Hell's Population Crock

[Willie-T]

I am a very firm believer in "knowing what you read."
IMHO, you can memorize all the Scripture you want, and parrot it back out, verbatim. But if you have not taken that Scripture into your heart, and THEN become able to repeat the intention, concept, and meaning in conversational English (or whatever your language might be) to people sitting around the dinner table... as though you were just having a natural, everyday conversation, then I honestly believe there's a great likelihood that you may not really understand what the Scripture meant in the first place.

 

[Jason0047]

My primary influence and study is always the Bible. Outside of that, there is not one writer or set of writers I can say are influential or even one body of believers on the internet. My study of the Scriptures is to show myself approved unto God and not men (2 Timothy 2:15 KJV). That is who I am aiming to please. It is not about pleasing a people so I can help keep the electric running for a church building. Granted, while there is nothing wrong with Pastors having a church building, I prefer smaller groups for my fellowship. For the underground church will be smaller fellowship groups and not the big slick corporate churches. Anyways, if you are interested in a good list of verses and explanations on the topic of "Conditional Immortality" here at CC, then go to this post here.

 

[john832]

You and I have had this discussion before and if my memory serves me correctly, then you avoided a question that I've asked you in the past, namely this:

If you believe in annihilationism, then why did Jesus say that it would have been good for Judas Iscariot if he had never been born?

IOW, if Judas' final punishment is to simply cease existing, then how is that really any different than having never been born or having never existed in the first place?

Sorry, I really don't remember being asked that question by you. Perhaps you did and I missed it, if that is the case then my apologies. I do try to answer every sincere question asked of me, but alas, I am a fallible human...

Anyhoo, there is a vast difference between never being born and having been born and committing the unpardonable sin...

I have one sister and no brothers. Let's think about this a little bit, my brother (who has never existed) can suffer what kind of punishment? NONE! He has NEVER existed.

Now let's look at the case of one who has committed the unpardonable sin and been consigned to death...

He lives out his life and dies, at the time of the third resurrection, he is brought back to life again and judged...

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

It is determined that his name is not in the Book of Life...

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So he is cast into the Lake of Fire and burned to death...

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

He suffers the mental anguish of the judgment, then the physical pain of being burned to death and finally he is no longer alive. He is now ashes under the feet of the righteous...

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Is this not a gruesome enough death for you? Would you rather he be consigned to horrible pain and suffering for eternity?

Seems odd to me that those who speak of the love of God consider Him a merciless tyrant who will torture the vast majority (think about it, if God is desperately trying to save the world now but the Devil is winning, the vast majority are what most call "unsaved") forever and ever.

In truth, God is merciful even to the wicked. He puts them to death in a horrible manner but it does not last forever and ever. The pain and anguish is over and they exist no longer.

Or would you rather torture them forever and ever?

 

[john832]

I assume, then, that if I posted Luke 14:26, (the verse that says you have to hate your whole family), saying nothing else about it, you would simply agree with it as mindlessly as I posted it? But, I'm pretty sure you don't hate your family.

We all know that anyone can claim to prove anything by just selecting a seemingly "supportive" verse or two, and this is shown by whole denominations having been formed upon THEIR understanding of certain Scriptures which other people do not see that way, at all.

Right here, we have Sabbath keepers, and The Lord's Day keepers, "two or more gathered" keepers, and people who believe we worship anytime, anywhere. And I'm fairly certain you know the "proof" verses all of them stand on.

UH, just for clarification...

Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

The Lord's Day is the Sabbath. Nowhere is the first day of the week ever called the Lord's Day.

We have people that understand Jesus to have meant "soon" to mean soon, (in Matthew 24), and people who swear He meant at least 2,000 years in the future.

And almost any of us could type three pages of things like this...... the point is, a verse simply thrown out there on a forum can mean totally different things to many of the readers, (Virtually, "nothing", really, if you asked the people with opposing views.)

So, very emphatically, "Yes", just typing a verse is a fairly useless exercise if you are hoping that it will be read by others just as you see it. BUT....... if some explanation of what you believe it to mean is also given, then it begins to become more than just words on a screen.

Even Jesus repeatedly said, "Here is the Scripture that you may think means one thing, BUT I tell you, HERE is the meaning I gave it when I had it written."

I think your point is well taken and I believe that I mistakenly read the previous post. My apologies.

 

[john832]

I used to defend ECT (Eternal Concious Torment). I was honest enough with myself that I did not have the answer in how to truly explain God's justice in light of ECT. I accepted ECT back in the day not because Scripture taught me such a thing, but I believed it because that is what the majority of Bible believing English Protestant churches believe. Granted, many Protestant churches have sound doctrine. But that does not mean they are free from error or that they are perfect interpreters on every topic or verse in the Bible, though. The point I am getting at is that is that is very important to follow Scripture. I agree 100%. For there is no such thing as having a private interpretation of the Scriptures. But what we must also realize is that God is not against shutting our brains off, either. Turning off our reason and logic when it comes to the Lord can be dangerous. For God would not want us to follow a Jim Jones (Obviously). But what Abraham sacrificing His only son? Well, you have to realize that Hebrews 11 tells us that Abraham knew that God was going to resurrect his son Isaac. So God was not asking Abraham to forever take the life of his son; And Abraham was a regular communicator with God (So He no doubt confirmed it was indeed the Lord and not some evil spirit telling him to do something wrong). God's morality, goodness, justice, and righteousness can be explained. For no ECT proponent will never be able to justify the concept of torturing people for all eternity for a finite amount of crimes. For if we see somebody today be punished in a cruel way that goes way beyond what the crime fits, we have an inner moral compass that tells us such a thing is wrong.

We are definitely in agreement here.

 

[Jason0047]

My primary influence and study is always the Bible. Outside of that, there is not one writer or set of writers I can say are influential or even one body of believers on the internet. My study of the Scriptures is to show myself approved unto God and not men (2 Timothy 2:15 KJV). That is who I am aiming to please. It is not about pleasing a people so I can help keep the electric running for a church building. Granted, while there is nothing wrong with Pastors having a church building, I prefer smaller groups for my fellowship. For the underground church will be smaller fellowship groups and not the big slick corporate churches. Anyways, if you are interested in a good list of verses and explanations on the topic of "Conditional Immortality" here at CC, then go to this post here.

Granted, I do like some of the writings of Warren W. Wiersbe, but there is much I do not agree with him on. So I would not say he is influential in my way of thinking or anything. My influence is to seek the influence of only the Lord God Almighty (Christ) the liver wihin my heart and life. That is who I seek to be influenced by when I read His Word. For there are many times I pray for the understanding of what Scripture is saying.

 

[Jason0047]

We are definitely in agreement here.

*Gives you a big hug in the Lord*

 

[john832]

Granted, I do like some of the writings of Warren W. Wiersbe, but there is much I do not agree with him on. So I would not say he is influential in my way of thinking or anything. My influence is to seek the influence of only the Lord God Almighty (Christ) the liver wihin my heart and life. That is who I seek to be influenced by when I read His Word. For there are many times I pray for the understanding of what Scripture is saying.

Our study of the Word should quite often be on our knees.

 

[Jason0047]

Our study of the Word should quite often be on our knees.

Sometimes it is a constant praying over a verse, too. This reminds me one time of a verse that folks were declaring was an error in God's Word or that others had a silly explanation for. I kept researching what others had said on the passage but nothing sat right with me with the Spirit. For God was telling me to keep seeking the answer that was Biblical. I did so for about almost a week in prayer. I kept knocking and seeking; Then the Lord finally gave me the answer that put at rest my soul on the issue. It was like a pouring of understanding that came over me. It was so glorious and it made me so happy when I worked hard with the Lord to get the answer.