If Women Can't Have Authority Over Men in the Church, Why Are They Expected to Teach in School?

[Dino246]

Your example with canadians doesnt makes sense. It would be the native americans who were indigenous and have authority over how the land is managed. Because they were there first and knew all about it.
Columbus didnt 'discover' america there were people ALREADY living there.

Ummm... you completely missed the point. It was an illustration, not a statement of historical accuracy.

The illustration was intended to convey the absence of logical connection between temporal priority (who came first) and hierarchical priority (who is, or should be, in charge).

If the complementarians were to be consistent, they would give animals authority over humans, because they were created before we were, and the plants would have authority over the animals, for they were created even earlier.

 

[Lanolin]

Ummm... you completely missed the point. It was an illustration, not a statement of historical accuracy.

The illustration was intended to convey the absence of logical connection between temporal priority (who came first) and hierarchical priority (who is, or should be, in charge).

If the complementarians were to be consistent, they would give animals authority over humans, because they were created before we were, and the plants would have authority over the animals, for they were created even earlier.

Actually there are four beasts are around the throne of God. Only the lamb was worthy though.

Yes plants take precedence as without them, we would die. They give us oxygen.

 

[Lanolin]

In heaven, there is a tree of life, and a fountain of crystal clear water flowing from the throne of God.
You cant say these two creations are not important.

 

[Lanolin]

Dino you miss several points which I have addressed. So dont say I am missing yours.

I think sometimes you like to insist you are right and assume you are always right. But its not the case, we just have different interpreations of scripture.

 

[Dino246]

Well how do you read Pauls admonishishing (sp) then can you please explain it then. Clearly. If you did it before and I missed it sorry. But can you explain again what he meant by the 'for adam was first formed' bit.
Because it just makes zero sense. Was he talkig about a particular woman who was interrupting him or all women. Its not clear. Or was he just being chauvinistic, God forbid.

Paraphrasing from several sources...

Timothy was in Ephesus, where the cult of Diana was based. In that cult, women were in charge, and were taught that Eve was created first and did not sin. Part of their practice included inviting their students to "special sessions" where "secret knowledge" (gnosis) was shared. As some of these women came to Christ, they brought with them their previous beliefs and practices. Paul wouldn't allow someone straight out of cult to teach in the church or to have authority (sexual influence) over men. Instead, like the male newcomers to Christ, they were to learn in quietness and submission. Verses 13 and 14 directly contradict this false teaching, as does most of the chapter.

 

[Dino246]

Dino you miss several points which I have addressed. So dont say I am missing yours.

I think sometimes you like to insist you are right and assume you are always right. But its not the case, we just have different interpreations of scripture.

Patience, Grasshopper. You made several posts; I'll get to them.

 

[Dino246]

In heaven, there is a tree of life, and a fountain of crystal clear water flowing from the throne of God.
You cant say these two creations are not important.

I don't know if you're addressing me. If you are...

I haven't said anything about "these two creations" so I don't know why you would imply that I "can't say...".

 

[Dino246]

There is some scriputral support for men abidicating their position. Deborah and huldah. Called to positions of influence because men had failed.
King ahab was taken in by Jezebel and let her rule the roost. King solomons heart was turned BY his wives.
Women have influence. Samson and Delilah. And of course...adam and Eve...adam failed to protect Eve. Battle of sexes happened ever since.

Deborah is not a supporting example. She was judging before Barak is identified. Jael supports your point; she got the honour of killing Sisera because Barak would not go up without Deborah. That is the only situation I can think of, and one example hardly makes a principle. Further, Barak is named in Hebrews 11; Jael isn't.

Huldah doesn't even remotely support your point. Nothing in the text indicates that she was raised to prominence because of the abdication or failure of a man.

Jezebel and Ahab were both steeped in sin. She happened to think of a conniving way for Ahab to obtain land he wanted. That isn't representative of all women, nor of women rising to prominence because of the failure of men.

Samson was foolish. Delilah wasn't made any sort of a leader by his failure.

Your ammunition case appears to be rather empty.

Am justs giving example of priests but actually this happens in non catholic churches too. Especially youth groups. And also schools principals this happens a lot. You need a police criminal check to work with children now. In the school I work in, there are only 3 male teachers out of 20 or so. Bible in schools teachers were all female. Why the gender imbalance?

And this was like that when I was in primary school, and in high school there were male teachers that some students were wary of, why because they were being innapropriate with the female students. It was kind of hushed up, but it happened.

These situations are deeply unfortunate, but they have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

 

[Dino246]

Actually there are four beasts are around the throne of God. Only the lamb was worthy though.

Yes plants take precedence as without them, we would die. They give us oxygen.

And we give them carbon dioxide. They have no authority over us in the sense that you advocate for men over women.

Again, with the four beasts, I have no idea what you're talking about. I don't see any relevance to the topic of the thread.

 

[Lanolin]

Paraphrasing from several sources...

Timothy was in Ephesus, where the cult of Diana was based. In that cult, women were in charge, and were taught that Eve was created first and did not sin. Part of their practice included inviting their students to "special sessions" where "secret knowledge" (gnosis) was shared. As some of these women came to Christ, they brought with them their previous beliefs and practices. Paul wouldn't allow someone straight out of cult to teach in the church or to have authority (sexual influence) over men. Instead, like the male newcomers to Christ, they were to learn in quietness and submission. Verses 13 and 14 directly contradict this false teaching, as does most of the chapter.

Oh ok thank you.

Yes I recall in ephesus there was a riot about diana. Its not clear in letter to Timothy though the context. I did think the wording of the passage was a bit strange. Because it talked about a woman, then women, and it wasnt clear if he meant just one or women in general.

However I dont understand what you write authority as meaning sexual influence. PAul didnt seem to be referring to anything sexual. He just wanted women to be quiet. Authority isnt sexual!!

 

[Lanolin]

And we give them carbon dioxide. They have no authority over us in the sense that you advocate for men over women.

Again, with the four beasts, I have no idea what you're talking about. I don't see any relevance to the topic of the thread.

The point is only the lamb is worthy.
Recall in geneisis, when adam and eve sinned, God made clothes for them out of skins. A lamb had to be sacrificed so they could be clothed. Abel was a keeper of sheep. The inference is that, humans cant live without animals, and the lamb gave its life for us.

So we must treat them with care.

 

[Lanolin]

Deborah is not a supporting example. She was judging before Barak is identified. Jael supports your point; she got the honour of killing Sisera because Barak would not go up without Deborah. That is the only situation I can think of, and one example hardly makes a principle. Further, Barak is named in Hebrews 11; Jael isn't.

Huldah doesn't even remotely support your point. Nothing in the text indicates that she was raised to prominence because of the abdication or failure of a man.

Jezebel and Ahab were both steeped in sin. She happened to think of a conniving way for Ahab to obtain land he wanted. That isn't representative of all women, nor of women rising to prominence because of the failure of men.

Samson was foolish. Delilah wasn't made any sort of a leader by his failure.

Your ammunition case appears to be rather empty.



These situations are deeply unfortunate, but they have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

I dont have ammunition stop trying to make out like im against you. I am just stating what I think and learn from the Bible. Ok?

 

[Lanolin]

Huldah in 2 kings 22reads a passage the men go to her because all who have gone before have disobeyed God.

 

[Lanolin]

Another is abigail when Nabal failed to provide for David. He was stingy so .abigail actually went and did the right thing.

 

[Lanolin]

Rahab also hid the spies in Jericho, no man did. And her household was saved.

 

[Lanolin]

How about book of Ruth. Naomis huband dies and her two sons die. Shes left all alone. Orpah turns away but ruth stays with her. Naomi is without anyone but is Ruth who turns out to be part of her salvation when her goodness attracts Boaz. RUth does a risky thing at Naomis behest by uncovering Boaz feet.

Yet if she didnt take that risk, what would have happened.
3 men had failed Naomi..her husband, her two sons. Yet it was through Ruth that she was able to find Boaz to redeem her and to provide.

 

[Dino246]

Oh ok thank you.

Yes I recall in ephesus there was a riot about diana. Its not clear in letter to Timothy though the context. I did think the wording of the passage was a bit strange. Because it talked about a woman, then women, and it wasnt clear if he meant just one or women in general.

However I dont understand what you write authority as meaning sexual influence. PAul didnt seem to be referring to anything sexual. He just wanted women to be quiet. Authority isnt sexual!!

Agreed; normal authority isn't sexual. What I meant was that part of the cultic teachings involved sexual influence. That kind of influence would be inappropriate. I have come across evidence (I don't recall where) suggesting that Paul used such an obscure term (authentein) to mean inappropriate sexual influence. He wouldn't allow "such a women" to teach or have "that kind of influence" over a man. The nuances are essentially lost to us. I wouldn't die on that hill, but such an interpretation does make sense in the context. The normal Greek word for authority is not used in that passage. I think we all tend to get the KJV's "usurp authority" stuck in our heads and it hinders us from considering other meanings.

 

[Dino246]

The point is only the lamb is worthy.
Recall in geneisis, when adam and eve sinned, God made clothes for them out of skins. A lamb had to be sacrificed so they could be clothed. Abel was a keeper of sheep. The inference is that, humans cant live without animals, and the lamb gave its life for us.

So we must treat them with care.

Okay... I understand now what you're getting at.

 

[Dino246]

I dont have ammunition stop trying to make out like im against you. I am just stating what I think and learn from the Bible. Ok?

Once again you misinterpreted my words. I wasn't implying that this was a "me versus you" thing. It was a metaphor... most of your examples simply didn't support your point.

 

[Dino246]

Huldah in 2 kings 22reads a passage the men go to her because all who have gone before have disobeyed God.

Agreed, but that doesn't support the idea that a woman was raised to prominence because of the failure of men.

Another is abigail when Nabal failed to provide for David. He was stingy so .abigail actually went and did the right thing.

Abigail's husband, by her own words, was a fool. Yes, she did the right thing. Was she made a leader or given authority as a result? No.

Rahab also hid the spies in Jericho, no man did. And her household was saved.

As with Huldah, there is no evidence in Scripture that Rahab acted in the absence of men doing the right thing. She simply did the right thing.

How about book of Ruth. Naomis huband dies and her two sons die. Shes left all alone. Orpah turns away but ruth stays with her. Naomi is without anyone but is Ruth who turns out to be part of her salvation when her goodness attracts Boaz. RUth does a risky thing at Naomis behest by uncovering Boaz feet.

Yet if she didnt take that risk, what would have happened.

So... perhaps I'm wrong, but with these examples, you seem to be implying that if a woman does anything noteworthy, it is because some man has failed to step up. Sorry, I'm not buying that, because it is inherently sexist. Women are just as capable of initiative and independent thought as men.

3 men had failed Naomi..her husband, her two sons. Yet it was through Ruth that she was able to find Boaz to redeem her and to provide.

I disagree with your reasoning here: Elimelech, Mahlon, and Chilion didn't "fail" Naomi; they died. Scripture simply doesn't record any wrongdoing on their part either as reason for their deaths or for having died and leaving Naomi helpless.