IF the Spirit Dwells In You...

[Wansvic]

I guess it stems from the questions one Pentecostal would ask another when invited to worship Holiness or Oneness or which of the other's but Post 33 was why I ask.

Many are coming to the realization that the apostles administered water baptism in the name of Jesus. The Apostle Paul re-baptized those who had been baptized by John the Baptist. The account reveals the importance of being water baptized in the name of Jesus. (Acts 19:1-7) This happened over 20 years after Peter first commanded everyone to be water baptized that way on the Day of Pentecost. (Acts 2:38)

 

[Webers.Home]

.
I was informed by a Charismatic friend that he prayed in a tongue because
he couldn't express his deepest feelings any other way. Mind you this was an
American adult of almost fifty years old; educated in America and spoke,
wrote, and read English-- his native language --his entire life.

So I asked him how it is that his command of English was so poor that he
could only express his thoughts in a language that not even he himself could
either identify or understand?

● 1Cor 14:13-15 . . If I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is
unfruitful. So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray
with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind.

In other words: there are Christians out and about blabbering incoherently
because they choose to, not because they have to. With just a simple act of
their own will they could easily switch to speaking with real words.

Why on earth would a grown-up prefer incoherent blabbering? Isn't that the
way small children communicate? Well, I can excuse small children because
they're uneducated. But shouldn't supposed educated adults be just a bit
more mature with their language and grammar than small children?

● 1Cor 14:20 . . Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be
infants, but in your thinking be adults.

The true gift of tongues is very handy for communicating with foreigners.
But in our day and age, Charismatics typically don't communicate with
anybody, either foreign or domestic . As a result, Charismatics are looked
upon with the same disdain as the kooks that hurl themselves on the floor,
and/or faint, scream, writhe, shout, and dance with rattlesnakes.

Well; not too many sensible people care to accommodate kooks, so if you're
serious about influencing people for Christ, I highly recommend sticking to
an intelligible language. Here in my country, English is a good choice
because most people can understand it without requiring the services of a
translator.

And for heaven's sake, please do not allow yourself to be drawn into
participating in a tongues meeting.

● 1Cor 14:23 . . So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks
in tongues, and some who do not understand, or some unbelievers come in,
will they not say that you are out of your mind?
_

 

[Squigglylines]

Many are coming to the realization that the apostles administered water baptism in the name of Jesus. The Apostle Paul re-baptized those who had been baptized by John the Baptist. The account reveals the importance of being water baptized in the name of Jesus. (Acts 19:1-7) This happened over 20 years after Peter first commanded everyone to be water baptized that way on the Day of Pentecost. (Acts 2:38)

I've worshiped among Pentecostal's more than forty years now and am well aware of that.

 

[Webers.Home]

.
● Eph 4:4-5 . .There is one baptism

Let's say, hypothetically, that a number of miners are trapped underground
by a cave-in and one of them just so happened to bring a Bible to work with
him that day; so began reading aloud and came to the place where it says:

"He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all
creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does
not believe will be condemned." (Mark 16:15-17)

Well; one of the other miners, realizing the men's predicament could every
easily result in all their deaths, asked the Bible reader what was going to
happen to those in the group who believed but had no way to be baptized
seeing as how they were underground with no source of water at hand.
_

 

[posthuman]

Notice Paul stated that no man understands the tongue/language spoken when man's spirit converses with God:

1 Cor 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

1 Cor 14:14-15
For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

this doesn't mean that when a person's spirit speaks with God it is unknowable, and it doesn't mean that muttering nonsense syllables is necessarily by the Spirit of God.

it means what it says, that if a person speaks in a tongue no one understands, only God comprehends it.

and please note that Paul says this is an undesirable thing that benefits no one, and such a person should keep silent.

the spiritual gifts are meant to benefit each other.

speaking nonsense or otherwise indecipherable 'language' does nothing for those that hear it but cause confusion, and does nothing for the understanding of the person who speaks it, either.

 

[Magenta]

But if we hope for what we do not yet see, we wait for it patiently. In the same way, the Spirit
helps us in our weakness. For we do not know how we ought to pray, but the Spirit Himself
intercedes for us with groans too deep for words. And He who searches our hearts knows the
mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
Romans 8:25-27

 

[SomeDisciple]

Notice Paul stated that no man understands the tongue/language spoken when man's spirit converses with God:

1 Cor 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

"No one/no man" (from the same greek) is subject to context.

[Matthew 22:46]
And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.
...Taking the phrase "no man" to mean "nobody in the whole world" breaks the scriptures; because, obviously not every one in the world stopped questioning Jesus. It was a specific group of people present. No one (of those present questioning him at the time) dared question him anymore.

Likewise, in Corinthians; it is referring to people present in a group. A "unknown tongue" is not an "unknowable tongue", it is only "unknown" so long as the people present do not know it- just like "mysteries" are not something unknowable.

Throughout the book of Acts, they not speaking in some unknowable tongue, or even an "unknown" tongue. People understood them, and were amazed by that. THAT was a sign that they were filled with the Holy Ghost.

Someone speaking in an unknown tongue is not a sign they are filled with the Holy Ghost. It is a sign that the person is a foreigner to you.

 

[Wansvic]

I've worshiped among Pentecostal's more than forty years now and am well aware of that.

I meant no offence. My comment was not directed at you specifically. You mentioned post 33 and I assumed you were referencing that topic.

 

[SomeDisciple]

In the last days, God says,
I will pour out My Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy....

That is what Peter said was happening in Acts 2.

On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

And in Acts 19, you can also see that they prophesied when they received the Holy Ghost.

In acts 11; Peter says that the Holy Spirit fell on the gentiles just as it did the group in Acts 2.

and if we want to be like Pentacostals, we can make stuff up and say "Oh, Simon must have saw them PROPHECY!!" in acts 8.

sooo.... based on these 4 witnesses from scripture- if you don't prophecy, then you don't have the holy spirit and are not saved. (Not really what I'm saying. Obviously).

 

[Wansvic]

this doesn't mean that when a person's spirit speaks with God it is unknowable, and it doesn't mean that muttering nonsense syllables is necessarily by the Spirit of God.

it means what it says, that if a person speaks in a tongue no one understands, only God comprehends it.

and please note that Paul says this is an undesirable thing that benefits no one, and such a person should keep silent.

the spiritual gifts are meant to benefit each other.

speaking nonsense or otherwise indecipherable 'language' does nothing for those that hear it but cause confusion, and does nothing for the understanding of the person who speaks it, either.

Paul did not say speaking in tongues is undesirable. Nor did he say it benefits no one. He wished people spoke in tongues as much as he did; however, during a church service tongues should be limited if no one is gifted with interpretation.

See Paul's own words:
I thank God I speak in tongues MORE than you all. (1 Cor. 14:18)

For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. 1 Cor. 14:2

He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself...(verse 4)

I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. (verse 5)

For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. (verses 14 and 15)

I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. (verses 18 and 19)

 

[Wansvic]

"No one/no man" (from the same greek) is subject to context.

[Matthew 22:46]
And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.
...Taking the phrase "no man" to mean "nobody in the whole world" breaks the scriptures; because, obviously not every one in the world stopped questioning Jesus. It was a specific group of people present. No one (of those present questioning him at the time) dared question him anymore.

Likewise, in Corinthians; it is referring to people present in a group. A "unknown tongue" is not an "unknowable tongue", it is only "unknown" so long as the people present do not know it- just like "mysteries" are not something unknowable.

Throughout the book of Acts, they not speaking in some unknowable tongue, or even an "unknown" tongue. People understood them, and were amazed by that. THAT was a sign that they were filled with the Holy Ghost.

Someone speaking in an unknown tongue is not a sign they are filled with the Holy Ghost. It is a sign that the person is a foreigner to you.

Can't help myself. Are you related to Kamala Harris? lol

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

Thank you for the clarification.

I am in agreement that Spiritual gifts have not been eliminated. Where I believe we differ is concerning when people actually receive the promised gift of the Holy Ghost.

What I see from scripture is that tongues initially flow when the Holy Ghost takes up residence in the body. (Acts 2:4, 10:45-46, 19:6, and Acts 8:17-18 where tongues are implied) It is the sign that indicates a person has received the promised GIFT; the Holy Ghost. Whereas the Spiritual gift of tongues that requires one such as yourself to interpret are gifts that not all are used to operate in.


Lastly, notice what's recorded in Luke. AFTER Jesus ascended he through the Holy Ghost gave commandments to the apostles. (Acts 1:1-2) It was after Peter was indwelt by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost that he presented Jesus commandments relative to the NT rebirth: WHAT MUST WE DO? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. The promise is for all. (Acts 2:2-42)

 

[SomeDisciple]

Can't help myself. Are you related to Kamala Harris? lol

In the broadest sense; but if I ever found out that lizard men were a thing; then I think I'd say no.

 

[Squigglylines]

I meant no offence. My comment was not directed at you specifically. You mentioned post 33 and I assumed you were referencing that topic.

Not offended at all. I noticed how you described being baptized and then re-baptized and there's so many different explanations of it today among the Pentecostal's I wondered if you were Oneness,Holiness or which is all.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

What I see from scripture is that tongues initially flow when the Holy Ghost takes up residence in the body.

That's NOT, however what the Bible says. Jesus instructions to the disciples (Who already were infilled by the Holy SPirit in John 20:22) to wait for the "ENDUEMENT" (clothing) with power. in acts 2 the spirit came UPON (not in) the folks in the upper room.

There seems to be a great RESISTENCE to what the Bible says. John 20:22 (confirmed in Luke 24:45) = The Holy Spirit INDWELLING THE DISCIPLES, and opening their understanding. Acts 2 = The Holy Spirit UPON the disciples (as also happened thoughout the OLD Testament) giving them POWER IN MINISTRY.

 

[wattie]

The believers at Pentecost were told they shall receive the Holy Ghost. Not that the experience occurred when they believed Jesus had risen. (Acts 2:36-42)
And, at Pentecost the individuals were NOT externally clothed; "And they were ALL FILLED with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." (Acts 2:4) Peter also stated that the Gentiles had received the Holy Ghost when they heard them speak in tongues. (Acts 10:43-48. 11:15)

Filling of the Holy Spirit is not the same as being indwelt.

Read the book of John and compare with Acts

 

[SomeDisciple]

Jn20 is Jesus telling them what to do; and Lk24 is Jesus teaching them. Neither say that the disciples were filled with or received, or baptized in the Holy Spirit.

When an open vessel is submersed in something, it is also filled with that in which it is immersed. This is very easy to understand.

https://videos.pond5.com/glass-immersed-water-water-fills-footage-095354512_main_xxl.mp4

 

[SomeDisciple]

The "enduement" is one in the same as the baptism. Look at the lexicon for the greek: the greeks "sank into" their clothes.... it's a type of immersion.

 

[Webers.Home]

.
It's likely true that there are at least as many Christians proud of their
baptism as there are Jews proud of their circumcision.
_

 

[Wansvic]

@Bob-Carabbio Earlier I shared scriptural details that seem to oppose the idea the apostles experienced being filled with the Holy Ghost at that moment. It is possible Jesus was referencing the future event that took place at Pentecost.