I would like some perspectives on Revelation.

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cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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Do you believe Revelation is literal, physical, spiritual, something in between, or just another completely different perspective! I would love to see your thoughts and your logic behind them.
Literal. But encoded in various forms of OT symbols and OT types, with which the illustrious mosaic is made ebullient.

Rev 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified G4591 it by his angel unto his servant John:
 

MrE

Salty Crew
Jan 26, 2023
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Literal. But encoded in various forms of OT symbols and OT types, with which the illustrious mosaic is made ebullient.

Rev 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified G4591 it by his angel unto his servant John:
Delicious word salad. -and I kind of agree with that, except rather than designating it some kind of OT code, I would just say that it relies upon employing 'spiritual' concepts and premises that the writer incorporates for explanation purposes. That is, he often uses throw-backs (to those OT references) for the purposes of helping us to understand what he is seeing and saying.
 

Cameron143

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Part of it very much is about them. A large part.
It's not. The book of Revelation brings to an end the old covenant. God promised sanctions upon Israel in Deuteronomy for failing to keep the terms of the old covenant. Revelation is the revealing of those sanctions that would soon come upon Israel.
 

ewq1938

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Oct 18, 2018
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Can you broadly outline the book of Revelation?

A war is coming where the enemy (satan and his people) will overcome and kill the saints and will rule the entire world for years. There will be beasts and kings and a worshipped image, worshipping of satan, and a mark on the unsaved. It will be the worst period of Christian persecution that has ever taken place. It will end when Christ returns.

You: The book of Revelation isn't about Satan and His people.

Me: Part of it very much is about them. A large part.
 

Cameron143

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A war is coming where the enemy (satan and his people) will overcome and kill the saints and will rule the entire world for years. There will be beasts and kings and a worshipped image, worshipping of satan, and a mark on the unsaved. It will be the worst period of Christian persecution that has ever taken place. It will end when Christ returns.

You: The book of Revelation isn't about Satan and His people.

Me: Part of it very much is about them. A large part.
Outline of Revelation:
Preamble: vision of the Son of Man...1
Historical Prologue: the 7 letters...2-3
Ethical Stipulations: the 7 seals...4-7
Sanctions: the 7 trumpets...8-14
Succession arrangements: the 7 chalices...15-22

Outline of Deuteronomy
Preamble...1:1-5
Historical Prologue...1:6-4:49
Ethical Stipulations...5:1-26:19
Sanctions: 27:1-30:20
Succession Arrangements: 31:1-34:12

You will also find the same outline in Hosea:
Preamble...1
Historical Prologue...2-3
Ethical Stipulations...4-7
Sanctions...8-9
Succession Arrangements...10-14

Deuteronomy is the beginning of the old covenant between God and Israel. Revelation is the end of that covenant, complete with the sanctions upon Israel for failure to keep the stipulations specified in the covenant.
 
Jul 17, 2021
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Church did not replace Israel
I'm sure you are being quite accurate from a dispensationalist view point, but I prefer to believe Christ and the Bible's definitions of "church" and "Israel".

Your understandings of "Church and Israel" has been developed by the Rome Catholic Church, these past 500+ years (200 years, from JN Darby) to mislead the Christians who came out of the RCC and became Protestants, who the RCC regards as heretic and burned 10s of MILLIONS of us. The RCC, developed these interpretations of Church & Israel to confuse & sidetrack, Christ believers, down the road of apostasy, called "dispensationalism" They've done an excellent job, as the vast majority of professed Protestants are now apostate. As so many ecumenical churches like to say ... they've gone back to the "Mother Church" & that "Luther's protest is over".

Which is why I'm an Adventist, being the Remnant Church, of Rev 12 & 14, still pointing out the Anti-Christ and her "doctrines of devils" as ALL the past Protestant Reformers did. ~ ~ ~ "Here i stand, I can do no other." ~~ Martin Luther

1 Timothy 4, the Spirit warns that in the latter times, some will depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. As far back as Genesis 3, the serpent's questioning of God's Commandments to Eve is seen as an early example of the "doctrine of demons", as it leads people away from God's Truth, = Jesus.

Jesus, told Israel in Matthew 23, that " Behold, your house is left to you desolate" referring to the impending judgement due to it's rejection of God's messengers and ultimately, Jesus himself as the Messiah. Then in John 19, at Jesus trial, in front of Pilate, the Jewish high priest, said" We have no king, but Caesar".

Then in Acts 7, there is the long speech to the Sanhedrin, where Steven presents a comprehensive overview of Israel's history, emphasizing God's repeated acts of Grace and Israel's persistent rejection of God's messengers, including Jesus. This speech was God's final appeal for Israel to recognize and accept Jesus as the Messiah. Which Israel rejected with the killed of Steven.

I ask YOU ... Do you see any scriptural alluding to the Jews getting a "third change" AS A NATION or people, being "the chosen people" the church, continuing on as such? The Jews by rejecting the Messiah, became as Gentiles and ONLY become God's chosen people, "spiritual Israel" again, by accepting Christ Jesus as our Lord & Savior, believing EVERYTHING He says. ( Not just the "savior" parts, as dispensationalist like to believe, ONLY)

AI response follows; ( uninspired AI, gets it :)

"literal Israel was God’s chosen nation, tasked with representing His truth to the world. However, with Christ’s ministry and the new covenant He established, the promises to Israel were extended to spiritual Israel—those who accept Christ by faith, regardless of their ethnic background. This spiritual Israel is now the church of Christ, which is His body and continues the mission of God’s people to spread the gospel throughout the world."

The privileges and responsibilities once given to literal Israel in the Old Testament have been transferred to spiritual Israel—those who accept Christ and keep God’s commandments.

Romans 2:28–29 – “For he is not a Jew which is one outwardly... but he is a Jew which is one inwardly.”
Galatians 3:7 – “Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.”

The church—composed of both Jews and Gentiles who accept Jesus—is now spiritual Israel.
Galatians 6:16 – “And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.”

Revelation 14:12 – “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.”
1 Peter 2:9–10 – “But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood... which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God.”

Old Testament Israel > Spiritual Israel (New Testament)

Physical descendants of Abraham > Believers in Christ (Rom. 9:6–8)

Defined by circumcision > Defined by heart transformation (Rom. 2:29)

Kept ceremonial law > Keep moral law through grace (Rev. 14:12)

God's nation > God's church—Jews and Gentiles in Christ
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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Church did not replace Israel
Furthermore the Church is not Israel. Never has been never will be.

Only Israel is Israel, the sons of Jacob. And their seed.
Period.
 
Jul 17, 2021
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A pretty arrogant assertion you make here. I made it to page 8 before I rejected your "rightly divided" opinion. I disagree 100% with what you call "right". Do you understand your view is less that 100 years old? Is that not any kind of red flag? You believe the newest fad in regard to this subject, and when dissected in truth, it is the most scripture chopping, word redefining, eisegesis reliant, guru dependant, belief in modern Christianity. I wish people could put down their charts, timelines, and guru teachers to take a step back, read scripture and see how much you have to ADD to His word to get it to say that Revelation is future to us. It blew my mind when my eyes were opened to it and still does to this day.

This belief could have only come before we had access to so much information about the Bible. I don't think this belief would ever make it off the ground today if it was just being put forth. It is by far the most "needs stuff added to scripture", belief I've ever seen true believers accept. I would even say that without bringing this "belief" TO the text, no one would ever just grab a bible, read, and come to this conclusion on their own. It's just not there in my opinion anyway.
I Agree with your assessment 100% concerning the nature of this, "Rightly Dividing" theology, which I believe is just one of many "dispensational" means for corrupting Truth. I understand it goes back to John N. Darby's and the Plymouth Brethren believers of the mid 1800s, which was yet another reiteration of the Catholic's beliefs and traditions, just repackaged in a way that "protestants" might more easy swallow, to their ever lasting detriment.

Thanks, appreciate your opinion.

If the Grace/Mystery Departure and the Prophesied 2nd Coming (of Revelation) are not future,
then, pray tell when ( in the past ) did they actually occur? And the historical evidence, please?

God's Great GRACE Departure!
(The Future Grace/Mystery Departure Rightly Divided From the also future Prophesied 2nd Coming)
Amen.
2 Tim 2:15 “rightly dividing the word of truth” IN CONTEXT, means Careful and Correct Interpretation of Scripture, distinguishing between types of instruction in Scripture (e.g., moral vs. ceremonial laws), understanding context, and avoiding superficial or twisted interpretations.

"Studies in the Book of Revelation Revelation 1:1-10 By Paul M. Sadler" = (UN-Holy Spirit enlightened, false interpretation, with an agenda) AND your understanding of 2 Tim 2:15 promote and justify, dispensational, Truth destroying doctrines, per the anti-Christ spirit in the world.

2Ti 2:15 "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth"
MEANS =
Principle Explanation Compare Scripture with Scripture = Interpret Bible passages harmoniously.
Be led by the Holy Spirit = Spiritual truth requires spiritual discernment.
Avoid misinterpretation = Don't use the Bible to prove false or speculative ideas.
Study deeply and thoroughly = Approach the Bible reverently and carefully.
Apply truth personally = Let it shape one’s character and daily decisions.
 
Jul 17, 2021
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Furthermore the Church is not Israel. Never has been never will be.

Only Israel is Israel, the sons of Jacob. And their seed.
Period.
I suspect you believe, obedience to God, as "boring" as well. LOL

I claim Jesus as the promises made to Israel, to be His Church, His Body ... Amen !

Faith makes us Abraham's children > Believers in Christ become spiritual Israel > Galatians 3:7, 3:29
Covenant belongs to spiritual Israel > Promises now apply to those who accept Christ > Romans 9:6–8

Christ is the true Seed > Connection with Him unites us to Abraham’s lineage > Galatians 3:16
Not by blood, but obedience > Obedience proves true descent from AbrahamJohn > 8:39, Matthew 3:9
Reflecting Abraham's character > Faith and works demonstrate we are the spiritual Israel > James 2:21–23

Therefore, by being the "Seed of Abraham" through faith in Christ, believers are considered part of the spiritual Israel, inheriting the promises made to Abraham.

Okay Sir, If you are " rightly dividing" the Word of God correctly, and I am NOT Israel, explain to me using Bible verses, as I just proved, that I AM Israel above, Show me how, I AM NOT, (rather than just your opinion.)
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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I suspect you believe, obedience to God, as "boring" as well. LOL

I claim Jesus as the promises made to Israel, to be His Church, His Body ... Amen !

Faith makes us Abraham's children > Believers in Christ become spiritual Israel > Galatians 3:7, 3:29
Covenant belongs to spiritual Israel > Promises now apply to those who accept Christ > Romans 9:6–8

Christ is the true Seed > Connection with Him unites us to Abraham’s lineage > Galatians 3:16
Not by blood, but obedience > Obedience proves true descent from AbrahamJohn > 8:39, Matthew 3:9
Reflecting Abraham's character > Faith and works demonstrate we are the spiritual Israel > James 2:21–23

Therefore, by being the "Seed of Abraham" through faith in Christ, believers are considered part of the spiritual Israel, inheriting the promises made to Abraham.

Okay Sir, If you are " rightly dividing" the Word of God correctly, and I am NOT Israel, explain to me using Bible verses, as I just proved, that I AM Israel above, Show me how, I AM NOT, (rather than just your opinion.)
Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: and I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: and I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭12:1-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram,

but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭17:5‬ ‭

“Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

….For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:7-9, 14, 26-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

israel

“And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭32:28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Now these are the names of the children of Israel, which came into Egypt; every man and his household came with Jacob. Reuben, Simeon, Levi, and Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, and Benjamin, Dan, and Naphtali, Gad, and Asher. And all the souls that came out of the loins of Jacob were seventy souls: for Joseph was in Egypt already.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭1:1-5‬ ‭

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭34:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭29:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Abraham’s seed

“And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, and said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: that in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭22:15-18‬ ‭

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ…… And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:16, 29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jacob is israel and the children of Israel are his children . Abraham’s children and hiers come from all Nations israel
Included who believe the gospel
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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I suspect you believe, obedience to God, as "boring" as well. LOL

I claim Jesus as the promises made to Israel, to be His Church, His Body ... Amen !

Faith makes us Abraham's children > Believers in Christ become spiritual Israel > Galatians 3:7, 3:29
Covenant belongs to spiritual Israel > Promises now apply to those who accept Christ > Romans 9:6–8

Christ is the true Seed > Connection with Him unites us to Abraham’s lineage > Galatians 3:16
Not by blood, but obedience > Obedience proves true descent from AbrahamJohn > 8:39, Matthew 3:9
Reflecting Abraham's character > Faith and works demonstrate we are the spiritual Israel > James 2:21–23

Therefore, by being the "Seed of Abraham" through faith in Christ, believers are considered part of the spiritual Israel, inheriting the promises made to Abraham.

Okay Sir, If you are " rightly dividing" the Word of God correctly, and I am NOT Israel, explain to me using Bible verses, as I just proved, that I AM Israel above, Show me how, I AM NOT, (rather than just your opinion.)
Bye.
 

HeIsHere

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May 21, 2022
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I understand it goes back to John N. Darby's and the Plymouth Brethren believers of the mid 1800s, which was yet another reiteration of the Catholic's beliefs and traditions, just repackaged in a way that "protestants" might more easy swallow, to their ever lasting detriment.
So, so true and here we are reaping the consequences of this. It is entirely tragic how many lives have been sacrificed. :cry:
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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Abrahams seed vis a vis the Sons of Jacob.

Tough one? Not really.
 

MrE

Salty Crew
Jan 26, 2023
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So, so true and here we are reaping the consequences of this. It is entirely tragic how many lives have been sacrificed. :cry:
And then came Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins.... :rolleyes: followed soon after (or preceded) by the Zionist movement.
 
Feb 22, 2021
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So, so true and here we are reaping the consequences of this. It is entirely tragic how many lives have been sacrificed. :cry:
And yet, we see ( I have for 35 years now ) studying God's Dispensational Doctrine
quite the opposite (Encouraged And Edified In God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided!) = ie:

BBS Letter Excerpts (the last 23 of about 7000+ over the years); example:

Not mine, but agree with:

From Our Mailbox: “I am really enjoying the Berean Searchlight​
and I cannot wait to receive the next one!”"​
Amen.