How should we understand John 17:1-3 ?

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studier

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#21
John 2:24 But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because he knew all men,
25 kai (and) hoti (that/because) ou (not) chreian (a need) eichen (he was having) hina (that his intention was that) tis (any) marturEsEi (should testify) peri (concerning) tou anthrOpou (the man) autos yar (for he) eginOsken (was knowing) ti (what) En (was) tOi anthrOpOi (to/for man)

Again, my hypothesis is that to the first century koine Greek mind hina + subjunctive conveys the idea that the content of the hina clause is an intention or consequence of the content of the governing clause, and the content of the hina clause is contingent and not certain to occur.

In this case, if we first consider the sentence as if it was positive rather than negative, I am saying that "having a need" was considered by the first century koine Greek speaker here as that the needed thing is not a past or present reality, but a contingent occurrence future of the needing, and whether the need will be met is not certain. The present need (that someone bear witness) generates an intention to have the need met in the future, and the intention may or may not be satisfied. Hence, all the elements of my thesis would be present in this case to explain the use of hoti + subjunctive. Someone bearing witness is a contingent intention or result that the need generates.

In this case, the statement is negative, denying Jesus had such a need.

Your translation: [2:24 But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because he knew all men,] and that/because not a need he was having that his intention was that any [man] should testify concerning the man for he was knowing what was to/for man.

I'd ask you to first clean up this translation for this purpose: so, it's clear what it says and so it doesn't take so much effort to correlate your explanation to the translation.

You'll be explaining, I hope, why the hina clause does not function adjectivally modifying the noun chreian but as a purpose clause?

I'll stop here for now until I better understand how you would actually translate these verses I've responded to already and how they make sense to you.

I'd also like an answer to my post #6.

Thanks!
 

PaulThomson

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#22
With respect, all this has done is choose to interpret hina as "in order that" and say your thesis makes sense, but I'm left reading an English sentence that doesn't make sense as worded.

I find the substantive, subjective interpretation of the hina clause to make sense.
1¶Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2Moreover it is required in stewards, that as intended a man be found faithful.

According to my thesis we could say more succinctly, that hina conveys the sense, with subjunctive following, of either "that as intended" or "that as a result".
 

Burn1986

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#23
John 17:1's 'hina' is reflective of the aorist subjunctive active "so that Son may glorify You," which indicates the possibility of not happening in certain circumstances, which also applies to John 17:2's "so that He may give eternal life [to] all those You have given Him."

While John 17:3's 'hina' reflects on the present subjunctive active "so that they may know You..." which expresses a possibility, wish, or condition that may or may not be true and indicates a continuous action.

So, we can conclude that, if the Son gives eternal life to a one (who meets the condition set by the Father) of all those that the Father gives Him (all those that meet the aforementioned condition) then He glorifies the Father and then, they can continuously know God.

And also, we can deduct from John 6:29's the condition set by the Father, which hina also is reflective of the present subjunctive active "to believe in the Son whom He has sent" indicative of a continuous action that may or may not be true. ( and I read the "work of God asked that we might do" as also the work of God that is of the possibility that we might not do).

So, my question is, why can we not deduct from this that, if it is not true, then it is not continuous, and if it is true then it is, actually, continual?
The first thing is to pray for the Holy Spirit’s help to understand it.
 

PaulThomson

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#24
PaulThomson said:
. Hoti is always followed by indicative verbs
Please explain how you determined this.

Have you examined all of the occurrences of hoti in the New Covenant Scriptures?

PaulThomson said:
2. hina is always followed by subjunctive verbs

Same request and question.
1. I surveyed through the appearances of hoti using the bluevletter Bible. If this conclusion is incorrect, which occurrence did I miss?

2. Same. Although I would change "subjunctive verbs" to "modal verb forms": forms that convey that the verb is somehow contingent and not certain.
 

studier

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#25
PaulThomson said:
. Hoti is always followed by indicative verbs

1. I surveyed through the appearances of hoti using the bluevletter Bible. If this conclusion is incorrect, which occurrence did I miss?

2. Same. Although I would change "subjunctive verbs" to "modal verb forms": forms that convey that the verb is somehow contingent and not certain.
Can you provide a link to what you looked at?
 

studier

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#26
1¶Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2Moreover it is required in stewards, that as intended a man be found faithful.

According to my thesis we could say more succinctly, that hina conveys the sense, with subjunctive following, of either "that as intended" or "that as a result".
So, you're agreeing that hina is substantive and subjective and you've added essentially a parenthetical clarification to insert the intention which I think is how you're still asserting purpose. So, now you have a hybrid. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
 

p_rehbein

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Sep 4, 2013
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#27
TITLE OF OP:

How should we understand John, 17:1 - 3
FROM OP:

I have been spending some time looking through the NT usages of hoti and hina. Since Greenlee’s hypothesis, that the hina + subjunctive can equal a substantive devoid of any sense of consequence or intention, collapsed in the first four of his listed examples, I have arrived at a hypothesis of my own. I think the facts fit my thesis and I haven’t yet seen or heard any countervailing facts, so I invite posters to suggest some contradicting texts if they see any in scripture.


John, Chapter 17:

1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


Complete Jewish Bible

1 After Yeshua had said these things, he looked up toward heaven and said, "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, so that the Son may glorify you --
2 just as you gave him authority over all mankind, so that he might give eternal life to all those whom you have given him.

3 And eternal life is this: to know you, the one true God, and him whom you sent, Yeshua the Messiah.


What does the word "hot" have to do with these scriptures?
Your Title and OP make no sense regarding the various translations of "hot" with the Scriptures you ask about.
 

PaulThomson

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#28
Your translation: [2:24 But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because he knew all men,] and that/because not a need he was having that his intention was that any [man] should testify concerning the man for he was knowing what was to/for man.

I'd ask you to first clean up this translation for this purpose: so, it's clear what it says and so it doesn't take so much effort to correlate your explanation to the translation.

You'll be explaining, I hope, why the hina clause does not function adjectivally modifying the noun chreian but as a purpose clause?
On second thought, this seems to read more smoothly as a result clause rather than a purpose clause.

John 2:24 But Jesus Himself did not entrust Himself to them, because of His knowing all men, and because He did not have need so that as a result [of that need] any should testify about man, for He knew what was in man.
 

PaulThomson

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#29
A few questions to make this as simple as possible:
  • If I'm reading you correctly, every hina + subjunctive is either purpose or result, correct?
I would say that every hina + subjunctive clause has embedded within it an implication of some intention behind the governing clause, whose realisation was uncertain; or some result that could follow the governing clause, whose actualisation was uncertain. I would say that the writer or speaker had some purpose or result in their mind when they used the hina + subjunctive construction.
 

studier

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#31
On second thought, this seems to read more smoothly as a result clause rather than a purpose clause.

John 2:24 But Jesus Himself did not entrust Himself to them, because of His knowing all men, and because He did not have need so that as a result [of that need] any should testify about man, for He knew what was in man.
But all you've done is counter one translation with another to fit your thesis that - as I understand it - posits that hina + subj is only used to denote purpose/intention or result/consequence.

Why do you not see as others see that hina + subj is being used adjectively to modify the noun translated as "need"?

Do you do any diagramming? It's an interesting practice when we start attempting to attach words and phrases to others in order to best determine the mind of the author and understand his argument. It looks to me like you're saying hina+subj is more adverbial modify "have" so the result of not having is being established. But your parenthesis is making result adjectival. As far as I'm taking this at the moment, this is problematic.

I don't personally have a problem with preference in some cases, but preference should be able to be explained.

FWIW, I double-check another set of diagrams to see if there was agreement with the one I previous posted. Here's this other one. They both agree on the adjectival use of hina+subj modifying "need":
 

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studier

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#32
I would say that every hina + subjunctive clause has embedded within it an implication of some intention behind the governing clause, whose realisation was uncertain; or some result that could follow the governing clause, whose actualisation was uncertain. I would say that the writer or speaker had some purpose or result in their mind when they used the hina + subjunctive construction.
So, the answer to my question is, Yes.

So, as we began, we basically throw out scholarship, extensive published research, study and works, and defer to you alone because you have been unable to find any resource that agrees with you?

Again, please don't take this as my being disrespectful to you. It is simple rhetorical disagreement.

For instance, I did diagramming of the Text for a few years and broke down every word and every clause in a few Epistles to get practiced in it in a formal class instruction. For me it was hard work that for one thing taught me the difficulty in interpreting words and phrases and now to attach them for the flow of the argument while remaining in the rules of Greek grammar as they are understood.

Since then, I've gotten lazy and refer to others who were much more gifted than I ever was in this type of work. But I do retain some ability to review them and have an opinion. I've communicated with one of these men and have asked questions on why they diagrammed as they did in specific cases. I don't ever recall the result being that I could override them. But I don't absolutely defer to them without question.

FWIW, in the case we're looking at, I don't personally have reason to disagree with their work.
 

studier

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#33
Thanks!

Interesting writeup. But it doesn't look like it supports what you've said:

On the other hand, hina is always followed by subjunctive verbs,
I'm going to leave it to you to read your sources more precisely. Both resources you've supplied at my request do not agree with you.

A few things I noticed from the reference to Thayer's Greek Lexicon at your linked resource (BTW, Thayer's is one of 10 Greek Lexicons I use routinely in addition to some other references):

1. properly, of the purpose or end;
a. followed by the optative; only twice, and then preceded by the present of a verb of praying or beseeching, where the wish (optatio) expressed by the prayer gave occasion for the use of the optative: Ephesians 1:17 but WH marginal reading subjunctive; Ephesians 3:16 R G; cf. Winers Grammar, 290 (273); Buttmann, 233 (201); and yet in both instances the relic force of the particle is so weakened that it denotes the substance rather than the end of the prayer; see 2 below.

d. By a solecism frequently in the ecclesiastical and Byzantine writings. ἵνα is joined with the indicative present: 1 Corinthians 4:6 (φυσιοῦσθε); Galatians 4:17 (ζηλοῦτε); (cf. Test xii. Patr., test. Gad § 7; the Epistle of Barnabas 6, 5 [ET]; 7, 11 [ET]; Ignatius ad Eph. 4, 2 [ET]; ad Trall. 8, 2 [ET], and other examples in Winers and Alexander Buttmann (1873) as below; but see Hort in WH's Appendix, p. 167{a}, cf., pp. 169^b, 171f); but the indicative is very doubtful in the following passages: (John 4:15 Tr text); John 5:20 (Tdf. θαυμάζετε); John 17:3 T Tr text; Galatians 6:12 T L marginal reading; (1 Thessalonians 4:13 L marginal reading); Titus 2:4 T Tr L marginal reading; 2 Peter 1:10 L; (1 John 5:20 T Tr WH (cf. b. β. above)); Revelation 12:6 (T Tr τρέφουσιν); (Revelation 13:17 WH marginal reading); cf. Winers Grammar, § 41 b. 1 c.; Buttmann, § 139, 39; Meyer on 1 Corinthians 4:6; Wieseler on Galatians 4:17; (Sophocles as above). (In the earlier Greek writings ἵνα is joined with the indicative of the past tenses alone, 'to denote something which would have been, if something else had been done, but now has not come to pass' Hermann ad Vig. p. 847, cf. Klotz ad Dev. ii., 2, p. 630f; Kühner, § 553, 7 ii., 903; (Jelf, § 813; cf. Jebb in the Appendix to Vincent and Dickson's Modern Greek, § 79).)

So, hina is not always followed by a subjunctive. This is one of the problems when we make absolute statements with words like "always." I'd also say that I doubted you looked at every verse that uses hina before you made the "always" statement. I still don't think you have and I will tell you again that I haven't. Its your job to do the work to back up such statements you've made.

I'd also have you note:

2. In later Greek, and especially in Hellenistic writers, the final force of the particle ἵνα is more or less weakened, so that it is frequently used where the earlier Greeks employed the infinitive, yet so that the leading and the dependent sentence have each its own subject. The first extant instance of this use occurs in the Amphictyonic decree in (pseudo-) Demosthenes, p. 279, 8 (i. e. de coron. § 155): πρεσβευσαι πρός Φίλιππον καί ἀξιουν ἵνα βοηθήσῃ (cf. Odyss. 3, 327 λίσσεσθαι... ἵνα νημερτες ἐνισπη (cf. 3, 19)), but it increased greatly in subsequent times; cf. Winers Grammar, § 44, 8; R. 237 (204); (Green 171f; Goodwin § 45 N. 5 b.; Jebb in the Appendix to Vincent and Dickson's Modern Greek, § 55). Accordingly, ἵνα stands with the subjunctive in such a way that it denotes the purport (or object) rather than the purpose of the action expressed by the preceding verb. This occurs

d. after substantives, to which it adds a more exact definition of the thing; after a substantive of time: χρόνον, ἵνα μετανοήσῃ, Revelation 2:21; after ὥρα, John 12:23; John 13:1; John 16:2, 32 (elsewhere ὅτε, John 4:23; John 5:25); in these examples the final force of the particle is still apparent; we also can say time that she should repent (cf. Winers Grammar, 389 (318); Buttmann, 240 (207)); but in other expressions this force has almost disappeared, as in ἐστιν συνήθεια ὑμῖν, ἵνα... ἀπολύσω, John 18:39; after μισθός, 1 Corinthians 9:18.


I need to get my eyes off of the screen for awhile today. I'd ask you to read your resources more closely.

IMO the thesis you're proposing is progressively weakening.
 

studier

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#34
The first thing is to pray for the Holy Spirit’s help to understand it.
I agree.

I've also found that He tends to provide greater help to those He's gifted and prompted to be get trained in certain disciplines. I personally found Him assisting me in some of that training wherein it would give me the oddest headaches that made me think some of my synapse was being rewired!

IOW, I don't even think I could have learned what I was prompted to learn [academically] apart from Him. Nor did I ever have any desire whatsoever to not only go back to school (in my 40's) but also to go through such types of training before I had a relationship with Him. And after the process I came to realize that certain of my [natural] characteristics which made it difficult to function in the world actually proved to be beyond beneficial to me in Christ in Spirit.

As best I can I just try to follow His lead and not to think I'm the model for what He wants of all of His Children as He's placed them in His Body to function.

Whatever He wants me to do to learn from Him, I'm in as best I can be, and I know He enables me where I lack (which is quite a bit to say the least). He prompted me to become a student later in life. Now it's my favorite thing to learn from Him. I see it as a precursor to what we'll be doing for eternity and never will the process be exhausted - the student will never be greater than THE TEACHER.
 

PaulThomson

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#35
IMO the thesis you're proposing is progressively weakening.
You may be correct. ;)

I'll need to keep looking into this issue some more though, before I am persuaded to concede defeat. Thanks though for the time and effort you have invested. I appreciate that. It beats the proof-text sausage with logical fallacy gravy one gets served up by many a fast food purveyor in Christian forums.
 

PaulThomson

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#36
So, the answer to my question is, Yes.

So, as we began, we basically throw out scholarship, extensive published research, study and works, and defer to you alone because you have been unable to find any resource that agrees with you?

Again, please don't take this as my being disrespectful to you. It is simple rhetorical disagreement.

For instance, I did diagramming of the Text for a few years and broke down every word and every clause in a few Epistles to get practiced in it in a formal class instruction. For me it was hard work that for one thing taught me the difficulty in interpreting words and phrases and now to attach them for the flow of the argument while remaining in the rules of Greek grammar as they are understood.

Since then, I've gotten lazy and refer to others who were much more gifted than I ever was in this type of work. But I do retain some ability to review them and have an opinion. I've communicated with one of these men and have asked questions on why they diagrammed as they did in specific cases. I don't ever recall the result being that I could override them. But I don't absolutely defer to them without question.

FWIW, in the case we're looking at, I don't personally have reason to disagree with their work.
No. i'm not throwing out scholarship. I am looking for the evidence upon which the scholars make their claims. Being an attested scholar does not make one's claims true. It is the data that persuades.
 

studier

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#38

PaulThomson

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#39
It's a discipline I recall doing in grade school or in some early era for me (50's to early 60's). We did it extensively in seminary. Again, it forces us to determine the grammatical connections and decide what role words and clauses are playing.
It is interesting. It seems to me that there can be more than one correct way to diagram the same sentence. Is that your experience?
 

studier

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#40
It is interesting. It seems to me that there can be more than one correct way to diagram the same sentence. Is that your experience?
It can be a tough call with some constructions. This is one reason I refer to these tools at times when translating to check myself or just to see what they're doing with something I may be having difficulty committing to. At times I also look at several English translations to see how translators and teams view some of the grammar.

I'm certain most English readers have little clue how many decisions a translator needs to make in dealing with this old Greek grammar. I can tell you that I've attempted to make people aware of such things like the many choices we have available when dealing with something like a simple genitive which most translators simply defer to translating as "of". But, Wallace for example, lists 33 potential translations for a genitive depending on what it is. And the precision in just this can be quite beyond the word "of".

Most at these forum levels will argue with me as if we have all we need translation-wise. It's comfortable to remain with what we've been taught. People still digging into the nuances of the Greek know otherwise.