How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

GaryA · Nov 15, 2021

ewq1938 said:

Okay - let me try this again...

In the context of your illustration - what I am saying is that no one is being moved from the basket to anywhere else.

I am specifically addressing the 'grammar of the language'.

The only 'moving' is the gathering.

The 'from-to' is describing the range/extent of the gathering - not a from-here-to-there movement.

Does this make sense?

Runningman · Nov 15, 2021

GaryA said:

To me it reads like they are being gathered from wherever they are to somewhere else; that's what gathering means. If they are not physically moved from one geographic location to another then a gathering did not occur.

I think it means they are gathered from the surface of the Earth to the sky and that seems to make sense given that 1 Thessalonians 4:17 confirms Marks 13:27. That's a post-trib rapture slam dunk.

How did you get that they are not gathered?

GaryA · Nov 15, 2021

Runningman said:

I did not say that.

How in the whole-wide-world did you come to this conclusion?

Did I not say:

GaryA said:

??????????

I will try to re-explain in a future post. Please be patient.

Runningman · Nov 15, 2021

GaryA said:

My apologies. I see where you say they are gathered. I will patiently wait for your future post.

ewq1938 · Nov 15, 2021

GaryA said:

No.

Let's lose the analogy and get to the actual events.

There will be living Christian survivors of the Great Tribulation. They won't be in one location which is why they need to be gathered together to one location. So they will be caught up and all will arrive at one place in the clouds. That's how they are made to be "together", as well as together with them that were already in the clouds waiting for them. Then all will be taken down as Christ makes that actual coming especially Armageddon and surrounding events.

That is people being moved upwards as well as moving back down. So I disagree with your conclusion that no "from-here-to-there movement" takes place because there is actually two distinct movements of the same people.

GaryA · Nov 15, 2021

ewq1938 said:

You misunderstood what I was trying to get across. Please wait patiently with @Runningman until I write the post that will hopefully help both of you understand what I was trying to say.

And - I believe we are about 99% in agreement on this issue.

Read very carefully.

GRACE_ambassador · Nov 15, 2021

op: pre-trib popular in churches today?

Highly DOUBTFUL! Most are in- post-trib MORE popular!

Biblical Fact Is: God Made It Popular, When He Revealed It To
HIS GRACE apostle Paul, In HIS MYSTERY?:

Part I

God’s PRE - TOJT Great GRACE Departure!:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
LORD JESUS, we beseech Thee Now For Thy Divine Understanding
In This Thy Most Important Doctrine For our Comfort And Consolation.
Amen. (1 Thessalonians 4:18)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Time Of JACOB’s {Israel's} Trouble (TOJT), Ending With
The Second Coming, is found in God's Context:

God's Prophetic Program, Under LAW, gospel of the kingdom
(“ages” past/future) (Genesis-John; Hebrews-Revelation)

God’s “Earthly Kingdom” Purpose From “the foundation of the world”
(Matthew 25:34)

God's Purpose Prophesied “since the world began” (Luke 1:68-70; Acts 3:21!)

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

Great GRACE Departure!

Pre-TOJT Resurrection/Departure of The Body Of CHRIST,
Ending God’s Age Of GRACE, Is Found In:

God's Revelation Of The Mystery, Under The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God!
{ Current = “But NOW!” } (Romans through Philemon!)

God’s “Heavenly Hidden” Purpose Before “the foundation of the world”
(Ephesians 1:4; 2 Timothy 1:9!)

God's Heavenly Purpose Kept Secret “since the world began”
(Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:4-11, 3:5-9!)
-------------------
The Second Coming, According to Prophecy:

(1) Immediately After tribulation/4 signs, CHRIST, In His
Prophesied Second Advent, As KING Of kings, And LORD Of lords,
Is Coming From Heaven! (Matthew 24:29; Revelation 19:16, 11!)

(2) CHRIST Is Coming On a white horse, With Crowns On
His Head, And A Sword In His Mouth! (Revelation 19:12-15)

(3) CHRIST Is Coming With, (which Were In Heaven!),
His armies * on white horses! (Revelation 19:12-15)

(4) CHRIST Is Coming To earth With ONE army, * “All Of His holy angels,”
In Order To Judge/Make war/Smite And Rule the nations…
(Matthew 25:31; Revelation 19:11, 15)

(5) With Another trumpet (AFTER "the 7th angel trumpet in heaven), on
the earth, Angels Are SENT, By The KING, TO: “gather the elect”...
(Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:27!)

(6)...for the “judgment of the Earthly Nations” By The Son of man, The King!
(Matthew 25:31-46!)

(7) Those Judged as righteous then enter the kingdom! And the UNrighteous
then Depart into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels!
(Matthew 25:34-46!)

to be continued...

GRACE_ambassador · Nov 15, 2021

God’s PRE - TOJT Great GRACE Departure!:
Part II

God's Prophetic Program, and second earthly coming

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

The Great GRACE Departure, According to The Heavenly Mystery!:

(1) Immediately After GRACE Has ENDED/ZERO signs!:
CHRIST, As Head Of His Body, The Church, Will Descend From
Heaven! (Ephesians 1:19-23; Colossians 1:18; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17!)

(2) CHRIST Is Coming With A Shout, With the voice of an archangel,
And With The Trump of God! (1 Thessalonians 4:16!)

3) God (JESUS CHRIST) Will Bring With Him {those who Were With
Him In Heaven}, part Of His Own, those who are “asleep In JESUS!”
(2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:13!)

(4) CHRIST Descends With One archangel, Will resurrect those
asleep {in 3)} First, and Then, we “which are alive and remain,” {which
Is A Mystery!}, will be changed/all “incorruptible, And Caught Up”
together to meet The LORD in the air, in the “twinkling of an eye!”
(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:52-53!)

(5) CHRIST “Gathers His Body” To Himself, to Take them To Heaven...
(2 Thessalonians 2:1-3; 1 Corinthians 15:49; 2 Corinthians 12:2, 5:1-2;
Ephesians 1:3, 20, 2:6; Philippians 3:20; 2 Timothy 4:18!)

6)...For The Judgment Seat Of CHRIST, For HIS Heavenly Body,
By The Head Himself!... (Romans 2:6, 16, 14:10-12;
1 Corinthians 3:8-15, 4:5, 6:20; 2 Corinthians 5:10;
Ephesians 6:8; Colossians 3:24-25!)

(7a) ...After Judgment, the GRACE assembly Is Then Presented as
A Glorious Church, To CHRIST Himself!... (Ephesians 5:27!)

(7b) ...And, Then CHRIST Will Present His Body, holy and
unblameable and unreproveable, In His Sight, To His Father,
In Heaven, Where we Live * Forever And Ever! Amen!
(1 Thessalonians 3:13; Colossians 1:5, 22;
1 Corinthians 6:3; 2 Corinthians 5:1-2 KJB!)

* Note, The ONE army Of The Body Of CHRIST, Must "have been
assigned our Heavenly positions" for ruling and reigning! Amen?
---------------------------------------------------------------
LORD JESUS, thank You so much for Your Precious BLOOD,
Gift Of Eternal Salvation, And for Your Blessed Hope of
Glorification When You Come To Finally Gather us Home! Amen.
---------------------------------------------------------
Please Be Very Richly Blessed, Encouraged, And Comforted! And:
Precious friend(s), see you In God's Great GloryLand!! ♫ 😇 ↑

DavidTree · Nov 15, 2021

GRACE_ambassador said:

CHRIST told us, His Bride/His Elect/His Saints that HE is coming immediately after the Tribulation - done deal - no arguing.

CHRIST says that His Second Coming will not occur until the completion of the Fifth Seal - Revelation 6:9-11
And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”
Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

It is IMPOSSIBLE for the FIRST Resurrection to take place, by the Will of God, until all His Children are accounted for.
"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

We see the preaching of the Gospel by the Saints throughout Revelation until His Coming Rev 12:11 and Rev 14:12-13

They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony.
And they did not love their lives so as to shy away from death.

Here is a call for the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, “Blessed are the dead—those who die in the Lord from this moment on.”

The FIRST RESURRECTION of those who have died in Christ only occurs at His Second Coming - 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

After the First Resurrection, the rapture of remaining/living Saints will be caught up - 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.
Proverbs 30:5-6

Nehemiah6 · Nov 15, 2021

ewq1938 said:

If that were really true, then all Christians would be beheaded. Which is total nonsense.
You will not see "the Church" mentioned from Rev 4 to Rev 22. Which means that we are talking about the Tribulation saints while the Church is in Heaven.

Nehemiah6 · Nov 15, 2021

Evmur said:

But the judgment of the sheep and goat nations is BEFORE the Millennium and the Great White Throne judgment is AFTER the Millennium. So those are two separate judgments at two different times. How do we get things so mixed up?

GaryA · Nov 15, 2021

Nehemiah6 said:

No personal insult is intended by my saying this - but - this is very "ignorant" thinking -- especially in light of history.

After what many millions of Christians have experienced over the past ~2000 years - and, what many are experiencing today - why would anyone think for one second that they somehow "deserve" to escape the same kind of 'tribulation' or 'trouble'???

Whether you realize it or not:

~ The 'tribulation' saints are part of 'the Church'.

~ Both groups of saints described in Revelation 6:9-11 are 'tribulation' saints.

DavidTree · Nov 15, 2021

Nehemiah6 said:

That is preaching another gospel, one for the 'Church' and one for the 'tribulation saints'.

So where is this gospel you speak of? It is not in Scripture.

We absolutely see His Elect in Revelation from chapter 1 right thru to chapter 22.

The LORD gave His Warning and Blessing to each and every Saint - "He who has an ear to hear, let him hear....."

Do you have a ear to hear the Lord's words? "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who overcomes, I will grant the right to eat from the tree of life in the Paradise of God."

You have a choice to make, either head the words of Christ and overcome or add and take away from His Prophecy.

I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book.

ewq1938 · Nov 15, 2021

Nehemiah6 said:

It doesn't say all are killed nor did I say that so you are knocking down a strawman you created.

The fact that Christian saints including the two witnesses are there in the Great Tribulation proves the church is right there. No one was raptured away to avoid the Great Tribulation. That's why there is zero rapture in the Olivet Discourse before the Great Tribulation nor during it. There3 is only a rapture described after the Great Tribulation has ended which matches the timeframe Paul placed the rapture in.

Nehemiah6 · Nov 16, 2021

DavidTree said:

His "elect" can mean many things. So show us the words "church" and "churches" after Revelation 3. The term elect can also mean (a) saved Jews, (b) specific individuals elected for specific ministries, and (c) Christians within the Church. Context determines which group or individual is being referred to. The Church is absent from the earth when God pours out His divine judgments. Which is consistent with Gospel truth and Bible truth. Even compromising Lot and his family were forcibly removed from Sodom.

And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city. And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city. (Gen 19:15,16)

So why do Christians think that God will pour out His wrath upon the Church? Is that wishful thinking or stupid thinking?

ewq1938 · Nov 16, 2021

Nehemiah6 said:

Literally no one believes that. This is just another lame strawman fallacy.

Nehemiah6 · Nov 16, 2021

ewq1938 said:

Really. Kindly take a good hard look at Revelation 20:4: And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Beheaded = killed and the heads separated from their bodies. Now will the whole Church be beheaded? Not according to Scripture. Which means that the Tribulation saints are the ones who are beheaded, and then resurrected by Christ when (or before) He sets up His Millennial Kingdom.

GaryA · Nov 16, 2021

Nehemiah6 said:

All? - perhaps not.

Most? - you can count on it...

Evmur · Nov 16, 2021

Nehemiah6 said:

they are the same, the last judgement, the judgement of the quick and the dead.

I can tell you why you get mixed up.

You get mixed up because Paul's understanding is different to the other apostles. They are not contradictory, they are both correct. But the Jews did not understand that was to be a gap, a long delay, a parenthesis in which the Jews were to be diminished and the church planted as a nation among the heathen nations, a thing unthinkable and incomprehensible to the Jewish mind.

Because Paul understood this he understood why the church would be gathered, taken out, raptured before God's judgement would come upon the nations. Only Paul taught the rapture.

Paul understood that 1,000 years would begin after the church was raptured, the Jews thought that the church was the 1, 000 year reign.

It is concerning the day of the Lord and a day with the Lord being as a 1, 000 years that Peter writes "our beloved Paul writes about these same things many things he writes are hard to be understood"

The last day when the Lord would come and raise the living and the dead would in both cases be at the end of 1, 000 years so both understandings were correct. But with Paul there is the interjection of the rapture. In Paul's understanding the resurrection comes in 3 stages, 1st Christ, then we who are Christ's at His coming, then the general resurrection at the last day, after Christ has reigned for the 1, 000 years.

Only in John's Revelation do we see this order repeated. You are going by the Jewish understanding.

Absolutely · Nov 16, 2021

Runningman said:

Jesus returns to gather His elect. That's exactly how the rapture is described in every camp whether pre, mid, or post trib.

In other rapture verses Jesus comes back to gather His elect. What makes the post-trib rapture sure and scriptural is Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 say this literally happens after the tribulation that was described in the preceding verses.

Mark 13:24-27
24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Rev 14
Jesus gathers with a sickle sitting on a cloud during the trib.

So you have the dead in christ raised after the living.

That alone destroys postrib rapture doctrine

How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

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