How to be Born Again
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This is a rather tired argument.
In fact, it is simply silly to give a command to anyone who is unable to comply.
It begs the question: what's the point of commanding something that the person CANNOT perform?
Can you answer that? What's the point?
Another tired argument. The word "whosoever" clearly implies ANYONE.
Prove the opposite if I'm wrong.
Why not? What else can "whole world" mean except ANYONE AND EVERYONE?
It is clear that you don't. And you don't have ANY verses that state the principles of TULIP. So why do you believe it?
The so-called "elect" are defined by Scripture. They are believers already.
Eph 1:4 says God chose (elected) US. OK. So who are the US? Paul very clearly defined the US in Eph 1:19. "us who believe".
So 1:4 teaches that God chose BELIEVERS to be holy and blameless.
I see that you don't believe the words of Acts 16:30-31 or Rom 5:1, and a whole host of other verses about how to have salvation/eternal life.
So let me help you see the truth.
Salvation:
Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."
Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'
Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.
2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
Eternal Life:
John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord
1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.
Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
To summarize, in NONE of these verses about salvation/eternal life mentions election.
That's what you have done.
And that describes you.
Yes He is. And He is the One who gives eternal life to those who believe in Him for it. John 3:15,16, 5:24.
Faith is not a fruit of salvation. You have the cart before the horse, which ran over the horse and killed it.
So you are beating a dead horse.
In fact, it is simply silly to give a command to anyone who is unable to comply.
It begs the question: what's the point of commanding something that the person CANNOT perform?
Can you answer that? What's the point?
Another tired argument. The word "whosoever" clearly implies ANYONE.
Prove the opposite if I'm wrong.
Why not? What else can "whole world" mean except ANYONE AND EVERYONE?
It is clear that you don't. And you don't have ANY verses that state the principles of TULIP. So why do you believe it?
The so-called "elect" are defined by Scripture. They are believers already.
Eph 1:4 says God chose (elected) US. OK. So who are the US? Paul very clearly defined the US in Eph 1:19. "us who believe".
So 1:4 teaches that God chose BELIEVERS to be holy and blameless.
I see that you don't believe the words of Acts 16:30-31 or Rom 5:1, and a whole host of other verses about how to have salvation/eternal life.
So let me help you see the truth.
Salvation:
Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."
Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'
Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.
2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
Eternal Life:
John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord
1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.
Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
To summarize, in NONE of these verses about salvation/eternal life mentions election.
That's what you have done.
And that describes you.
Yes He is. And He is the One who gives eternal life to those who believe in Him for it. John 3:15,16, 5:24.
Faith is not a fruit of salvation. You have the cart before the horse, which ran over the horse and killed it.
So you are beating a dead horse.
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FreeGrace2 said:
Everyone chooses to believe. Unless you are a robot or puppet. But that's a different thing.
Oh, right. Let's bring in the IQ thing. Are you not aware that there are many very smart scientists who believe in a theory called evolution, which has never been proven, and has been refuted by facts? What do you do with those guys?
I will assume you've been through the educational system. Did everyone in every class pay full attention, or where there dreamers and goof offs in class? So, you see, there are those who CHOOSE to pay attention and those who CHOOSE not to.
This is so blatantly dishonest that I reject the rest of your post. I said nothing close to what you are twisting.
I even gave examples of high IQ people who reject the gospel, meaning they refuse to believe it. So believing the gospel CANNOT be argued being "smarter" than others. Your response indicates that there is no reason to continue a discussion with you.
Good day.
Everyone chooses to believe. Unless you are a robot or puppet. But that's a different thing.
Oh, right. Let's bring in the IQ thing. Are you not aware that there are many very smart scientists who believe in a theory called evolution, which has never been proven, and has been refuted by facts? What do you do with those guys?
I will assume you've been through the educational system. Did everyone in every class pay full attention, or where there dreamers and goof offs in class? So, you see, there are those who CHOOSE to pay attention and those who CHOOSE not to.
This is so blatantly dishonest that I reject the rest of your post. I said nothing close to what you are twisting.
I even gave examples of high IQ people who reject the gospel, meaning they refuse to believe it. So believing the gospel CANNOT be argued being "smarter" than others. Your response indicates that there is no reason to continue a discussion with you.
Good day.
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FreeGrace2 said:
It appears that you are unable to connect the dots.
If that were true, and from the introduction of Cornelius at the beginning of Acts, then yes he would have been saved.
However, when Peter explained to the believing Jews in ch 11 as to WHY he went to the home of Gentiles, he said this:
11:14 - He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.’
So, just who is the "He" here? Glad you asked.
11 “Right then three men who had been sent to me from Caesarea stopped at the house where I was staying.
12 The Spirit told me to have no hesitation about going with them. These six brothers also went with me, and we entered the man’s house.
13 He told us how he had seen an angel appear in his house and say, ‘Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter.
Oh, so it was the Holy Spirit who told Peter to go there. And then in v.13 we have Peter basically quoting Cornelius stating what the angel told him.
So your argument is against an angel of God, who was sent to Cornelius with instructions. And Cornelius told Peter the angel told him that he WOULD BE SAVED by Peter's message. (v.14)
Why are you being so stubborn against the truth?
Wow. Such stubborness against the Bible. I just proved that Cornelius was NOT SAVED prior to Peter's message, yet you continue to hold on to your own opinions.
Acts 11:14 totally destroys your opinion.
It appears that you are unable to connect the dots.
If that were true, and from the introduction of Cornelius at the beginning of Acts, then yes he would have been saved.
However, when Peter explained to the believing Jews in ch 11 as to WHY he went to the home of Gentiles, he said this:
11:14 - He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.’
So, just who is the "He" here? Glad you asked.
11 “Right then three men who had been sent to me from Caesarea stopped at the house where I was staying.
12 The Spirit told me to have no hesitation about going with them. These six brothers also went with me, and we entered the man’s house.
13 He told us how he had seen an angel appear in his house and say, ‘Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter.
Oh, so it was the Holy Spirit who told Peter to go there. And then in v.13 we have Peter basically quoting Cornelius stating what the angel told him.
So your argument is against an angel of God, who was sent to Cornelius with instructions. And Cornelius told Peter the angel told him that he WOULD BE SAVED by Peter's message. (v.14)
Why are you being so stubborn against the truth?
Wow. Such stubborness against the Bible. I just proved that Cornelius was NOT SAVED prior to Peter's message, yet you continue to hold on to your own opinions.
Acts 11:14 totally destroys your opinion.
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No, and I'm not sure you understand ? A verse that SAYS what you are claiming . All your doing is claiming , assuming and inferring. ( the heart beat of Calvinism. ) Its kinda pointless further discussing if you don't understand the point . I literally believe what the bible is Saying . You believe stuff on the basis of what you think it teaches .
FreeGrace2 said:
Wow. Your record player is really stuck.
I gave 2 verses that plainly state that Jews REFUSED to believe. Do you understand what that means?
Apparently not. Because your calvinist talking points keep getting in the way.
Yes, that is quite obvious. You have demonstrated a total disinterest in what the Bible says. Because of your calvinist talking points that keep getting in the way.
You don't have any verses that say what you believe. And you just now have admitted you don't care about any verses that I give.
That says everything.
You are quite correct. The verses I have given do NOT change the facts.
In fact, they ARE the FACTS. Which you routinely reject.
Wow. Your record player is really stuck.
I gave 2 verses that plainly state that Jews REFUSED to believe. Do you understand what that means?
Apparently not. Because your calvinist talking points keep getting in the way.
Yes, that is quite obvious. You have demonstrated a total disinterest in what the Bible says. Because of your calvinist talking points that keep getting in the way.
You don't have any verses that say what you believe. And you just now have admitted you don't care about any verses that I give.
That says everything.
You are quite correct. The verses I have given do NOT change the facts.
In fact, they ARE the FACTS. Which you routinely reject.
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No one "produces" faith. Where do you get your material? Certainly not from the Bible.
When you approach a bridge, how long do you take to produce the faith to cross or drive over it?
See how silly that sounds?
Faith comes from the heart, as Rom 10:10 says. It's a conclusion from evidence. There is no "production" involved.
But calvinists need smokescreens that they hope will obscure from the fact that they have no verses to support TULIP.
When you approach a bridge, how long do you take to produce the faith to cross or drive over it?
See how silly that sounds?
Faith comes from the heart, as Rom 10:10 says. It's a conclusion from evidence. There is no "production" involved.
But calvinists need smokescreens that they hope will obscure from the fact that they have no verses to support TULIP.
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No it isn't. And you can't find any verse that says that.
In fact, Paul destroyed that opinion in Eph 2:5 and 8.
In verse 5 Paul equated being "made alive" or regeneration, with "have been saved" or salvation. So they go together. Can't have one without the other. Or prove me wrong with clearly worded Scripture.
Then, in v.8 Paul repeats the EXACT SAME WORDS from v.5 "have been saved" and notes, "by grace THROUGH FAITH.
iow, faith MUST BE present in order to be saved.
Rather, your calvinist talking points keep you from understanding Scripture. There is no Scripture in the talking points.
In fact, Paul destroyed that opinion in Eph 2:5 and 8.
In verse 5 Paul equated being "made alive" or regeneration, with "have been saved" or salvation. So they go together. Can't have one without the other. Or prove me wrong with clearly worded Scripture.
Then, in v.8 Paul repeats the EXACT SAME WORDS from v.5 "have been saved" and notes, "by grace THROUGH FAITH.
iow, faith MUST BE present in order to be saved.
Rather, your calvinist talking points keep you from understanding Scripture. There is no Scripture in the talking points.
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In fact, you've given NO verses that say what you claim. And you've been asked often enough.
Please don't make false statements.
I don't believe what Scripture doesn't say. And you haven't proven your claims with Scripture.
You have shown that you don't understand any of this. These verses don't support your opinions/talking points.
Please don't make false statements.
I don't believe what Scripture doesn't say. And you haven't proven your claims with Scripture.
You have shown that you don't understand any of this. These verses don't support your opinions/talking points.
FreeGrace2 said:
It appears that you are unable to connect the dots.
If that were true, and from the introduction of Cornelius at the beginning of Acts, then yes he would have been saved.
However, when Peter explained to the believing Jews in ch 11 as to WHY he went to the home of Gentiles, he said this:
11:14 - He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.’
So, just who is the "He" here? Glad you asked.
11 “Right then three men who had been sent to me from Caesarea stopped at the house where I was staying.
12 The Spirit told me to have no hesitation about going with them. These six brothers also went with me, and we entered the man’s house.
13 He told us how he had seen an angel appear in his house and say, ‘Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter.
Oh, so it was the Holy Spirit who told Peter to go there. And then in v.13 we have Peter basically quoting Cornelius stating what the angel told him.
So your argument is against an angel of God, who was sent to Cornelius with instructions. And Cornelius told Peter the angel told him that he WOULD BE SAVED by Peter's message. (v.14)
Why are you being so stubborn against the truth?
The one who doesn't get it is you. Acts 11:14 is crystal clear and you still don't believe that Cornelius wasn't saved before Peter preached the gospel to him.
very sad.
It appears that you are unable to connect the dots.
If that were true, and from the introduction of Cornelius at the beginning of Acts, then yes he would have been saved.
However, when Peter explained to the believing Jews in ch 11 as to WHY he went to the home of Gentiles, he said this:
11:14 - He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.’
So, just who is the "He" here? Glad you asked.
11 “Right then three men who had been sent to me from Caesarea stopped at the house where I was staying.
12 The Spirit told me to have no hesitation about going with them. These six brothers also went with me, and we entered the man’s house.
13 He told us how he had seen an angel appear in his house and say, ‘Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter.
Oh, so it was the Holy Spirit who told Peter to go there. And then in v.13 we have Peter basically quoting Cornelius stating what the angel told him.
So your argument is against an angel of God, who was sent to Cornelius with instructions. And Cornelius told Peter the angel told him that he WOULD BE SAVED by Peter's message. (v.14)
Why are you being so stubborn against the truth?
The one who doesn't get it is you. Acts 11:14 is crystal clear and you still don't believe that Cornelius wasn't saved before Peter preached the gospel to him.
very sad.
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The apostle Paul taught that election is to service, and he did so very clearly.
1 Cor 1-
1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and our brother Sosthenes,
2 To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours:
So here, Paul says he was "called" to be an apostle, and the Corinthian was "called" to be holy.
And, in Eph 1:4, he wrote that God chose US (believers, defined in v.19) to be holy and blameless.
And in Acts 9:15 the Lord Jesus told Ananias that Paul was:
But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.
So Paul viewed his election as a calling. And believers as chosen and called.
Further on in 1 Cor 1 Paul wrote this about calling and election:
26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth.
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,
29 so that no one may boast before him.
And in all these verses, election is for service. So, believers are called (invited) and chosen (elected) to service for the Lord.
Now, where are the verses that say that salvation is by election? Nowhere. There are none.
1 Cor 1-
1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and our brother Sosthenes,
2 To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours:
So here, Paul says he was "called" to be an apostle, and the Corinthian was "called" to be holy.
And, in Eph 1:4, he wrote that God chose US (believers, defined in v.19) to be holy and blameless.
And in Acts 9:15 the Lord Jesus told Ananias that Paul was:
But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.
So Paul viewed his election as a calling. And believers as chosen and called.
Further on in 1 Cor 1 Paul wrote this about calling and election:
26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth.
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,
29 so that no one may boast before him.
And in all these verses, election is for service. So, believers are called (invited) and chosen (elected) to service for the Lord.
Now, where are the verses that say that salvation is by election? Nowhere. There are none.
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