Imputed Righteousness???
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“Its addition really skews the meaning because it makes it look like it's saying the true one is Jesus, but it's really saying God, the father is the true one. “
“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”
1 John 5:7 KJV
Jesus is the one who represents the fulness of God the father son and Holy Ghost in one person
“For in him ( singular person ) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.”
Colossians 2:9 KJV
“I and my Father are one.”
John 10:30 KJV
“And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.”
John 20:28-29 KJV
But the reason I quoted this is because it’s a reference to the understanding Jesus gave us in the gospel we’re called to hear and believe and be saved by
“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”
1 John 5:20 KJV
“At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, ( father ) and ye in me, ( son ) and I in you.”( spirit )
John 14:20
“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”
1 John 5:7 KJV
Jesus is the one who represents the fulness of God the father son and Holy Ghost in one person
“For in him ( singular person ) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.”
Colossians 2:9 KJV
“I and my Father are one.”
John 10:30 KJV
“And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.”
John 20:28-29 KJV
But the reason I quoted this is because it’s a reference to the understanding Jesus gave us in the gospel we’re called to hear and believe and be saved by
“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”
1 John 5:20 KJV
“At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, ( father ) and ye in me, ( son ) and I in you.”( spirit )
John 14:20
“Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.”
1 John 3:7 KJV
“If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.”
1 John 2:29 KJV
“Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.”
Acts 10:34-35
1 John 3:7 KJV
“If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.”
1 John 2:29 KJV
“Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.”
Acts 10:34-35
Being drawn does not equate to belief nor does it mean one has been given to Jesus and WILL come
as the Scriptures say... otherwise again we end up with universalism. It is not just Israel who rejects
what is said of God and in the Bible, and yes, we have discussed this before and I asked you how
many times you heard before you believed, but I do not think -at least I certainly do not recall if-
I got an answer from you to that question. Because I was raised in a Christian home and was seeking
for many years and went to church and heard who knows what all for many years but none of that
equated to understanding... in fact I did not understand Who Jesus is until the year of my conversion
at the age of forty nine! Nor could I force myself into understanding, nor could I just decide to believe
what was foolishness to me and what I was as Scripture very plainly states what I was hostile to in
my own mind... and that does not apply just to Israel! It applies to unbelievers in general.
as the Scriptures say... otherwise again we end up with universalism. It is not just Israel who rejects
what is said of God and in the Bible, and yes, we have discussed this before and I asked you how
many times you heard before you believed, but I do not think -at least I certainly do not recall if-
I got an answer from you to that question. Because I was raised in a Christian home and was seeking
for many years and went to church and heard who knows what all for many years but none of that
equated to understanding... in fact I did not understand Who Jesus is until the year of my conversion
at the age of forty nine! Nor could I force myself into understanding, nor could I just decide to believe
what was foolishness to me and what I was as Scripture very plainly states what I was hostile to in
my own mind... and that does not apply just to Israel! It applies to unbelievers in general.
“Being drawn does not equate to belief nor does it mean one has been given to Jesus and WILL come “
all creation was given to Jesus sis. but I agree it doesn’t mean all creation is going to believe the gospel and be saved
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16 KJV
Yea many will reject the gospel sis but not because god didn’t allow them to hear it or make them able to believe it . Because they won’t want what they hesr
all creation was given to Jesus sis. but I agree it doesn’t mean all creation is going to believe the gospel and be saved
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16 KJV
Yea many will reject the gospel sis but not because god didn’t allow them to hear it or make them able to believe it . Because they won’t want what they hesr
right all belong to him some will believe the gospel and be saved others won’t . But not because God only makes some able and others he doesn’t make them able
“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”
1 Timothy 2:3-4 KJV
If man had no choice or role n this then it would mean universalism but we do that’s why some live and some don’t some believe the gospel and some reject it.
All are drawn by the message of the gospel it’s why it needs to be preached . some however won’t respond to it on thier own is my point . Not because god enabled one man and not them but because they will not want what he’s offering because it calls them to repent or perish
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
2 Peter 3:9 KJV
It would only lead to universalism of someone thought “ men have no choice or role in it “ we do we have to choose life or death….that’s what makes the difference not that one has secretly been made able to hear God and another can’t but because one heers and responds and likes what he’s hearing another doesn’t like it so they move on to things they do like
“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”
1 Timothy 2:3-4 KJV
If man had no choice or role n this then it would mean universalism but we do that’s why some live and some don’t some believe the gospel and some reject it.
All are drawn by the message of the gospel it’s why it needs to be preached . some however won’t respond to it on thier own is my point . Not because god enabled one man and not them but because they will not want what he’s offering because it calls them to repent or perish
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
2 Peter 3:9 KJV
It would only lead to universalism of someone thought “ men have no choice or role in it “ we do we have to choose life or death….that’s what makes the difference not that one has secretly been made able to hear God and another can’t but because one heers and responds and likes what he’s hearing another doesn’t like it so they move on to things they do like
All are drawn by the gospel? No, the world is repulsed by the gospel message which is reviled, ridiculed, and heard as foolishness. And nobody responds on their own. The Holy Spirit of God convicts, and repentance, I wonder how do you define repentance? Stop sinning? That is not repentance. Repentance is agreeing with God about your condition before Him, which He reveals to you. It is a complete change of orientation toward God, from rebellion and defiance to acceptance and submission, and the stony heart needs to be replaced with a heart of flesh before that can happen because man is inherently hostile toward God, despite what so many say to the contrary, and that is actually what the Bible teaches, too. God sets us free so we can co-operate with Him. If you think you can just do that on your own while you are captive to the will of the devil, with no help from Him, you have essentially put yourself on a par, as a natural man, with Jesus Christ, Who Himself had to lay His human will aside to do the will of God, and so struggled with it that He sweated blood.
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Certainly we are blessed with being new creatures in Christ, with the new man enjoying true righteousness and holiness by way being joined to the Lord. But God caused this to happen to ungodly people on the basis of their faith, not on the basis of their righteousness. We agree on that, right?
δικαιόωa; δικαίωσιςa, εως f; δικαιοσύνηb, ης f: to cause someone to be in a proper or right relation with someone else—‘to put right with, to cause to be in a right relationship with.’ [Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). In Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition., Vol. 1, p. 451). United Bible Societies.]
δικαιόωa; δικαίωσιςa, εως f; δικαιοσύνηb, ης f: to cause someone to be in a proper or right relation with someone else—‘to put right with, to cause to be in a right relationship with.’ [Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). In Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition., Vol. 1, p. 451). United Bible Societies.]
Yes I agree.
Do me a favor and the next time you quote from Louw Nida include the numerical reference number, eg 88.13 so I can check it out. And btw I don't necessarily agree with his interpretations. For example under the entry I listed he says righteousness is "doing what God requires’". That's a much too general definition. God requires righteousness, but that doesn't define what righteousness is, which is equity/justice
Do me a favor and the next time you quote from Louw Nida include the numerical reference number, eg 88.13 so I can check it out. And btw I don't necessarily agree with his interpretations. For example under the entry I listed he says righteousness is "doing what God requires’". That's a much too general definition. God requires righteousness, but that doesn't define what righteousness is, which is equity/justice
“All are drawn by the gospel?”
Just going by what Jesus said sis
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.”
John 12:32-33 KJV
The problem isn’t what God didn’t do for anyone he’s given his only son for everyone’s sin and offered forgivness. That’s what draws everyone to Jesus .
again the problem isn’t that they can’t hear and see ect it’s this
“And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.”
John 3:19-21 KJV
If a person loves tbier sinful life more than what Jesus is offering they’ll never approach him in tbe light because it causes us to recognize our sin and repent
“If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
1 John 1:6-10 KJV
sis sadly the truth is some folks already have a heart full of other things and no too for Jesus “ at the inn” if we live tbe world too much we won’t respond to Jesus calling us to come out of it and I to his kingdom
This isn’t true of everyone some people hear the gospel and respond believing and in kind and with thanks others reject it as foolishness others like it until they realize they need to let go of thier sin then they don’t want it anymore the parable of four souls is a good way to grasp it
“Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.”
Luke 8:12-15 KJV
It’s how the person responds that matters and God isn’t the one doing that part his part is the gospel.
everyone is called by the gospel but many won’t respond the parable of the wedding invitation is a good way to grasp it the guests are all invited multiple times , reminded and they choose not to attend the wedding . Then others are invited and take thier place because they didn’t want to come some because of thier worldly affairs and possessions others mocked it but they had tbier reasons for rejecting the invite ot was never that they weren’t capable of attending they had other plans and chose the other in place of the wedding
Just going by what Jesus said sis
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.”
John 12:32-33 KJV
The problem isn’t what God didn’t do for anyone he’s given his only son for everyone’s sin and offered forgivness. That’s what draws everyone to Jesus .
again the problem isn’t that they can’t hear and see ect it’s this
“And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.”
John 3:19-21 KJV
If a person loves tbier sinful life more than what Jesus is offering they’ll never approach him in tbe light because it causes us to recognize our sin and repent
“If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
1 John 1:6-10 KJV
sis sadly the truth is some folks already have a heart full of other things and no too for Jesus “ at the inn” if we live tbe world too much we won’t respond to Jesus calling us to come out of it and I to his kingdom
This isn’t true of everyone some people hear the gospel and respond believing and in kind and with thanks others reject it as foolishness others like it until they realize they need to let go of thier sin then they don’t want it anymore the parable of four souls is a good way to grasp it
“Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.”
Luke 8:12-15 KJV
It’s how the person responds that matters and God isn’t the one doing that part his part is the gospel.
everyone is called by the gospel but many won’t respond the parable of the wedding invitation is a good way to grasp it the guests are all invited multiple times , reminded and they choose not to attend the wedding . Then others are invited and take thier place because they didn’t want to come some because of thier worldly affairs and possessions others mocked it but they had tbier reasons for rejecting the invite ot was never that they weren’t capable of attending they had other plans and chose the other in place of the wedding
Well yes and here we go again round and round we go, because being drawn is not the same as being given or even coming to believe ... and He said that to signify what type of death He would die. I have mentioned the soils many many times in these discussions because the soil of the heart - the heart which is the seat of man and where one believes- is stony and needs to be changed before the seed of God's Word can take root and produce the desired fruit. Anyways I'm at work today and I hope you're having a good one!
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Sure, no problem. The one above was 34.46.
Louw-Nida has its problems as does every other work, but it is generally very good. And their primary definition is very close in concept to the definition I provided earlier from the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, repeated here for ease of reference...
So I do not find fault with Louw-Nida's definition. Perhaps the reason it is a bit distant from Greek and Helenistic ethics is explained by the final sentence in TDNT's definition (i.e., that in NT usage, "the basic relationship to God is always in view" and " it is related to the event of revelation").
All the best to you my friend as we sharpen our swords together
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Louw-Nida has its problems as does every other work, but it is generally very good. And their primary definition is very close in concept to the definition I provided earlier from the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, repeated here for ease of reference...
If we ignore these passages, and postpone for the moment our consideration of the distinctive Pauline formula δικαιοσύνη θεοῦ, we may first maintain that δικαιοσύνη is almost always used in the NT for the right conduct of man which follows the will of God and is pleasing to Him, for rectitude of life before God, for uprightness before His judgment. The fact that the basic relationship to God is always in view, and that it is related to the event of revelation, distinguishes this usage from Greek and Hellenistic ethics and links it firmly with the OT.
Schrenk, G. (1964–). δίκη, δίκαιος, δικαιοσύνη, δικαιόω, δικαίωμα, δικαίωσις, δικαιοκρισία. In G. Kittel, G. W. Bromiley, & G. Friedrich (Eds.), Theological dictionary of the New Testament (electronic ed., Vol. 2, p. 198). Eerdmans.
So I do not find fault with Louw-Nida's definition. Perhaps the reason it is a bit distant from Greek and Helenistic ethics is explained by the final sentence in TDNT's definition (i.e., that in NT usage, "the basic relationship to God is always in view" and " it is related to the event of revelation").
All the best to you my friend as we sharpen our swords together
.I do because it's not really a definition at all. Saying the definition of righteousness is "doing what God requires" is like saying the definition of electricity is "what an electric car requires." Both statements are true, but neither provide any insight into what the terms actually mean. It's more a commentary than definitive explanation