FreeGrace2 said:
Very good. Yes, I am. Because the Bible makes faith conditional upon salvation..
Everyone chooses to believe. Unless you are a robot or puppet. But that's a different thing.
Oh, right. Let's bring in the IQ thing. Are you not aware that there are many very smart scientists who believe in a theory called evolution, which has never been proven, and has been refuted by facts? What do you do with those guys?
Your argument just fell apart.
Of course I didn't. How ridiculous. Did you ask to be born again? Neither did I. So what? God offers salvation by grace (Titus 2:11) and He then does a whole lot MORE than just save us.
Again, your argument just fell apart.
That's what the Bible teaches clearly. And I am not a universalist and the Bible teaches that Christ died for everyone.
Or, if you want to twist "everyone" to only mean "the elect" how do you want to twist 1 Peter 3:18 - For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.
Do you want to argue that ONLY "the elect" are 'unrighteous'?
Well then, you're at least half way there to the truth.
Now, absorb Eph 2:8. Since we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH, that proves that we are regenerated the SAME WAY, which is THROUGH FAITH.
So there you have it. Faith before regeneration.
Where did you get the silly notion that I think saving faith is something "produced". The Bible doesn't teach that. So why do YOU claim that?
Faith is simply trusting. When YOU trust something (like a bridge or chair), did you have to "produce" that trust? Or how did you come to trusting in it?
Calvinists have a very bad habit of ignoring then VERY NEXT VERSE. So let's look at it:
v.45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God. ’Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
iow, those who paid attention by LISTENING and LEARNING will come to Jesus. Very simple. And free will all the way.
I will assume you've been through the educational system. Did everyone in every class pay full attention, or where there dreamers and goof offs in class? So, you see, there are those who CHOOSE to pay attention and those who CHOOSE not to.
Again, free will at work.
Yes, no man is able to save himself. That is not the issue here at all. And you have completely misunderstood Jesus' answer to the Jews. They asked this in v.28 - Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
Keep in mind that the Jews were very works oriented. They wrongly thought salvation was by works. So Jesus used a bit of tongue-in-cheek in His answer in v.29 - Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
He answered them according to their own words.
And the Bible is very clear about works vs faith. They are DIFFERENT.
Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9 prove that faith or believing is NOT A WORK.
So when you quote John 6:29 OUT OF CONTEXT, you are ignoring a lot of Scripture that refutes your argument.
Please don't take "dead" as meaning non-functional, a very common error among evangelicals.
Spiritual death means separation from God. It doesn't mean brain dead and unable to think.
Wow. All this comes from calvinism. Aren't you defending calvinism?
Your error is in thinking that somehow faith contributes to salvation. It doesn't. Where did you get that notion?
No, I understand what spiritual death means, unlike yourself.
You seem to be taking it to be physical death, or brain death. That's wrong.
Paul refutes your theory soundly in Rom 2:14,15
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
In the NT, the word Gentiles generally is used of unbelieving non Jews. And here Paul notes that even Gentiles have a conscience and can differentiate between right and wrong.
And that God WROTE the requirements of the law on their hearts.
Very good. Yes, I am. Because the Bible makes faith conditional upon salvation..
Everyone chooses to believe. Unless you are a robot or puppet. But that's a different thing.
Oh, right. Let's bring in the IQ thing. Are you not aware that there are many very smart scientists who believe in a theory called evolution, which has never been proven, and has been refuted by facts? What do you do with those guys?
Your argument just fell apart.
Of course I didn't. How ridiculous. Did you ask to be born again? Neither did I. So what? God offers salvation by grace (Titus 2:11) and He then does a whole lot MORE than just save us.
Again, your argument just fell apart.
That's what the Bible teaches clearly. And I am not a universalist and the Bible teaches that Christ died for everyone.
Or, if you want to twist "everyone" to only mean "the elect" how do you want to twist 1 Peter 3:18 - For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.
Do you want to argue that ONLY "the elect" are 'unrighteous'?
Well then, you're at least half way there to the truth.
Now, absorb Eph 2:8. Since we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH, that proves that we are regenerated the SAME WAY, which is THROUGH FAITH.
So there you have it. Faith before regeneration.
Where did you get the silly notion that I think saving faith is something "produced". The Bible doesn't teach that. So why do YOU claim that?
Faith is simply trusting. When YOU trust something (like a bridge or chair), did you have to "produce" that trust? Or how did you come to trusting in it?
Calvinists have a very bad habit of ignoring then VERY NEXT VERSE. So let's look at it:
v.45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God. ’Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
iow, those who paid attention by LISTENING and LEARNING will come to Jesus. Very simple. And free will all the way.
I will assume you've been through the educational system. Did everyone in every class pay full attention, or where there dreamers and goof offs in class? So, you see, there are those who CHOOSE to pay attention and those who CHOOSE not to.
Again, free will at work.
Yes, no man is able to save himself. That is not the issue here at all. And you have completely misunderstood Jesus' answer to the Jews. They asked this in v.28 - Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
Keep in mind that the Jews were very works oriented. They wrongly thought salvation was by works. So Jesus used a bit of tongue-in-cheek in His answer in v.29 - Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
He answered them according to their own words.
And the Bible is very clear about works vs faith. They are DIFFERENT.
Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9 prove that faith or believing is NOT A WORK.
So when you quote John 6:29 OUT OF CONTEXT, you are ignoring a lot of Scripture that refutes your argument.
Please don't take "dead" as meaning non-functional, a very common error among evangelicals.
Spiritual death means separation from God. It doesn't mean brain dead and unable to think.
Wow. All this comes from calvinism. Aren't you defending calvinism?
Your error is in thinking that somehow faith contributes to salvation. It doesn't. Where did you get that notion?
No, I understand what spiritual death means, unlike yourself.
You seem to be taking it to be physical death, or brain death. That's wrong.
Paul refutes your theory soundly in Rom 2:14,15
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
In the NT, the word Gentiles generally is used of unbelieving non Jews. And here Paul notes that even Gentiles have a conscience and can differentiate between right and wrong.
And that God WROTE the requirements of the law on their hearts.
