"I ask then why do people say Israel must go through the Tribulation?" Jeremiah 30.6. paraphrased.

[cv5]

When are you going to let TDW "school" you -

Speaking of "school", here is a lesson for you and @Cameron143 :

Gen 6:5
Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Gen 13:13
But the men of Sodom were exceedingly wicked and sinful against the LORD.

Luk 17:26
“And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man:
Luk 17:27
“They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28
“Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built;
Luk 17:29
“but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30
“Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

The Lord intentionally connects the pre-flood world, Sodom, and the state of the world at His Coming.

There are at least 3 common defects/attributes/phenomenon in all of these cases:
1) extreme wickedness in society. Fully sanctioned, fully integrated.
2) inappropriate contact (or attempted contact) with demonic entities, demon worship, demonic ritualistic religious practices.
3) direct and swift intervention by God Himself in devastating JUDGEMENT.

Does your "cracker jack box" eschatology factor in these unique phenomenal types and patterns that are clearly described to be taking place during the near-future 70th week so noted in Revelation and warned of my the Lord? No.

Do you realize/recognize the Satanic nature of the man of sin and the demonic infestation of the tribulation period? Do you comprehend that the "brain chips", "DNA tampering", "transhumanism" "AI" push is on by the world governmental powers? Do you comprehend that the counterfeit Satanic "mark of the beast" system of total knowledge, total control, totalitarian tyranny is being planned and will certainty be executed in the near future "no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark"?

Not so you would notice. You and @GaryA have NEVER, NOT ONCE spoken to these present (or future) dire conditions and events. Nor the certainty of the judgement to come. Ever.

Neither do you WARN the world of the coming One in judgment. Nor are you yourselves prepared for same.

You two go ahead and prattle on in your ignorance. I will continue to use both of you as a means to get the truth out to anybody who cares to listen.

 

[Cameron143]

It can't mean "all time" when referencing Satan being bound for 1,000 years ((Rev. 20:3)), because he is loosed again when the thousand years are finished ((Rev 20:7)).



wouldn't "after forever" be equivalent to "never"...?

The phrase simply means that shortly before the end of the church age Satan will be loosed. Then judgement and then the eternal estate.

 

[cv5]

I'm not this well up on this topic but is the desecration befor the rapture

Or after

Jews. Definitely. Post-rapture.

 

[Fundaamental]

Jews. Definitely. Post-rapture.

ok thank so there will be post rapture for some and pre for others, I can live with that I guess lol

 

[cv5]

Here is your future @Cameron143 and @GaryA
Demonic, dystopian, leading to devastating judgment by direct intervention by the Lord Jesus Himself.

Go ahead and actually listen to Yuval Noah Harari of the W.E.F. via the twitter links provided.
Oh.....and rots of ruck and happy landings. The both of you are gonna need it.

https://christianchat.com/threads/the-tribulation.210481/post-5070375

 

[Nehemiah6]

The phrase simply means that shortly before the end of the church age Satan will be loosed. Then judgement and then the eternal estate.

Cameron, you are simply embarrassing yourself with your clueless comments in regards to Bible prophecy. So either get serious about the matter or leave well enough alone.

"Before the end of the church age Satan will be loosed" is about as silly as it gets. We are presently in the Church Age and Satan is in fact on the loose. All you have to do is look around you. "Then judgment and then the eternal state" is also silly since there is a definite sequence of events all spelled out in the Bible.

 

[Cameron143]

Cameron, you are simply embarrassing yourself with your clueless comments in regards to Bible prophecy. So either get serious about the matter or leave well enough alone.

"Before the end of the church age Satan will be loosed" is about as silly as it gets. We are presently in the Church Age and Satan is in fact on the loose. All you have to do is look around you. "Then judgment and then the eternal state" is also silly since there is a definite sequence of events all spelled out in the Bible.

I don't disagree with your assessment but your timing. And I have come to enjoy the scholarship of your posts and have learned some things from you. But your demeaning attitude isn't befitting a Christian. I'm not personally bothered by it but if it is to be the tenor of your responses when we disagree, it would become sin to me to continue to put you in situations where you do not exercise courtesy or self control. While I'd like to be able to have discussions, your behavior is the determining factor.
Hoping for the best and blessings.

 

[cv5]

it would become sin to me to continue........

It seems clear that your sin is far more grave than what you yourself assess it to be:

2Pe 3:4
And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

To wit: your failure to acknowledge the truth of the Second Coming, the redemption of Israel, and failing to discharge the Great Commission in preaching to the world warning them of the judgment to come.

2Th 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Col 1:28
Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

1Th 3:13
To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Jas 5:8
Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

2Pe 3:12
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

1Jo 2:28
And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

 

[selahsays]

The phrase simply means that shortly before the end of the church age Satan will be loosed. Then judgement and then the eternal estate.

The way I see it, Satan will be loosed after the 1,000 year Millennium.

​

Rev. 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,​

​

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.​

selah

 

[cv5]

The phrase simply means that shortly before the end of the church age Satan will be loosed. Then judgement and then the eternal estate.

According to you, the Church age has no discernable horizon or termination point. You have stated that the present state could persist for interminable and uncountable ages. And that you do not know when it will end, if ever. And that any such future judgements are so far into the un-assessable future that nobody should even take notice of the present.

Yea, that's basically your position. Ridiculous it is.

 

[Cameron143]

The way I see it, Satan will be loosed after the 1,000 year Millennium.

​

Rev. 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,​

​

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.​

selah

That's the prevailing view here as well. It's my shared belief as well. I think the difference is stemming from whether it is a literal or figurative 1000 years.

 

[GaryA]

Speaking of "school", here is a lesson for you and @Cameron143 :

Does your "cracker jack box" eschatology factor in these unique phenomenal types and patterns that are clearly described to be taking place during the near-future 70th week so noted in Revelation and warned of my the Lord? No.

Do you realize/recognize the Satanic nature of the man of sin and the demonic infestation of the tribulation period? Do you comprehend that the "brain chips", "DNA tampering", "transhumanism" "AI" push is on by the world governmental powers? Do you comprehend that the counterfeit Satanic "mark of the beast" system of total knowledge, total control, totalitarian tyranny is being planned and will certainty be executed in the near future "no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark"?

Not so you would notice. You and @GaryA have NEVER, NOT ONCE spoken to these present (or future) dire conditions and events. Nor the certainty of the judgement to come. Ever.

Neither do you WARN the world of the coming One in judgment. Nor are you yourselves prepared for same.

You two go ahead and prattle on in your ignorance. I will continue to use both of you as a means to get the truth out to anybody who cares to listen.

Boy, are you not paying any attention AT ALL whatsoever to my posts...

I have posted about these things many times - perhaps, you missed those posts?

Every time you read one of my posts within which I mention that 'the worst is yet to come' (or similar remark/statement) - what do you think I am referring to???

I warn people all-the-time that there will be no pre-trib rapture - and that - they will have to deal with - "up close and personal" - all of the present evil in this world - and that - they will have to stand strong against the beast - and, if it comes to it, not accept the mark of the beast.

I warn people all-the-time to prepare themselves for the day when they will be beheaded for not worshipping the beast.

Where have you been for the past over-ten-years while I have been saying these things???

Remember that I am not a preterist.

Apparently, you must think that I agree totally with everything @Cameron143 has expressed; however, that is not true. And, I am not going to berate him just because his eschatological beliefs are different than mine. What I do agree with him about is that the 'attitude' that you and some others exhibit is not what it ought to be.

In your pride and arrogance, you have totally ignored the things where we actually agree.

I am not against you.

You seem to be against yourself.

Chill out.

Calm down.

Pay attention.

Swallow your pride.

Be the brother who - in humility - is apt to edify and encourage. - swift to hear, slow to wrath - you know the verse...

 

[posthuman]

It matters not - Iraneus is not 'credible' in my opinion.

also Eusebius, Hegesippus, Tertullian, Origen, Jerome, Clement of Alexandria and Victorinus - all earlier than the single 6th century Syriac source which disagrees on other points about John's life, making it suspect.



It's interesting how quickly you went from "Iraneus was misinterpreted" to "OK I don't believe Iraneus at all anyway"

confirmation bias, much?

 

[GaryA]

I did not say that - you are thinking of someone else.

 

[cv5]

Boy, are you not paying any attention AT ALL whatsoever to my posts...

I have posted about these things many times - perhaps, you missed those posts?

Every time you read one of my posts within which I mention that 'the worst is yet to come' (or similar remark/statement) - what do you think I am referring to???

I warn people all-the-time that there will be no pre-trib rapture - and that - they will have to deal with - "up close and personal" - all of the present evil in this world - and that - they will have to stand strong against the beast - and, if it comes to it, not accept the mark of the beast.

I warn people all-the-time to prepare themselves for the day when they will be beheaded for not worshipping the beast.

Where have you been for the past over-ten-years while I have been saying these things???

Remember that I am not a preterist.

Apparently, you must think that I agree totally with everything @Cameron143 has expressed; however, that is not true. And, I am not going to berate him just because his eschatological beliefs are different than mine. What I do agree with him about is that the 'attitude' that you and some others exhibit is not what it ought to be.

In your pride and arrogance, you have totally ignored the things where we actually agree.

I am not against you.

You seem to be against yourself.

Chill out.

Calm down.

Pay attention.

Swallow your pride.

Be the brother who - in humility - is apt to edify and encourage. - swift to hear, slow to wrath - you know the verse...

You say that the Trib, SC and rapture were all accomplished in the 1st century. Right? You are an historicist right?

 

[cv5]

That's the prevailing view here as well. It's my shared belief as well. I think the difference is stemming from whether it is a literal or figurative 1000 years.

Did you not state earlier (on another thread) that, according to you, the Kingom is already here, now, established. Christ is reigning. The world conditions are IMPROVING, incrementally and inexorably, getting better and better and better. And will continue to do so for a long LONG time to come. Correct?

 

[Nehemiah6]

I warn people all-the-time that there will be no pre-trib rapture - and that - they will have to deal with - "up close and personal" - all of the present evil in this world - and that - they will have to stand strong against the beast - and, if it comes to it, not accept the mark of the beast.

The only problem is that this totally misrepresents what is actually in the Bible.

King James 2000 Bible (2 Thess 2:7)
For the mystery of iniquity does already work: only he who now restrains will do so, until he be taken out of the way. This is a critical verse in the matter of whether the Rapture takes place before the Tribulation (which corresponds to the reign of the Antichrist) or not. AND THIS VERSE TOTALLY REFUTES YOUR FALSE IDEAS.

So I will let Gaebelein explain something to you which you probably do not want to hear, and will probably reject because it completely destroys your world view.

"The mystery of lawlessness will cease to be a mystery when the lawless one, the man of sin, is manifested. But what keeps back the manifestation of this lawless one? Who or what is it that restrains it? Who is to be taken out of the way before the lawless one can be revealed? Many answers have been given to this question which we do not need to investigate. It is self evident that that which restraineth must be a power superior to man and Satan and of a nature totally different to the man of sin. The restraining one is a power and a person. It is the Holy Spirit of God.

“The Holy Ghost was here below; the Church, be its condition what it might, was still on earth, and God maintained the barrier. And as the porter had opened the door to Jesus in spite of all obstacles, so He sustains everything, however great the energy and progress of evil. The evil is bridled: God is the source of authority on earth. There is one who hinders until he be taken out of the way. Now, when the Church (the Church, that is, as composed of the true members of Christ) is gone, and consequently the Holy Ghost as the Comforter is no longer dwelling here below, then the apostasy takes place, the time to remove the hindrance is come, the evil is unbridled, and at length (without saying how much time it will take) the evil assumes a definite shape in him who is its head. The beast comes up from the abyss. Satan-not God-gives him his authority; and in the second beast all the energy of Satan is present. The man of sin is there” (Synopsis of the Bible).

When the Church leaves the earth then this restraining power and person, who dwells in the Church and therefore is here on earth, will be taken out of the way. As the result, in due time, the lawless one will be revealed. The Holy Spirit, who came down from heaven on the day of Pentecost to form the Church, the body of Christ, will be withdrawn when that body is complete and taken to glory to be joined to the Head, the Lord Jesus Christ. The light being gone, gross darkness will settle upon the nations, the apostasy will be here, the enemy comes in like a flood and the lawless one appears. Here we have the best evidence that the true Church cannot be on the earth during the final years with which this age closes. No true believer will be in the final apostasy under the lawless one, nor will the Church pass through the great tribulation. How this should fill our hearts with holy joy and our lips with praises!"

 

[Nehemiah6]

I think the difference is stemming from whether it is a literal or figurative 1000 years.

How can something as critical as the literal reign of Christ on earth be "figurative"? And the internal evidence itself totally refutes this silly notion.

 

[Cameron143]

How can something as critical as the literal reign of Christ on earth be "figurative"? And the internal evidence itself totally refutes this silly notion.

I believe He is reigning. He is building His church and the gates of hell are not prevailing against it. When someone sovereignly does as He pleases, is that ruling?
God has worked gradually through history. He has made promises and has patiently and methodically followed a timetable to accomplish that plan.
For instance, He promised shortly after sin to bring redemption through a child. Depending on your timetable of history, that wasn't fulfilled for at least 4 thousand years. Not exactly in a hurry. But all of history was building to that future point.
So, too, God has promised to put all things under Christ. And it will happen. But that doesn't mean it has to be completed immediately. In the same way God fulfilled His plan of redemption through Christ, I believe He is gradually working through history to bring it to fruition. All according to His plan.
You and others make assumptions about what I think because that's how things are perceived if you already have certain beliefs and have drawn conclusions based on those beliefs. I get that. But if you aren't going to take the time to learn the arguments, your assessment will continue to be that its silly. I do understand that sentiment btw. I, personally, find it silly to call a short time period thousands of years but call 1000 years 1000 years. You have literally done the exact same thing as I have but in the opposite direction, but somehow it's perfectly reasonable when you do it.

 

[montana123]

This is very thoughtful

Somebody said to me in response to Paul's "and so all Israel shall be saved"
"ok, you are assuming that in the last times Israel is to be converted ... then what about the generations of Jews that have gone before? who have lived and died and not believed in Christ?"

I found this a tough nut to crack. God I know is not so arbitrary as to choose only one generation from the 10s of generations who went before and were not converted. Notwithstanding they had been sent among the nations where the gospel was to be preached [all of God's way are mercy] and yet they found no mercy in the eyes of the church in those nations. The Catholic church made them devils and enemies and a focus of hate and persecution rather than a focus of ministry, sadly Luther carried this over into the Reformed church. And yet many have been saved.

God showed me Daniel. 12. 2-3.
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to everlasting contempt. And those who be wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament and those who turn many to righteousness like the stars for ever and ever.

I saw in a flash

The Jews are to be raised at the time of the Rapture along with the church, not to be raptured but to be gathered to Israel. These are the Millennial saints teaching the nations, turning them to righteousness.

This is the meaning of the parable of the 10 maidens.

When the Gentiles take the mark of the beast then the fulness of the Gentiles have come in which means they cannot be saved.

So God will turn to Israel and turn them to the truth as a nation.

All Israel shall be saved is the Hebrews who are on earth when Jesus saves them, and the kingdom on earth restored to them.

But not all Hebrews will be saved for in the Old Testament if they did not abide by the truth they were cut off, and the Hebrews that rejected Jesus when He was on earth cannot have salvation, or any Hebrews that reject Jesus after hearing about Him sufficiently.