is bliss"
would certainly hold true. For example: many of the people born and raised
in Kim Jong-Un's North Korea sincerely believe the entire world is no better
off than they are because they just simply don't know any better.
_
( I would revise that just a bit to say there is a natural realm and a
supernatural. But I'm not insisting; just saying.)
Well; until somebody out there can explain to me how a corpse is able to
communicate with another corpse from grave to grave, I will remain
compelled by reason and logic to conclude that Luke 16:19-31 speaks of
realities instead of fantasies.
Plus:
• Luke 16:25 . . Abraham said: Son, remember . . .
Now right there we should bring in Solomon because he said:
"As for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all." (Ecc 9:5)
It's likely to me that Solomon's "the dead" refers to people's remains, i.e.
their corpse. So if people's corpse is incapable of consciousness, then how
did Abraham and the rich man manage to conduct a sensible conversation
with each other in the afterlife?
Anyway: I should think that one of the negative aspects of perdition is
memory. How people down there retain their memories sans the brain cells
they left behind with their corpse, I don't know; but they do, just as the rich.
man in that story is able to experience thirst sans a flesh and blood tongue.
Apparently God has some sort of file transfer protocol that silicon valley has
yet to discover.
The older one gets, the more memories they accumulate, and many of those
memories haunt us with terrible regret. However, people down below not
only have to cope with their bad memories, but also the good ones too, and
I should think it's remembering the good things they enjoyed in life that
makes their situation only worse in the heat.
If everybody was born and raised in an oven; and never once ventured out;
that would be the only life they've ever known, so they wouldn't have a clue
what it's like to really live. For them the old maxim "Ignorance is bliss"
would certainly hold true. For example: many of the people born and raised
in Kim Jong-Un's North Korea sincerely believe the entire world is no better
off than they are because they just simply don't know any better.
_
I don't know, but being a beggar by a rich man's gate, being covered in sores, and people being cruel to him isn't the gospel of how you get to paradise. Jesus never said that anywhere else. Jesus said the way to the Father is through faith in Him.
So if this story is literal, in my honest opinion, it creates a lot of problems. Jesus often used imaginary concepts or figurative language to explain real ideas.
For example, Jesus will come as a thief in the night. This does not mean Jesus is a thief or is condoning the sin of theft, it's just a comparison. In the parable of the 10 Virgins, people say the oil is the Holy Spirit and the 5 wise virgins told the 5 foolish to go purchase more oil. As we know from Acts 8:18-22, trying to purchase the Holy Spirit with money is a sin. The parable of the 10 virgins does not condone committing sin, however it just uses concepts to explain something.
In this same way, the rich man and Lazarus is not a real method of going to paradise; those who are covered in sores, lay at a rich man's gate, and beg and have no faith in Christ do not receive the gift of eternal life like the beggar apparently did. So I'm certain this is just a parable.
I don't know if they were trying to circumnavigate the truth, but I generally agree that we cannot trust commentaries from people as gospel. They may be helpful and interesting, but they are not the final word.
That's an interesting read and I enjoyed it, but from my perspective it's highly debatable and covers a lot of points I disagree with. However, the main point about Sheol/Hades is interesting, but there isn't enough clear-cut scripture about a place with literal gates near the center of the Earth. I would love to know more about that though.
So if this story is literal, in my honest opinion, it creates a lot of problems. Jesus often used imaginary concepts or figurative language to explain real ideas.
For example, Jesus will come as a thief in the night. This does not mean Jesus is a thief or is condoning the sin of theft, it's just a comparison. In the parable of the 10 Virgins, people say the oil is the Holy Spirit and the 5 wise virgins told the 5 foolish to go purchase more oil. As we know from Acts 8:18-22, trying to purchase the Holy Spirit with money is a sin. The parable of the 10 virgins does not condone committing sin, however it just uses concepts to explain something.
In this same way, the rich man and Lazarus is not a real method of going to paradise; those who are covered in sores, lay at a rich man's gate, and beg and have no faith in Christ do not receive the gift of eternal life like the beggar apparently did. So I'm certain this is just a parable.
I don't know if they were trying to circumnavigate the truth, but I generally agree that we cannot trust commentaries from people as gospel. They may be helpful and interesting, but they are not the final word.
That's an interesting read and I enjoyed it, but from my perspective it's highly debatable and covers a lot of points I disagree with. However, the main point about Sheol/Hades is interesting, but there isn't enough clear-cut scripture about a place with literal gates near the center of the Earth. I would love to know more about that though.
Most Parables are recorded in some similar form or fashion among the 4 Gospels.
But the Parable of the Rich Man/Lazarus cannot be found in the other 3 Gospels.
Kind of Strange how Luke heard this, but Matthew, and Peter [Mark his Disciple], and John did not hear this to record it.
One would think the Disciples were aware of every Teaching of Christ, but Luke, is the only one who did.
But the Parable of the Rich Man/Lazarus cannot be found in the other 3 Gospels.
Kind of Strange how Luke heard this, but Matthew, and Peter [Mark his Disciple], and John did not hear this to record it.
One would think the Disciples were aware of every Teaching of Christ, but Luke, is the only one who did.
Might help to get factual.
"But ABRAHAM SAID, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented."
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and SEETH ABRAHAM afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
29 ABRAHAM SAITH unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
IF IT IS A LIE, as we are be made to believe, then Abraham said NOTHING and Jesus lied.
"But ABRAHAM SAID, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented."
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and SEETH ABRAHAM afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
29 ABRAHAM SAITH unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
IF IT IS A LIE, as we are be made to believe, then Abraham said NOTHING and Jesus lied.
Jesus says they will be "destroyed" in hell.
Let's ask the author of the New Testament in Modern Speech, Dr. R. F. Weymouth, one of the greatest Greek scholars of modern times, what he thinks about what Jesus said:
"My mind fails to conceive a grosser misrepresentation of language than when five or six of the strongest words which the Greek tongue possesses, signify to 'destroy" or "destruction', are explained to mean "maintaining an everlasting but wretched existence". To translate 'black' as 'white' is nothing to this."
And on 1 Corinthians 15:18 KJV, "By 'perish', the Apostle here apparently means "pass out of existence".
And on Hebrews 9:28 KJV, "The use in the N.T. of such words as 'death', 'destruction', 'fire', 'perish' to describe future retribution point to the likelyhood of fearful anguish followed by extinction of being."
Let's ask the author of the New Testament in Modern Speech, Dr. R. F. Weymouth, one of the greatest Greek scholars of modern times, what he thinks about what Jesus said:
"My mind fails to conceive a grosser misrepresentation of language than when five or six of the strongest words which the Greek tongue possesses, signify to 'destroy" or "destruction', are explained to mean "maintaining an everlasting but wretched existence". To translate 'black' as 'white' is nothing to this."
And on 1 Corinthians 15:18 KJV, "By 'perish', the Apostle here apparently means "pass out of existence".
And on Hebrews 9:28 KJV, "The use in the N.T. of such words as 'death', 'destruction', 'fire', 'perish' to describe future retribution point to the likelyhood of fearful anguish followed by extinction of being."
Jesus is completely authoritative in the word of God over anyone who has spoken before HIM or words recorded after HIM.
NOw said about HIMself and Judgment in Matthew 25:31-34, 41-43
31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. the unbeliever from the believers is separated.
34 Then the King (Jesus)will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
41 “Then He (Jesus)will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ Jesus will say this to the unbelievers
He uses sheep and goats to bring contrast to those who are his and not because He has said HE is the great Shepard and we are HIS sheep are we really sheep? NO! BUT we are HIS people literally. Is the devil real? YES!. Did God prepare a place for the devil? Yes
IS that place of hell supernatural to keep a spirit being that the devil and his angels are? YES! is the devil going there forever? YES.
Those who are unbelievers going there forever? YES. Did Jesus say that? YES! Hell is eternal and God is eternal and gave eternal life.
Anyone who is self-decieved thinking hell is not eternal doesn't know the word of God and the words of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Some use word games like annihilation which is a concept from a carnal mind thinking of a spiritual place or supernatural.
They have taken out of context the eternal location of hell created by an eternal God who can separate one forever and have torment forever at the same time. Human reasoning even says how can something burn forever? YOU do not want to find out, do you? Hell is a faith place as well as heaven meaning you have to believe God that hell is real and heaven is real choose wrongly you will find out about one or the other without faith you can't see God or Please him, but Hell one will be horribly surprised as Jesus told in the parable of Lazarus & the Rich man. A Parable is not all Jesus said about hell but HE used them to bring the understanding of that place which is real and eternal.
NOw said about HIMself and Judgment in Matthew 25:31-34, 41-43
31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. the unbeliever from the believers is separated.
34 Then the King (Jesus)will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
41 “Then He (Jesus)will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ Jesus will say this to the unbelievers
He uses sheep and goats to bring contrast to those who are his and not because He has said HE is the great Shepard and we are HIS sheep are we really sheep? NO! BUT we are HIS people literally. Is the devil real? YES!. Did God prepare a place for the devil? Yes
IS that place of hell supernatural to keep a spirit being that the devil and his angels are? YES! is the devil going there forever? YES.
Those who are unbelievers going there forever? YES. Did Jesus say that? YES! Hell is eternal and God is eternal and gave eternal life.
Anyone who is self-decieved thinking hell is not eternal doesn't know the word of God and the words of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Some use word games like annihilation which is a concept from a carnal mind thinking of a spiritual place or supernatural.
They have taken out of context the eternal location of hell created by an eternal God who can separate one forever and have torment forever at the same time. Human reasoning even says how can something burn forever? YOU do not want to find out, do you? Hell is a faith place as well as heaven meaning you have to believe God that hell is real and heaven is real choose wrongly you will find out about one or the other without faith you can't see God or Please him, but Hell one will be horribly surprised as Jesus told in the parable of Lazarus & the Rich man. A Parable is not all Jesus said about hell but HE used them to bring the understanding of that place which is real and eternal.
You'll discard nothing. You'll simply dissemble into nothingness when the Breath returns to God and your Body to the dust.
Why do you and the rest of the Immortal Soul crowd want to be God, as Lucifer wanted? Why do you insist it is YOU who return to God at death, and not simply the Breath of God as stated in Genesis 2:7 KJV?
You all know full well none of you can "return" to the moon, but for some reason you insist you can "return" to God, though you've no sooner ever been in heaven as on the moon.
Why do you and the rest of the Immortal Soul crowd want to be God, as Lucifer wanted? Why do you insist it is YOU who return to God at death, and not simply the Breath of God as stated in Genesis 2:7 KJV?
You all know full well none of you can "return" to the moon, but for some reason you insist you can "return" to God, though you've no sooner ever been in heaven as on the moon.
"Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I [am] God? but thou [shalt be] a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee." - Ezekiel 28:8 KJV
You Immortal Soul/Eternal Torment guys are so easy, bro! Sodom and Gemmorah suffered the vengeance of this "eternal fire" too, but are they still burning? NO! They are under the Dead Sea!
"Everlasting Fire" refers not to the process, but the result.
Really? Ezekiel would be to differ with you. He says God's fire is going to turn him into ashes "and never shalt thou be anymore". Satan will burn up and out of existence. John also would like a word. He says those who love the world will "pass away" but only "they that doeth with will of God abide forever".
To which "hell" do you refer? The "grave" is most certainly eternal for those who will die the Second Death from which there will be no resurrection.......but the "fiery, burning, blazing hell"? It will consume the resurrection bodies of the wicked until there is nothing left, at which time they and it will be among the "former things" which will be "passed away".
What you call "word games" we call "proper use of the English language".
What "external location" of hell are you talking about? There is no "external location" of hell burning at this moment! It will burn in the future! Peter plainly says - and you can read it in that plain English I was just talking about - that God's plan is to "RESERVE the unjust UNTO the day of judgment TO BE punished." - 2 Peter 2:9 KJV
On his wedding anniversary, does a man dress to the nines and take his equally elegant wife to a fancy restaurant and say to the maitre' d, "I want to make a reservation", or does he make the reservation ahead of time before his anniversary?
The Immortal Soul crowd does a good job of never letting the meanings of words or the context in which they are used stop them from insisting God was wrong and the Serpent was right!
This is the only thing I can agree with you because it says nothing about any eternal torment in an eternal hell.
I'm glad you admit it's a parable...now watch the video and you'll finally realize Jesus didn't present this parable to teach us about the afterlife because if He intended it to, He would have created the numerous Scriptural contradictions which erupt from the Immortal Soul/Eternal Torment crowd's interpretation which they choose to ignore.
"Everlasting Fire" refers not to the process, but the result.
Really? Ezekiel would be to differ with you. He says God's fire is going to turn him into ashes "and never shalt thou be anymore". Satan will burn up and out of existence. John also would like a word. He says those who love the world will "pass away" but only "they that doeth with will of God abide forever".
To which "hell" do you refer? The "grave" is most certainly eternal for those who will die the Second Death from which there will be no resurrection.......but the "fiery, burning, blazing hell"? It will consume the resurrection bodies of the wicked until there is nothing left, at which time they and it will be among the "former things" which will be "passed away".
What you call "word games" we call "proper use of the English language".
What "external location" of hell are you talking about? There is no "external location" of hell burning at this moment! It will burn in the future! Peter plainly says - and you can read it in that plain English I was just talking about - that God's plan is to "RESERVE the unjust UNTO the day of judgment TO BE punished." - 2 Peter 2:9 KJV
On his wedding anniversary, does a man dress to the nines and take his equally elegant wife to a fancy restaurant and say to the maitre' d, "I want to make a reservation", or does he make the reservation ahead of time before his anniversary?
The Immortal Soul crowd does a good job of never letting the meanings of words or the context in which they are used stop them from insisting God was wrong and the Serpent was right!
This is the only thing I can agree with you because it says nothing about any eternal torment in an eternal hell.
I'm glad you admit it's a parable...now watch the video and you'll finally realize Jesus didn't present this parable to teach us about the afterlife because if He intended it to, He would have created the numerous Scriptural contradictions which erupt from the Immortal Soul/Eternal Torment crowd's interpretation which they choose to ignore.