Hypergrace Mockers
- Thread starter ChosenbyHim
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
The word translated as salvation means "deliverance". The type of deliverance depends on the specific situation shared with us in scripture but the point is to prove that there's a Mighty and Loving God who delivers.
You're insinuating that I'm minimizing the Messiah's salvation because I shared OT examples and passages as if none of it matters anymore. If all that was important were the events of the gospels then that's all the scripture we would have been given by the Almighty. But it's ALL important. So it's not me minimizing the cross, it's actually you who's minimizing everything else.
We're given all of scripture to understand the Almighty's WAYS, not just His acts. It's so we can get to know Him - across different scenarios and situations - to know what's expected from Him, and to be able to discern when there's a spirit that's pretending to be from Him to potentially lead us away from righteousness (recall the wolves Paul mentions in Acts 20 and the man of sin Paul mentions in 2 Thess 2).
And, yes, we're supposed to understand it all in order (OT and then NT). But when we have a Christian culture that STARTS AT Paul's explanation of the cross (and not even at the NT events that lead to the cross), that's not a Christian culture that's been built on a proper foundation...and such necessitates returning to the elementary principles built by the OT. When each NT writer mentions "the scriptures" or encourages the study of the scriptures they're not referring to each other's letters but referring to the OT.
Again, the New Testament (post-cross) writers like Paul and Peter and the writer of Hebrews, when they encourage to "study to show yourself approved" of God, they were referring to the so-called Old Testament because there was no New Testament when they said this.
2 Timothy 2:14-15
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Paul wasn't speaking about his letters, or the apostles' letters, or the book of acts, or the gospels when he wrote this to Timothy. He was speaking about studying everything before that. You speak of context being important, which I 100% agree with, well this is a pretty important bit of context. After the cross, Paul told Timothy to study (what we now call) the OT to show himself approved of God. Today we have both the OT and the NT, but we definitely can't go wrong if we're simply following Paul's instructions.
I have no idea what you mean by this question.
In the context of the Messiah; there's salvation that equals "delivery from bondage to sin", and then salvation that equals "the redemption of these mortal bodies". The Messiah achieved the first step at the cross. It was/is a GIFT that we simply need to believe in to receive. Justification. The second step is the REWARD for good work that only comes through obedience. Maturity. Sanctification.
Hebrews 5:7-6:2 [Brackets Mine for emphases]
7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec [from the Old Testament]. Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing [why are they dull of hearing about the Order of Melchisedec?].
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God [i.e. the Old Testament]; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness [i.e. the Old Testament]: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use [of the Old Testament] have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Faith in the cross isn't the destination. It's the starting point. We are then supposed to train to become mature, using the Old Testament, because at any point someone can come along and draw the unskilled away from the truth, causing us to fall away as prophesied.
You're insinuating that I'm minimizing the Messiah's salvation because I shared OT examples and passages as if none of it matters anymore. If all that was important were the events of the gospels then that's all the scripture we would have been given by the Almighty. But it's ALL important. So it's not me minimizing the cross, it's actually you who's minimizing everything else.
We're given all of scripture to understand the Almighty's WAYS, not just His acts. It's so we can get to know Him - across different scenarios and situations - to know what's expected from Him, and to be able to discern when there's a spirit that's pretending to be from Him to potentially lead us away from righteousness (recall the wolves Paul mentions in Acts 20 and the man of sin Paul mentions in 2 Thess 2).
And, yes, we're supposed to understand it all in order (OT and then NT). But when we have a Christian culture that STARTS AT Paul's explanation of the cross (and not even at the NT events that lead to the cross), that's not a Christian culture that's been built on a proper foundation...and such necessitates returning to the elementary principles built by the OT. When each NT writer mentions "the scriptures" or encourages the study of the scriptures they're not referring to each other's letters but referring to the OT.
Again, the New Testament (post-cross) writers like Paul and Peter and the writer of Hebrews, when they encourage to "study to show yourself approved" of God, they were referring to the so-called Old Testament because there was no New Testament when they said this.
2 Timothy 2:14-15
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Paul wasn't speaking about his letters, or the apostles' letters, or the book of acts, or the gospels when he wrote this to Timothy. He was speaking about studying everything before that. You speak of context being important, which I 100% agree with, well this is a pretty important bit of context. After the cross, Paul told Timothy to study (what we now call) the OT to show himself approved of God. Today we have both the OT and the NT, but we definitely can't go wrong if we're simply following Paul's instructions.
I have no idea what you mean by this question.
In the context of the Messiah; there's salvation that equals "delivery from bondage to sin", and then salvation that equals "the redemption of these mortal bodies". The Messiah achieved the first step at the cross. It was/is a GIFT that we simply need to believe in to receive. Justification. The second step is the REWARD for good work that only comes through obedience. Maturity. Sanctification.
Hebrews 5:7-6:2 [Brackets Mine for emphases]
7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec [from the Old Testament]. Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing [why are they dull of hearing about the Order of Melchisedec?].
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God [i.e. the Old Testament]; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness [i.e. the Old Testament]: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use [of the Old Testament] have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Faith in the cross isn't the destination. It's the starting point. We are then supposed to train to become mature, using the Old Testament, because at any point someone can come along and draw the unskilled away from the truth, causing us to fall away as prophesied.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
Which "saved" are you asking about: delivery from bondage to sin or transformation of mortal bodies to immortal?
Does anyone - Jew or gentile - need to offer up animal sacrifices today? No. Because that's specifically what the Messiah came to perform. This is why the study of the OT is important so that we can understand which "law" Paul is referring to when he mentions "law" from Romans to Galatians.
Every law is broken into two categories (this is true within any society, including the Kingdom of God):
1) Laws to abide by as a just person (to avoid committing a crime)
2) The steps to perform to pay for a crime (once committed), to restore one's right standing in the law
The law of Almighty is broken into two categories:
1) The Commandments to obey as a just person (to avoid sin)
2) The works of the law to perform to cleanse sin (once committed), to restore one's right standing in the law
The law of Almighty before the cross:
1) The Commandments to obey as a just person (to avoid sin)
2) Blood rituals (i.e. animal sacrifice) and cleansing rites >>> did nothing but point to Messiah's work
The law of Almighty after the cross (law changed, not ended; Hebrews 7:12):
1) The Commandments to obey as a just person (to avoid sin) >>> gifts given to perform (Holy Spirit, Grace, ministries, etc)
2) Messiah performs cleansing rituals in heaven w/His blood >>> requires our faith (because we can't see it from down here)
It's the book of Hebrews that says the law was changed by necessity because of a change of priesthood; a critical bit of information that we miss when we ignore this book.
What's more, the following shows the audience or groups Paul visited during his ministry (Peter's letter was added to show who was in Galatia):
Rome - Jews & Gentiles
Romans 1:7
7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Acts 28:16-17
16 When we arrived in Rome, Paul was permitted to stay by himself, with a soldier to guard him.
17 After three days, he called together the leaders of the Jews. When they had gathered, he said to them, “Brothers, although I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, I was taken prisoner in Jerusalem and handed over to the Romans.
Corinth - Jews & Gentiles
1 Corinthians 1:2
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
Acts 18:1,4
1 After this, Paul left Athens and went to Corinth...4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
Galatia - Jews & Gentiles
Galatians 1:2
2And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
1 Peter 1:1
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
Ephesus - Jews
Ephesians 1:1
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Acts 18:19-21
19 And he came to Ephesus, and left them there: but he himself entered into the synagogue, and reasoned with the jews. 20 When they desired him to tarry longer time with them, he consented not; 21 But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.
Philippi - Jews & Gentiles
Philippians 1:1
1Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
Acts 16:11-13
11 Therefore loosing from Troas, we came with a straight course to Samothracia, and the next day to Neapolis; 12 And from thence to Philippi, which is the chief city of that part of Macedonia, and a colony: and we were in that city abiding certain days. 13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.
Colosse/Phrygia - Jews & Gentiles
Colossians 1:2
2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Acts 2:10; 16:23
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
23 And after he had spent some time there, he departed, and went over all the country of Galatia and Phrygia in order, strengthening all the disciples.
Thessalonica - Jews & Gentiles
1 Thessalonians 1: 1
1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Acts 17:1-4
1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: 2And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ. And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.
Timothy - A mixed Jew-Greek
1 Timothy 1:2
2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
Acts 16:1
1 Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek:
Titus - A Gentile Proselyte "strongly tied" to the synagogue in Corinth
Titus 1:4
4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
Acts 18:7 [Grk original]
And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named [Titus] Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.
Philemon - A believer from Colosse (a Jew & Gentile community; see above)
Philemon 1:1-2
Paul, a prisoner of Jesus Christ, and Timothy our brother, unto Philemon our dearly beloved, and fellowlabourer, 2 And to our beloved Apphia, and Archippus our fellowsoldier, and to the church in thy house:
----
Paul's audience was a mixture of Jew and gentile proselytes.
Does anyone - Jew or gentile - need to offer up animal sacrifices today? No. Because that's specifically what the Messiah came to perform. This is why the study of the OT is important so that we can understand which "law" Paul is referring to when he mentions "law" from Romans to Galatians.
Every law is broken into two categories (this is true within any society, including the Kingdom of God):
1) Laws to abide by as a just person (to avoid committing a crime)
2) The steps to perform to pay for a crime (once committed), to restore one's right standing in the law
The law of Almighty is broken into two categories:
1) The Commandments to obey as a just person (to avoid sin)
2) The works of the law to perform to cleanse sin (once committed), to restore one's right standing in the law
The law of Almighty before the cross:
1) The Commandments to obey as a just person (to avoid sin)
2) Blood rituals (i.e. animal sacrifice) and cleansing rites >>> did nothing but point to Messiah's work
The law of Almighty after the cross (law changed, not ended; Hebrews 7:12):
1) The Commandments to obey as a just person (to avoid sin) >>> gifts given to perform (Holy Spirit, Grace, ministries, etc)
2) Messiah performs cleansing rituals in heaven w/His blood >>> requires our faith (because we can't see it from down here)
It's the book of Hebrews that says the law was changed by necessity because of a change of priesthood; a critical bit of information that we miss when we ignore this book.
What's more, the following shows the audience or groups Paul visited during his ministry (Peter's letter was added to show who was in Galatia):
Rome - Jews & Gentiles
Romans 1:7
7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Acts 28:16-17
16 When we arrived in Rome, Paul was permitted to stay by himself, with a soldier to guard him.
17 After three days, he called together the leaders of the Jews. When they had gathered, he said to them, “Brothers, although I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, I was taken prisoner in Jerusalem and handed over to the Romans.
Corinth - Jews & Gentiles
1 Corinthians 1:2
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
Acts 18:1,4
1 After this, Paul left Athens and went to Corinth...4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
Galatia - Jews & Gentiles
Galatians 1:2
2And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
1 Peter 1:1
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
Ephesus - Jews
Ephesians 1:1
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Acts 18:19-21
19 And he came to Ephesus, and left them there: but he himself entered into the synagogue, and reasoned with the jews. 20 When they desired him to tarry longer time with them, he consented not; 21 But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.
Philippi - Jews & Gentiles
Philippians 1:1
1Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
Acts 16:11-13
11 Therefore loosing from Troas, we came with a straight course to Samothracia, and the next day to Neapolis; 12 And from thence to Philippi, which is the chief city of that part of Macedonia, and a colony: and we were in that city abiding certain days. 13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.
Colosse/Phrygia - Jews & Gentiles
Colossians 1:2
2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Acts 2:10; 16:23
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
23 And after he had spent some time there, he departed, and went over all the country of Galatia and Phrygia in order, strengthening all the disciples.
Thessalonica - Jews & Gentiles
1 Thessalonians 1: 1
1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Acts 17:1-4
1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: 2And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ. And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.
Timothy - A mixed Jew-Greek
1 Timothy 1:2
2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
Acts 16:1
1 Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek:
Titus - A Gentile Proselyte "strongly tied" to the synagogue in Corinth
Titus 1:4
4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
Acts 18:7 [Grk original]
And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named [Titus] Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.
Philemon - A believer from Colosse (a Jew & Gentile community; see above)
Philemon 1:1-2
Paul, a prisoner of Jesus Christ, and Timothy our brother, unto Philemon our dearly beloved, and fellowlabourer, 2 And to our beloved Apphia, and Archippus our fellowsoldier, and to the church in thy house:
----
Paul's audience was a mixture of Jew and gentile proselytes.
Ok. In my last post is went over the target audiences of each of the letters we know Paul wrote...and most of them were a mix of Jews and Gentiles.
Can you list the books of the bible that you believe are exclusively for gentile believers? I assume the list will by limited to just NT books and exclude Hebrews and James.
Can you list the books of the bible that you believe are exclusively for gentile believers? I assume the list will by limited to just NT books and exclude Hebrews and James.
You add " meaningless ' to poison the well ,so to speak . All scripture is for us . I've said this over and over . Until you see that Jesus was speaking to Israel the majority of the time and not put yourself in every verse it will be clear . And its ok . Its honouring to God to believe who he's addressing.
Again you are confusing ethnicity with our position in Christ. Of course there are Jews and gentiles in the new covenant that's their ethnicity. But they are one in Christ.
So to answer your specific question to whom was the book of Hebrews addressed. It was to Christians. Yes, they may have been Jews but Christians none the less. Christians saved by the Life, death and Resurrection of our Lord, just like us all.
One new covenant, one people of God. Jew and gentile in the new covenant.
---------------------------------------------
(Hebrews 9)
11 But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here,[a] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining[b] eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[c] so that we may serve the living God!
15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
----------------------------------------------
I'm afraid you have that wrong.. (I'm not referring to covenant theology) We are in the New Covenant... Don't all Christians believe that?
---------------------------------------------
(Hebrews 9)
11 But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!
15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
----------------------------------------------