How do angels jibe with the Holy Spirit?

[GWH]

Thanks for your specific reference to Zechariah 1:11. What are you asking about this verse? Are you asking whether the angel of the Lord is Jesus here? In verse 9 of that chapter we read, "Then said I, O my lord, what are these? And the angel that talked with me said unto me, I will shew thee what these be. " It seems that Zechariah asked the Lord (that's Jesus). And then the angel answered. So, it seems that the angel is a picture of Jesus here as well, or at least a good probability. Is that what you are asking?

I think you must also be referencing Luke 1:28 where the angel tells Mary she is highly favored. It is not really that Mary has already conceived at that point, most likely, for a couple verses later we read: "And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. "

Luke chapter 2 would have to be a case where Jesus was baby Jesus, but, perhaps at the same time, able to be in angel form - assuming the angel is Jesus in this case.

There are many cases where the angel of the Lord seems a much clearer picture of Jesus than the instances you mention. For example in the account of the burning bush. Also, in several instances in Revelation. For example, the angel that lightens the earth in Rev 18:1, or Michael the archangel who defeats the dragon by the blood of the lamb and by the word of his testimony. Or the angel that binds Satan with a great chain. Or the angel in 1 Thes 4:16 who is called the Lord himself and has the voice of the archangel. And so on. Do you have any more specific questions?

Yes, that is what I asked, and thanks for the answer.

Believing the angel to be Jesus and the baby Jesus at the same time seems problematic, although I am sympathetic with the way you think. (See my next post to Adstar.)

I am not as interested in narrative OT passages or RV passages based on them, because the concept of the Holy Spirit was not NT and their personalities and roles did not compete with the HS as directly.

 

[GWH]

Where does the verse you quoted say Angels are here to Mediate between Man and God??

Hebrews 1:14, "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?"

The Word Mediate is not in the above verse.. Ministering is not the same word as Mediate,,,

Perhaps you are right. I am going off my poor memory which seems to remember learning that in the gnostic religions of that day angels WERE viewed as mediators between man and God. Maybe we can get that clarified by someone or google.

Anyway, part of the reason I was prompted to sponsor this thread is because I am reading the book "Applied Esoterics, A Field Guide to Angels..." by Antonio Simon, an apparent Roman Catholic. Its chapter titles are about why angels exist, what they do, whether they have bodies, how many are there, guardian angels and the fallen angels or demons.

At first I was favorably impressed because he began by advising the reader to be skeptical and prove all things in accordance with 1THS 5:19-21 and his affirmation of orthodox Christology. But then he said that "Catholicism is the only faith that possesses the entirety of divine revelation", and as I read I noticed there was a dearth of Scriptural support for his views, although much of them were reasonable enough.

However, on p.27 he said, "the angels work to impart God's graces to us", which contradicts Christ as the one mediator per 1TM 2:3-5. (He also called Mary the mother of God without crediting Joseph for being the father of God, but that is a topic for a different thread :^) Another problematic statement is "Scripture and holy Tradition make it abundantly clear that..."., and again, "More than just praying to the saints and angels, it is a good practice to develop a devotion to them."

Bingo! I think you can see why I am concerned about competing personalities and have decided not to read the rest of the book.

Over...

 

[birdie]

Yes, that is what I asked, and thanks for the answer.

Believing the angel to be Jesus and the baby Jesus at the same time seems problematic, although I am sympathetic with the way you think. (See my next post to Adstar.)

I am not as interested in narrative OT passages or RV passages based on them, because the concept of the Holy Spirit was not NT and their personalities and roles did not compete with the HS as directly.

Thanks GWH. I see the Bible as one book, both Old and New Testaments, and do not see see the Holy Spirit as necessarily being absent in the Old Testament. However, the trinity notion, which you must agree is a part of the Bible, and I'm sure you would agree is a part of the New Testament, holds that there is a father, a son, and a Holy Spirit. Of course, all are one. But, the son and the Holy Spirit are distinct parts in the one. So, if an angel, for example, the archangel Michael, is a picture of Christ, that would still allow for the Holy Spirit to be a distinct part of the trinity. Another distinct part of the trinity would be the Father. All are one of course, but they are distinct in certain aspects. I find it difficult to divorce any of them from each other generally. When the New Testament says that the daystar arises in our hearts, it is easy to see that Jesus (who is described in parable form as being like the sun, the daystar), is arising in believers' hearts, and yet that must be by the Holy Spirit.

In relation to Adstar's point that angels are not mentioned as mediators, but only as ministers, I would agree - in terms of those angels that are the saints, the true believers. However, when we get to the archangel Michael he overcomes Satan by the blood of the lamb. I see this as being by his own blood, and in that respect he is a mediator. Further, in the Old Testament, we read: "The Angel which redeemed me from all evil ". This again is a mediator. The New Testament mentions that Jesus was made a little lower than the angels, and yet received a more excellent name. Because he went to the cross, he was brought up high. He could mediate.

The Bible has so many ways of describing God, and each way, I think, highlights what is being seen in God at a particular verse. We should not think of all of these ways of describing God and meaning that there are many separate Gods. God is one. But a title will be used in each verse for God depending on what the Bible is portraying of God.

 

[homwardbound]

Yes, I had a similar experience but wonder if it is right to attribute such help to angels instead of to the Comforter. In order to answer this question I would prefer to examine NT doctrinal passages rather than speculate about the meaning of OT historical passages or RV. I am aware of references to either angels or the HS in the NT, but are there any places that describe them working together?

Wonder, can and has and does bring Doubt, and doubt stops people from getting established in Father and Son as Won for us all. I see this given me too see it as have gotten caught up in things too, yet the mercy Father continues in us to see and discern truth over errors in this world still here.
yes, God works all things towards the good for all people, to see God's true love for us all. As I also see that suppressed by people, in belief to themselves to be saved and do not comfort others to be saved by God too, as if they are saved and might not be and is why many people do not hear truth of God, truth is! to me at least
("God just loves us all y'all"),
that is truth beyond understanding to the first birth in flesh and blood, otherwise that cross would not have ever taken place, Instead, Christ could, would have called legions of Angels to fight right along side Peter and Jesus himself. Who would have been left, anyone?
Woe is me to see, Jesus could have done that and did not do that. Yet we have people that do that still today and claim righteousness of God and me remaining, standing in hope to see it is not and all turn to seek to learn from God and see what Phil 3 states under Law from Paul's new life given him to tell us all about this love and mercy to stand in thanksgiving and praise in love and mercy from God given this by Son as risen as proof. for me to let go and be new in the same love and mercy given, even if homeless, being led not by me or anyone else's thought(s) either ever again. Love and mercy is the call for all. to turn to trust and be new in God for them too
thank you

 

[GWH]

Thanks GWH. I see the Bible as one book, both Old and New Testaments, and do not see see the Holy Spirit as necessarily being absent in the Old Testament. However, the trinity notion, which you must agree is a part of the Bible, and I'm sure you would agree is a part of the New Testament, holds that there is a father, a son, and a Holy Spirit. Of course, all are one. But, the son and the Holy Spirit are distinct parts in the one. So, if an angel, for example, the archangel Michael, is a picture of Christ, that would still allow for the Holy Spirit to be a distinct part of the trinity. Another distinct part of the trinity would be the Father. All are one of course, but they are distinct in certain aspects. I find it difficult to divorce any of them from each other generally. When the New Testament says that the daystar arises in our hearts, it is easy to see that Jesus (who is described in parable form as being like the sun, the daystar), is arising in believers' hearts, and yet that must be by the Holy Spirit.

In relation to Adstar's point that angels are not mentioned as mediators, but only as ministers, I would agree - in terms of those angels that are the saints, the true believers. However, when we get to the archangel Michael he overcomes Satan by the blood of the lamb. I see this as being by his own blood, and in that respect he is a mediator. Further, in the Old Testament, we read: "The Angel which redeemed me from all evil ". This again is a mediator. The New Testament mentions that Jesus was made a little lower than the angels, and yet received a more excellent name. Because he went to the cross, he was brought up high. He could mediate.

The Bible has so many ways of describing God, and each way, I think, highlights what is being seen in God at a particular verse. We should not think of all of these ways of describing God and meaning that there are many separate Gods. God is one. But a title will be used in each verse for God depending on what the Bible is portraying of God.

The canonization of the Bible is comparable to making one sausage.

God foreshadowed the NT in the OT, and the Law of Moses prepared the way for the Gospel of Christ.

Yes, there is one God who relates to humanity in three ways.

Yes, interpreting the Bible is like describing an elephant.

My working hypothesis for this thread is that the role and personality described/experienced as angels
during the OT dispensation/era was subsumed by the Holy Spirit (cf. the NT superseding the OT per HB 7:18-10:1)
after He was manifested as recorded in ACTS, and thus 1CR 12:31-14:1 might be applicable to angelology
as well as to glossalia and miracles.

Over...

 

[Edify]

I have difficulty jibing the role of angels with the role of the Holy Spirit, so I would like to explore that question
starting from Hebrews 1:14, "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?"

Does this teaching not conflict with the ministry of the Holy Spirit described in the Gospel of John as our advocate (14:16-17),
the testifier about Jesus (15:26) and guide (16:12-15)?

The Holy Spirit ministers directly to the inner man, for that's where He is, inside.
Angels minister to the physical man to protect & keep him safe. Psalm 34:7 says "The angel of the LORD encamps around those who fear Him, And rescues them."

 

[Pilgrimshope]

You hit upon the main reason I am wondering about angels, because 1TM 2:3-5 teaches that there is only one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.

So, I am wondering whether OT angels are akin to (or functioned in a way similar to) the Mosaic Sacrificial Law:
The Law foreshadowed the Gospel, and the angels foreshadowed the Holy Spirit.

Right . The New Testament says there’s only one mediator between God and man , the man Jesus Christ.

about the Old Testament law was ordained of angels and given into Moses hand for mediation

“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Like you’re saying the law was a foreshadowing of the new testement it had its own mediator ( Moses ) who foreshadowed Jesus the mediator of the new eternal testament Or covenant

“and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:24‬ ‭

Like Moses who first spoke the words of the covenant before all the people and then Moses she’s the blood of that covenant he had mediated under angels ordainment

“And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭24:7-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Moses like the law was a foreshadow of the new testement moses is a foreshadow of Jesus

moses was chosen by the people to go to God listen to him and then come tell the people what he said . This is what the e term mediation means a person between two parties that’s the mediator like Moses in the ot and of course Jesus the mediator of our eternal covenant

 

[birdie]

The canonization of the Bible is comparable to making one sausage.

God foreshadowed the NT in the OT, and the Law of Moses prepared the way for the Gospel of Christ.

Yes, there is one God who relates to humanity in three ways.

Yes, interpreting the Bible is like describing an elephant.

My working hypothesis for this thread is that the role and personality described/experienced as angels
during the OT dispensation/era was subsumed by the Holy Spirit (cf. the NT superseding the OT per HB 7:18-10:1)
after He was manifested as recorded in ACTS, and thus 1CR 12:31-14:1 might be applicable to angelology
as well as to glossalia and miracles.

Over...

Thanks GWH. It seems like we are understanding each other pretty well since you are a good communicator. I see your hypothesis, I think. I agree that the Old Testament provided pictures of Jesus. For example, a high priest was a picture of Christ, but, despite being so, unfortunately, any high priest would die a natural death. Once Christ came, he was a better hope due to his endless life and no more death. However, we should remember that although Christ came, he actually really existed before as well. Before Abraham was, I am. And Jesus Christ the same yesterday today and forever. Once interpreted, the Old Testament is talking about this eternal Christ and that is no different from the New Testament.

You seem to want to say that the angels of the Old Testament are replaced by the Holy Spirit in the New Testament. This makes some sense because God is one. However, angels are spoken of as being men in the Bible, both in the Old (Daniel 9:21) and in the New Testament (Rev 21:17). I think if someone is a man then you would not really say that is the part of the trinity that is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the spirit that indwells. All are one, however, in the trinity, of course.

 

[CS1]

simple 1. angels are created beings by GOD. 2. The Holy Spirit is God and always has been.

 

[birdie]

simple 1. angels are created beings by GOD. 2. The Holy Spirit is God and always has been.

Thanks CS1 for your input. Do you consider Jesus to be a created being?

 

[Johnjunior]

I have difficulty jibing the role of angels with the role of the Holy Spirit, so I would like to explore that question
starting from Hebrews 1:14, "Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?"

Does this teaching not conflict with the ministry of the Holy Spirit described in the Gospel of John as our advocate (14:16-17),
the testifier about Jesus (15:26) and guide (16:12-15)?

No it does not. That Holy Spirit is the comforter and the comforter's name is Jesus. See the issue is that people want the holy spirit to be GOD and the holy spirit is not GOD. It is simply a ministering angel. All angels are ministering spirits...INCLUDING SATAN. They all have to do what GOD tells them to do. They are either an evil spirit (cast out of heaven) or a holy spirit (did not follow satan and still keep GOD's commandments).

 

[bluejean_bible]

Jibe: an insulting remark that is intended to make someone look stupid:
Unlike many other politicians, he refuses to indulge in cheap jibes at other people's expense.


http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/jibe

 

[GWH]

Thanks GWH. It seems like we are understanding each other pretty well since you are a good communicator. I see your hypothesis, I think. I agree that the Old Testament provided pictures of Jesus. For example, a high priest was a picture of Christ, but, despite being so, unfortunately, any high priest would die a natural death. Once Christ came, he was a better hope due to his endless life and no more death. However, we should remember that although Christ came, he actually really existed before as well. Before Abraham was, I am. And Jesus Christ the same yesterday today and forever. Once interpreted, the Old Testament is talking about this eternal Christ and that is no different from the New Testament.

You seem to want to say that the angels of the Old Testament are replaced by the Holy Spirit in the New Testament. This makes some sense because God is one. However, angels are spoken of as being men in the Bible, both in the Old (Daniel 9:21) and in the New Testament (Rev 21:17). I think if someone is a man then you would not really say that is the part of the trinity that is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the spirit that indwells. All are one, however, in the trinity, of course.

Well, let us say that if the OT is interpreted in light of the NT following the examples of Jesus and Paul, then it can be viewed as preparing the way for the Gospel of Christ. The Law of Moses revealed our sinfulness, the Sacrificial System pointed to Christ's atonement, and some of the prophets revealed that God's Plan of Salvation (POS) included the Gentiles.

I want to consider whether we should allow the angels to become less important as the Holy Spirit becomes greater, as John said with regard to Jesus in JN 3:30. IOW, we should wait until heaven to understand how angels fit into God's POS, (along with other problematic passages in the Bible, such as baptism for the dead, the genocide by Joshua, the interpretation of RV, and whether Joseph may be called the Father of God if Mary is His mother). IOW, just as the NT superseded the OT per HB, it is not a matter of replacing the angels but of keeping them in their proper place.

I realize that this concern is not addressed in the NT, but I find hints and implications as I have indicated.

Over...

 

[Dino246]

only a third of Angels fell,

Where is that in Scripture?

 

[Dino246]

Thanks GWH for your question about Hebrews 1:14: "Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? "

Many persons read this and think that this means that angels don't have a physical body, because they are called 'spirits' in this verse. It is my opinion that this is simply the Bible's way of describing true believers. Each believer, in my opinion, is a ministering spirit. Further, each believer ministers to them who shall be heirs of salvation. Believers do this by sharing the gospel in whatever way the spirit leads them. Did you know that the word 'angel' simply means messenger, and that the Bible calls angels men in several places in the Bible?

Such a view would have to account for *every* account of angels in Scripture. It fails for the angels who appeared to Zechariah, to Mary, to Joseph, to Rhoda, and to Paul.

 

[GWH]

simple 1. angels are created beings by GOD. 2. The Holy Spirit is God and always has been.

It is true that Biblical teachings can be stated simply enough for a child to understand,
but when the Bible delves deeper, adults should try to understand per HB 5:11-14.

 

[Cameron143]

Where is that in Scripture?

Some believe that's what is taught in Revelation 12:4.

 

[GWH]

No it does not. That Holy Spirit is the comforter and the comforter's name is Jesus. See the issue is that people want the holy spirit to be GOD and the holy spirit is not GOD. It is simply a ministering angel. All angels are ministering spirits...INCLUDING SATAN. They all have to do what GOD tells them to do. They are either an evil spirit (cast out of heaven) or a holy spirit (did not follow satan and still keep GOD's commandments).

I understand that the HS is the Comforter, so why are ministering angels needed?
(It seems like too many cooks in the kitchen :^)

I also understand that Satan is the evil angel/spirit of evil.

 

[GWH]

Such a view would have to account for *every* account of angels in Scripture. It fails for the angels who appeared to Zechariah, to Mary, to Joseph, to Rhoda, and to Paul.

Yes, I tend to agree. That view makes the matter more confusing, but I also tend to think that the role of messenger has ceased for angels and been replaced by the Holy Spirit per the 1CR 13-14 and HB 7-9 passages I cited somewhere.

 

[CS1]

Thanks CS1 for your input. Do you consider Jesus to be a created being?

nope, God became man, man did not become God. Jesus is the person or the humanity of GOD revealed in the person of Jesus. therefore Jesus is fully man and fully God