How does Jesus' suffering on the cross compare to an eternity in Hell?

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Apr 14, 2020
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#61
You have it backwards.

The just result of our sin is eternal fiery separation from God. All have sinned; all deserve death.

God's gracious and merciful offer to us is this: believe in Jesus' identity, life, death, and resurrection, and be counted righteous (completely free of sin). Not all believe.
Seperation from God? But God is everywhere, no?
 
Apr 14, 2020
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#62
The Gospel of John doesn't begin with an 'argument'. It begins with an explanation, drawn from several scriptures, namely Genesis 1 and Proverbs 8, among others. John 1:1, is an expounding upon Genesis 1:1,3,6-7, etc; Proverbs 8:22-36, and he reissues that explanation in 1 John 1:1-3, as in John 1:1-3.

The "son of God" is not being 'proven' by John's statements, but is explaining such verses, like as Zechariah 13:7, and so on. The Son of the Father is already present in Genesis 1, and John chapter 1, explains it. John calls Jesus the "Word", and this also (besides Genesis 1:1,&c "aleph tav") hearkens back to Genesis 3, notice:

Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.​

"the voice of" is the "Word of" the Father, or in other words the person who came from the Father that represents or presents (as ambassador or highest messenger) the Father's will to others.

John 1 is not attempting to prove the Son of God's existence, but accepts it as underlying fact, based upon the previous scriptures that were accepted as cannon and true by the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews themselves.
Sounds like a retcon. Projecting Jesus into Genesis even though he was born long after Moses. I personally see no Jesus in Genesis. I believe you are lying to me.
 
Apr 14, 2020
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#63
then why are you here In a christian group? Shouldn't you be at s Black lives matter rally by now? are you threatened by the power of Jesus Christ and the cross, and are trying to disrupt us and our beliefs?
I'm curious.

I don't suppprt BLM. Where does the presumption that I might support them come from?

I do not feel threatened.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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#64
He suffered so that we MAY live. But does his suffering compare to that of the majority of humans who are destined for eternal torture?
Those two things aren't related. The amount of suffering of the sacrifice isn't as important as the quality of the sacrifice.

Remember, this came during a time when they were sacrificing bulls and goats under the law. Animal sacrifices didn't forgive sins no matter how fat or spotless it was.

The perfect Son of God, sinless in every way, became the sacrifice to do what bulls and goats never could.

Hebrews 10:14 "For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified."

If you study this topic, you would see that the suffering of the sacrifice isn't related to suffering of those who reject the sacrifice of Christ.
 
Apr 14, 2020
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#66
Those two things aren't related. The amount of suffering of the sacrifice isn't as important as the quality of the sacrifice.

Remember, this came during a time when they were sacrificing bulls and goats under the law. Animal sacrifices didn't forgive sins no matter how fat or spotless it was.

The perfect Son of God, sinless in every way, became the sacrifice to do what bulls and goats never could.

Hebrews 10:14 "For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified."

If you study this topic, you would see that the suffering of the sacrifice isn't related to suffering of those who reject the sacrifice of Christ.
His blood pleased God more than that of a lamb or calf would.
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
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#68
Sounds like a retcon. Projecting Jesus into Genesis even though he was born long after Moses. I personally see no Jesus in Genesis. I believe you are lying to me.
You do not know the Hebrew then:

Jesus JEHOVAH [H3444 H3068]

Genesis 49:18 HOT - לישׁועתך קויתי יהוה׃​
Genesis 49:18 HOT Translit. - liyshûät'khä qiûiytiy y'hwäh
Exodus 14:13 HOT - ויאמר משׁה אל־העם אל־תיראו התיצבו וראו את־ישׁועת יהוה אשׁר־יעשׂה לכם היום כי אשׁר ראיתם את־מצרים היום לא תספו לראתם עוד עד־עולם׃​
Exodus 14:13 HOT Translit. - waYomer mosheh el-hääm al-Tiyräû hit'yatz'vû ûr'û et-y'shûat y'hwäh ásher-yaáseh läkhem haYôm Kiy ásher r'iytem et-mitz'rayim haYôm lo tošiyfû lir'otäm ôd ad-ôläm​

The "et" or "את" is the Alpeh Tau, the Alpha Omega of Hebrew, the First and Last letter, the Author and Finisher.

2 Chronicles 20:17 HOT - לא לכם להלחם בזאת התיצבו עמדו וראו את־ישׁועת יהוה עמכם יהודה וירושׁלם אל־תיראו ואל־תחתו מחר צאו לפניהם ויהוה עמכם׃​

2 Chronicles 20:17 HOT Translit. - lo läkhem l'hiLächëm Bäzot hit'yaTZ'vû im'dû ûr'û et-y'shûat y'hwäh iMäkhem y'hûdäh wiyrûshälaim al-Tiyr'û w'al-TëchaTû mächär tz'û lif'nëyhem wayhwäh iMäkhem​

Jonah 2:9 (2:10) HOT - ואני בקול תודה אזבחה־לך אשׁר נדרתי אשׁלמה ישׁועתה ליהוה׃​

Jonah 2:9 HOT Translit. - waániy B'qôl Tôdäh ez'B'chäh-Läkh' ásher nädar'Tiy áshaLëmäh y'shûätäh layhwäh š​

Psalms 119:174 HOT - תאבתי לישׁועתך יהוה ותורתך שׁעשׁעי׃​

Psalms 119:174 HOT Translit. - Täav'Tiy liyshûät'khä y'hwäh w'tôrät'khä shaáshuäy​
Now go back to Genesis 1:1 of the Hebrew, and see what John read.
 
Apr 14, 2020
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#69
You do not know the Hebrew then:

Jesus JEHOVAH [H3444 H3068]

Genesis 49:18 HOT - לישׁועתך קויתי יהוה׃​
Genesis 49:18 HOT Translit. - liyshûät'khä qiûiytiy y'hwäh
Exodus 14:13 HOT - ויאמר משׁה אל־העם אל־תיראו התיצבו וראו את־ישׁועת יהוה אשׁר־יעשׂה לכם היום כי אשׁר ראיתם את־מצרים היום לא תספו לראתם עוד עד־עולם׃​
Exodus 14:13 HOT Translit. - waYomer mosheh el-hääm al-Tiyräû hit'yatz'vû ûr'û et-y'shûat y'hwäh ásher-yaáseh läkhem haYôm Kiy ásher r'iytem et-mitz'rayim haYôm lo tošiyfû lir'otäm ôd ad-ôläm​

The "et" or "את" is the Alpeh Tau, the Alpha Omega of Hebrew, the First and Last letter, the Author and Finisher.

2 Chronicles 20:17 HOT - לא לכם להלחם בזאת התיצבו עמדו וראו את־ישׁועת יהוה עמכם יהודה וירושׁלם אל־תיראו ואל־תחתו מחר צאו לפניהם ויהוה עמכם׃​

2 Chronicles 20:17 HOT Translit. - lo läkhem l'hiLächëm Bäzot hit'yaTZ'vû im'dû ûr'û et-y'shûat y'hwäh iMäkhem y'hûdäh wiyrûshälaim al-Tiyr'û w'al-TëchaTû mächär tz'û lif'nëyhem wayhwäh iMäkhem​

Jonah 2:9 (2:10) HOT - ואני בקול תודה אזבחה־לך אשׁר נדרתי אשׁלמה ישׁועתה ליהוה׃​

Jonah 2:9 HOT Translit. - waániy B'qôl Tôdäh ez'B'chäh-Läkh' ásher nädar'Tiy áshaLëmäh y'shûätäh layhwäh š​

Psalms 119:174 HOT - תאבתי לישׁועתך יהוה ותורתך שׁעשׁעי׃​

Psalms 119:174 HOT Translit. - Täav'Tiy liyshûät'khä y'hwäh w'tôrät'khä shaáshuäy​
Now go back to Genesis 1:1 of the Hebrew, and see what John read.
No, I don't know Hebrew.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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#70
His blood pleased God more than that of a lamb or calf would.
Wrong again. If we are going to have this conversation maybe you need to have some prerequisite knowledge first. See below.

Hebrews 10:5-7
5Therefore, when Christ came into the world, He said:
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
but a body You prepared for Me.
6In burnt offerings and sin offerings
You took no delight.
7Then I said, ‘Here I am, it is written about Me in the scroll:
I have come to do Your will, O God.’”
 

WithinReason

Active member
Feb 21, 2020
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#71
So he isn't everywhere.
God is not the 'god' of Pantheism, or even Panentheism.

As stated, you misunderstand God's Omnipresence, by and through the Holy Ghost/Spirit, see Psalms 139.
 
Apr 14, 2020
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#73
Wrong again. If we are going to have this conversation maybe you need to have some prerequisite knowledge first. See below.

Hebrews 10:5-7
5Therefore, when Christ came into the world, He said:
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
but a body You prepared for Me.
6In burnt offerings and sin offerings
You took no delight.
7Then I said, ‘Here I am, it is written about Me in the scroll:
I have come to do Your will, O God.’”
So his death was unimportant.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#77
Erm I can literally google the definition of faith like anyone else.

You can have faith the person you gave the money to will pay you back. That doesn't mean they will.
The fact they did not return the money is a misplaced faith, you still had faith.

Many people place their faith in the wrong object/person on a daily basis.

However, when you place your faith in Jesus believing what He stated is true, it will not be misplaced because He is True to His word and promises.
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
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#78
He suffered so that we MAY live. But does his suffering compare to that of the majority of humans who are destined for eternal torture?
Suffering "eternal" torment isnt what the majority of christianity believes it is. Jesus did suffer more unjustly than any other person, because what mankind did to him, they were doing to God.
 
Apr 14, 2020
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#79
Suffering "eternal" torment isnt what the majority of christianity believes it is. Jesus did suffer more unjustly than any other person, because what mankind did to him, they were doing to God.
Can you explain that please
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
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#80
Can you explain that please
Sure. Jesus wasnt guilty of anything, but was condemned anyway. Being completely innocent, he is the greatest example of unjust suffering.

As far as "eternal" torment, the suffering is in regard to being tormented by having all of pnes sins exposed, which were committed ("forever", meaning the sum of) in this life. In other words, "forever " doesnt always mean never ending (like God is eternal). It can easily mean the entire life of someone, from birth to death, like this,

he shall be his slave forever. Exo.21:6