Hell's Population Clock

[WebersHome]

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Q: Isn't Judaism as useful as Christianity for sinners seeking God's
forgiveness and atonement for sin? Isn't that the whole purpose of Yom
Kippur, the Day of Atonement?

A: Pinning one's hopes on the Day Of Atonement is futile. For one thing:
who's going to perform the ritual seeing as how there is neither a Temple
nor a fully functioning Levitical priesthood in Jerusalem at this time. In point
of fact, neither of those two essential elements of the Day of Atonement
have been in Jerusalem since 70 AD.

There is a special goat involved in Yom Kippur commonly called a
"scapegoat" which Webster's defines as a person who is unfairly blamed for
something that others have done; in other words: a fall guy. But that's does
not accurately define Yom Kippur's goat. It's actually an escape goat; viz: a
fugitive.

You see; the people's sins are symbolically placed upon the goat which is
then allowed to take off instead of sacrificed. That means that the people's
sins go unpunished and are still out there somewhere hanging over their
heads like a sword of Damocles.

Pop Clock Update: 129 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the
figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 7,556,949 new
arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since December 10,
2014.

=================================

 

[WebersHome]

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I know of the Protestant pastor who was asked by Audie Murphy's widow
Pamela to speak at her husband's funeral. Audie Murphy, as you may
already know, was a 32nd degree Scottish Rite Mason and a Shriner; but he
wasn't a Christian.

In amazement, the pastor asked Mrs. Murphy why she chose a Christian to
speak at her husband's funeral. Though Audie himself wasn't a Christian, his
widow was; and she explained that the Hollywood crowd would be there the
day of his funeral, and having hob-nobbed with them during her husband's
acting career, she was fully aware that many of them rarely listened to
something on the afterlife related to Christ's crucifixion. Well . . that day they
did, and were very annoyed because they were expecting the usual sappy,
feel-good platitudes to which pampered celebrities are accustomed.

Some may feel that hell isn't an appropriate topic at a funeral. But I think
that, other than Xmas and Easter, you couldn't pick a better time to bring it
up, especially since Christ said that the majority of the human race is ending
up there. (Luke 13:22-24, Matt 7:13-14, Matt 22:14)

†. Ecc 7:4 . . The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning; but the
heart of fools is in the house of mirth.

†. Ecc 7:2 . . It is better to go to a house of mourning than to go to a house
of gaiety, for death is the destiny of every man; the living should take this
seriously.

As I watched some of the splendor and pomp of President Gerald Ford's
funeral back in January of 2007, I couldn't help but wonder if he was in a
position to really appreciate it; as I suspect people in Hell would certainly no
longer really care anymore whether they were given an unknown pauper's
disposal in a City incinerator, or reverently placed in a grand tomb in the
National Cemetery with world-wide television coverage.

Pop Clock Update: 135 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the
figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 7,908,435 new
arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since December 10,
2014.

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[WebersHome]

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Common Criticism: Your view on atonement as it functions in contemporary
Judaism is clearly skewed by your Christian sources. It does not in the least
represent how present-day Jews regard atonement for sin.

Response: Contemporary Judaism, as the critic calls it, isn't scriptural: it's
rabbinical. I trust we all have enough sense to understand that the only
version of Judaism that matters to God is the original version since it's a
grave offense to tamper with it.

†. Deut 4:2 . .You shall not add anything to what I command you or take
anything away from it, but keep the commandments of the Lord your God
that I enjoin upon you.

†. Deut 5:29-30 . . Be careful, then, to do as the Lord your God has
commanded you. Do not turn aside to the right or to the left: follow only the
path that the Lord your God has enjoined upon you

†. Deut 26:16-18 . .The Lord your God commands you this day to follow
these decrees and laws; carefully observe them with all your heart and with
all your soul.

†. Deut 27:26 . . Cursed be he who will not uphold the terms of this
Teaching and observe them.

†. Num 15:30-31 . . But the person, be he citizen or stranger, who acts
defiantly reviles the Lord; that person shall be cut off from among his
people. Because he has spurned the word of the Lord and violated His
commandment, that person shall be cut off-- he bears his guilt.

†. Jer 11:3-4 . .Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel: Cursed is the man
who does not heed the words of this covenant which I commanded your
forefathers in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, from the
iron furnace, saying "Listen to My voice, and do according to all which I
command you; so you shall be My people, and I will be your God."

Many of the Old Testament prophets raked Yhvh's people over the coals for
their failure to comply with the covenant that their ancestors agreed upon
with God as per Deut 29:9-15. Their failure was so chronic, and so
persistent, that one can only conclude that it's apparently systemic.

People who voice the above criticism probably mean well when they
recommend contemporary Judaism; but by doing so they place themselves
under the curse of Deut 27:26 and now when the propagators of
contemporary Judaism go down, they will go down with them.

Pop Clock Update: 138 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the
figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 8,084,178 new
arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since December 10,
2014.

=================================

 

[skylove7]

Sighs....I'm going to buy you some batteries from the Dollar Store for your clock...so it will run out! I am strongly loved by the Lord,...and I am saved! I do not fear your clock! Why don't you let people be responsible for their own souls.…and stop judging people and concentrate on your own life! Thank you!

 

[Bowhunter2394]

Sighs....I'm going to buy you some batteries from the Dollar Store for your clock...so it will run out! I am strongly loved by the Lord,...and I am saved! I do not fear your clock! Why don't you let people be responsible for their own souls.…and stop judging people and concentrate on your own life! Thank you!

Nobody is Judging anybody, the Reality is that the Gates of Hades are very Busy today.. and who HAS the Keys to those Gates? to open and shut? mmm that would be found in Revelation. INdeed not only these Keys but the Keys to physical death, (Thanatos)

 

[WebersHome]

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I'm going to buy you some batteries from the Dollar Store for your clock . .
so it will run out!

Even after I run out of things to say; the real clock will go right on tallying
souls just like it's always done since before the Flood.

stop judging people

I sympathize with your indignation; but I also hope you appreciate that
Jesus Christ is a man of integrity who would never lie about something so
serious as the afterlife. According to his testimony, as an expert witness in all
matters pertaining to hell and heaven; more people have been going to hell
than not.

†. Luke 13:22-24 . . And he went through the cities and villages, teaching,
and journeying toward Jerusalem. Then said one unto him, master, are there
few that be saved? And he said unto them: Strive to enter in at the strait
gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

†. Matt 7:13-14 . . Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and
broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But
small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find
it.

†. Matt 22:14 . . For many are called, but few are chosen.

Webster's defines "many" as consisting of, or amounting to, a large but
indefinite number; while "few" is defined as consisting of, or amounting to,
only a small number; viz: relative to many then, few is the lesser.

The majority will continue gong to hell long after my "batteries" run out of
power-- protesting is futile.

============================================

 

[Utah]

Sighs....I'm going to buy you some batteries from the Dollar Store for your clock...so it will run out! I am strongly loved by the Lord,...and I am saved! I do not fear your clock! Why don't you let people be responsible for their own souls.…and stop judging people and concentrate on your own life! Thank you!

You have to have the love of God within you in order to share God's love with others. Those here who only spread fear and hellfire lack God's love. Its a textbook example of misery loving company.

 

[WebersHome]

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Those here who only spread fear and hellfire lack God's love. Its a textbook
example of misery loving company.

†. Luke 12:4-5 . . And I say unto you my friends; Be not afraid of them that
kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will
forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear Him, which after He hath killed hath
power to cast into Hell; yea, I say unto you: Fear Him.

†. Mark 9:47-49 . . If your eye causes you to stumble, cast it out; it is better
for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to
be cast into hell, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not
quenched.

Was Christ an example of misery loving company when he spoke those
words? Was he wrong to instill a fear of God within people's hearts? No; I
think he was 110% justified.

For example: when I was working as a professional welder for the US Army
Corps of Engineers, we had weekly and monthly safety meetings wherein we
were shown some grisly photographs of real life industrial accidents
involving burns, chain saws, punctured eyes, explosions, falls, crane
collapses, suffocation, crushing, and the like. Let me tell you something:
those safety meetings got our attention, and really made a sharp distinction
between the fool and the wise.

†. Prv 22:3 . . A prudent person foresees the danger ahead and takes
precautions; the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.

The love of God has given the world fair and adequate notice of an afterlife
doom. Those who don't care about it one way or the other would be well
advised to use what time they have remaining to begin mentally preparing
themselves for the worst when they cross over to the other side.

FYI: Jesus Christ's caution and warning about the fire and worms didn't
reveal anything new. He simply reiterated information that had already been
released by an Old Testament prophet speaking for God roughly 700 years
before Christ was born.

†. Isa 66:22-24 . . All humanity will come to worship me from week to week
and from month to month. And as they go out, they will see the dead bodies
of those who have rebelled against me. For the worms that devour them will
never die, and the fire that burns them will never go out. All who pass by
will view them with utter loathing.

=======================================

 

[skylove7]

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†. Luke 12:4-5 . . And I say unto you my friends; Be not afraid of them that
kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will
forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear Him, which after He hath killed hath
power to cast into Hell; yea, I say unto you: Fear Him.

†. Mark 9:47-49 . . If your eye causes you to stumble, cast it out; it is better
for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to
be cast into hell, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not
quenched.

Was Christ an example of misery loving company when he spoke those
words? Was he wrong to instill a fear of God within people's hearts? No; I
think he was 110% justified.

For example: when I was working as a professional welder for the US Army
Corps of Engineers, we had weekly and monthly safety meetings wherein we
were shown some grisly photographs of real life industrial accidents
involving burns, chain saws, punctured eyes, explosions, falls, crane
collapses, suffocation, crushing, and the like. Let me tell you something:
those safety meetings got our attention, and really made a sharp distinction
between the fool and the wise.

†. Prv 22:3 . . A prudent person foresees the danger ahead and takes
precautions; the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.

The love of God has given the world fair and adequate notice of an afterlife
doom. Those who don't care about it one way or the other would be well
advised to use what time they have remaining to begin mentally preparing
themselves for the worst when they cross over to the other side.

FYI: Jesus Christ's caution and warning about the fire and worms didn't
reveal anything new. He simply reiterated information that had already been
released by an Old Testament prophet speaking for God roughly 700 years
before Christ was born.

†. Isa 66:22-24 . . All humanity will come to worship me from week to week
and from month to month. And as they go out, they will see the dead bodies
of those who have rebelled against me. For the worms that devour them will
never die, and the fire that burns them will never go out. All who pass by
will view them with utter loathing.

=======================================

No....Weber! You misunderstand me here! Yes I do agree souls will go to hell!...What I disagree with...is you take it upon your exsistance, as a man of flesh to derive these so called...'precise mathematical calculations'...that you haven't the power or authority to claim! THAT...is what I find disturbing and unnecessary! I am done here! Good day!

 

[WebersHome]

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†. Deut 27:26 . . Cursed be he who will not uphold the terms of this
Teaching and observe them.

One thing that must be emphasized is that the curse is irrevocable; so it's
very important to come to grips with it; and the sooner the better.

†. Matt 5:18 . . For assuredly, I say to you: till heaven and earth pass away,
not one jot or one tittle will by any means pass from the law till all is
fulfilled.

In other words: whoever deserves that curse will get it.

Pop Clock Update: 141 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the
figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 8,259,921 new
arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since December 10,
2014.

=================================

 

[WebersHome]

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Common Objection: The Old Testament's Yhvh abhors human sacrifices.
Therefore, He couldn't possibly approve of the New Testament's cross; for
example Jer 32:33-35 and Deut 12:31.

Response: Though the Old Testament's Yhvh normally frowns upon
sacrificing one's underage children-- e.g. Lev 18:21, Lev 20:2-5, Deut
12:31, Deut 18:10, cf. 2Kgs 16:3, 2Kgs 17:31, 2Kgs 23:10, 2Kgs 21:6, Ps
106:34, Ezk 20:31, Ezk 23:37, Jer 7:31, Jer 19:4, Jer 32:35 --to my
knowledge He has never openly frowned upon sacrificing a consenting adult.

The primary reason adult human sacrifices are illegal under the terms and
conditions of the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God is
simply because they aren't stipulated; and it's illegal to amend the covenant
to include them. (Deut 4:2, Deut 5:29-30)

But Christ wasn't sacrificed as an old covenant atonement; rather, the new.

†. 1Cor 11:25-26 . . He took the cup after supper, saying: This cup is the
new covenant in my blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance
of me.

The Old Testament predicted human sacrifice; with Yhvh's full approval no less.

†. Isa 53:6 . . Yhvh has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

†. Isa 53:10 . . It was Yhvh's will to crush him, and cause him to suffer. Yhvh
makes his life a guilt offering

Pop Clock Update: 144 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the
figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 8,735,664 new
arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since December 10,
2014.

=================================

 

[Chrysolite]

†. Luke 13:22-24 . . And he went through the cities and villages, teaching,
and journeying toward Jerusalem. Then said one unto him, master, are there
few that be saved? And he said unto them: Strive to enter in at the strait
gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

†. Matt 7:13-14 . . Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and
broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But
small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find
it.

---

The way I understand this is that you need Christ to enter through the narrow gate for he said he is the way. He is the only remedy. If you do it by yourself, you will not be able for you will surely fail. For if you break just one law, you're guilty of all.

I only know of Enoch who pleased God and was taken away. He found the way. I believe he was one of the few.

 

[WebersHome]

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Common Objection: The Bible says that God has never actually desired
sacrifices and offerings. For example:

"For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I
brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings and
sacrifices. But this is what I commanded them, saying: Obey My voice, and I
will be your God, and you will be My people; and you will walk in all the way
which I command you, that it may be well with you." (Jer 7:22-23)

In sacrifice and offering you have not delighted, but you have given me an
open ear. Burnt offering and sin offering you have not required. (Psalm
40:6)

For you do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it; you do not delight in
burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, a broken and a
contrite heart-- these, O God, you will not despise. (Ps 51:16-17)

For I desire mercy and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than
burnt offerings. (Hos 6:6)

Response: The objection's interpretation of those passage effectively
invalidates the entire God-given book of Leviticus; and also makes Christ
look pretty stupid because it was his belief that not one jot nor one tittle of
Israel's covenanted law would pass away until all is fulfilled. (Matt 5:17-19)

The point is: God prefers that men not sin; but rather conduct themselves in
a manner that needs no atonement. In other words: atonements are a
contingency rather than the ideal.

As for Hos 6:6, the mercy that God desires is not His extended to you, but
yours extended to your fellow man; viz: rituals are unacceptable substitutes
for things like kindness, charity, lenience, sympathy, courtesy and/or
compassion.

Ps 51:16-17 requires an explanation because it's a special case. David
penned it as a result of his tryst with Bathsheba and his engineering of the
death of her husband Uriah. God allows no atonements for those two sins:
both are unforgivable death offenses under the terms and conditions of
Israel's covenanted law.

†. Ex 21:13-14 . . If a man schemes and kills another man deliberately, you
shall take him away from my very altar and put him to death.

†. Num 35:31 . . Do not accept a ransom for the life of a murderer, who
deserves to die. He must surely be put to death.

†. Lev 20:10 . . If a man commits adultery with another man's wife-- with
the wife of his neighbor --both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put
to death.

†. Deut 22:22 . . If a man be found lying with a woman married to an
husband, then they shall both of them die-- both the man that lay with the
woman, and the woman --so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.

In other words: If the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God
stipulated sacrifices for premeditated murder and adultery; David would
have offered them.

Pop Clock Update: 147 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the
figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 8,611,407 new
arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since December 10,
2014.

=================================

 

[WebersHome]

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Q: Can you cite an Old Testament example where God approved sacrificing a
consenting adult?

A: Abraham lived a pretty good number of years before Israel's covenanted
law was instituted. Therefore, he wasn't obligated to comply with it because
biblical law doesn't have ex post facto jurisdiction; viz: it isn't retroactive.
(Rom 4:15, Rom 5:13, and Gal 3:17)

So then, Abraham was in a position to offer a human sacrifice without
incurring guilt; which he did.

†. Gen 22:1-2 . . Now it came about after these things, that God tested
Abraham, and said to him: Abraham! And he said: Here I am. And He said:
Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land
of Moriah; and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of
which I will tell you.

Did Abraham slay Isaac? No, but did Abraham offer Isaac? Yes.

†. Gen 22:9 . .Then they came to the place of which God had told him. And
Abraham built an altar there and placed the wood in order; and he bound
Isaac his son and laid him on the altar, upon the wood.

You see, once a gift dedicated to God is placed on an altar, it's a done deal--
whether the offering is dead or alive makes no difference. In point of fact,
the letter to Hebrews credits Abraham with offering his son in obedience to
God's command.

†. Heb 11:17 . . By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac,
and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son

So then, the next question is: was Isaac a consenting adult?

Well; according to Gen 22:6-7, Isaac was old enough to shoulder a load of
wood; so he wasn't a little boy like so many people like to think he was.
Plus, he was mature enough to understand the particulars of a burnt
offering.

†. Gen 22:8b . . And the two of them walked on together.

What do you suppose they talked about on their way up the hill? Well; it's
not too difficult to figure out. I think it was right about then that Abraham
and Isaac took time-out for a heart to heart. And I don't think it was
pleasant. Abraham informed his son of their real purpose there that day and
of what God required. Isaac must have been shocked and terrified. How
could he not be?

It must have taken quite a bit of salesmanship to convince Isaac that taking
his life was the right thing to do. He was much younger and could easily
outrun his dad. So if this was going to work, it would require his son's
whole-hearted consent because there was no one there to assist Abraham in
the event that Isaac chickened out. Besides, Isaac had to agree or the whole
affair would disintegrate into a ritual murder.

The servants were behind, guarding the burro. And God could not interfere
because offerings are worship; and worship is supposed to be voluntary
rather than at the point of a gun. So all in all, the success of this entire
event hinged upon the free will of just two people that day: Abraham and
Isaac; a father and his son.

If you were Abraham, how would you approach Isaac to convince him to let
you slit his throat and incinerate his body to ashes?

Fortunately, Abraham was a man of God who walked with God. So his
influence with Isaac was fully functional and effective. If there was one thing
about his dad that Isaac knew was definitely not artificial, it was his
relationship with Yhvh. If his dad said that God wanted Abraham's boy for a
burnt offering, then by thunder that is what God said. I believe Isaac was
confident his dad would never lie about such a thing. He might lie about
other things, but not about that one especially since Isaac was a son whom
Abraham dearly loved.

Isaac is quite the hero among instructed Jews. To this day; a prayer included
in the additional service for Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish new year, culminates
with these words: "Remember today the Binding Of Isaac with mercy to his
descendants."

Ancient rabbis attested that the final resurrection of the dead would take
place "through the merits of Isaac, who offered himself upon the altar."
(Pesikta deRav Kahana, 32)

In other words: the closing prayer of Rosh Hashanah, and Pesikta deRav
Kahana, 32 assume that Isaac was not only offered; but also consenting;
which indeed he was; no doubt about it.

Q: But God stopped Abraham from cutting his son with the knife. Doesn't
that prove God abhors human sacrifice?

A: See above in regards to the status of offerings placed upon an altar. In other
words: Isaac didn't have to be slain in order to qualify as a valid offering, he
only had to be offered.

Pop Clock Update: 150 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the
figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 8,787,150 new
arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since December 10,
2014.

=================================

 

[dcontroversal]

I think it is an awesome story and points to a deeper truth....The Father before the casting down of the world determined that Christ (his only begotten SON and TRUE heir) would have to lay down his life as a sacrifice to redeem humanity........and Jesus chose to obey his Father's will and WILLINGLY laid down his life......kind of goes to your points about Isaac.......

 

[WebersHome]

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†. Ex 20:5 . . I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of
the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those
who hate Me.

Q: How is that fair? holding children responsible for what their parents do?

A: Ex 20:5-- along with Ex 34:7, Num 14:18, and Deut 5:9 --is often
construed to mean that children are held responsible for their parents' sins;
but that isn't it. What we're looking at here is collateral damage. It is
apparently God's prerogative to get back at people by going after their
posterity and/or the people they govern. For example: Ham's punishment
for humiliating Noah was a curse upon his son Canaan. And during Moses'
face-off with Pharaoh, God moved against the man's firstborn son along with
all those of his subjects. But the capper is the 70,000 Israeli citizens who
went to their deaths through no fault of their own because their king
breached Israel's covenanted law by ordering an illegal census.

There are times when God chooses to judge people by going after not only
themselves; but also the things that pertain to them; including, but not
limited to, their progeny. I don't quite understand the logic of that kind of
justice; but then again: I don't try; I just go along with it; primarily because
it's futile to find fault with God.

Pop Clock Update: 153 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the
figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 8,962,893 new
arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since December 10,
2014.

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[WebersHome]

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Q: Doesn't Acts 2:24-33 teach that Jesus went to hell at his death?

A: According to Acts 2:24-32 he actually went to haides (a.k.a. hades) which
is an ambiguous koiné Greek word for the netherworld-- an afterlife sphere
where everybody goes when they pass on; both the good and the bad and
the young and the old. Although haides can imply fiery suffering in the
afterlife (e.g. Luke 16:23) the specific koiné word for fiery suffering is geena
(gheh'-en-nah) for example Matt 5:22, Matt 5:29-30, Matt 23:15, Matt
23:33, and Luke 12:5

The actual netherworld location to which Christ departed was a pleasant
situation rather than an incinerator.

†. Luke 23:39-43 . . One of the criminals hanging beside him scoffed: So
you're the Messiah, are you? Prove it by saving yourself-- and us, too, while
you're at it! But the other criminal protested: Aren't you afraid of God? Not
even when you're dying? We deserve to die for our evil deeds, but this man
hasn't done anything wrong. Then he said: Jesus, remember me when you
come into your Kingdom. And Jesus replied: I assure you; today you will be
with me in paradise.

The koiné Greek word for "paradise" is paradeisos (par-ad'-i-sos) which
means: a park; which Webster's defines as: 1) a tract of land that often
includes lawns, woodland, and pasture attached to a country house and is
used as a game preserve and for recreation, and/or 2) a piece of ground in
or near a city or town kept for ornament and recreation, and/or 3) an area
maintained in its natural state as a public property.

So from that, I gather that Abraham was in haides same as the rich man at
Luke 16:19-31 only Abraham's accommodations were much better than his.

Pop Clock Update: 156 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the
figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 9,138,636 new
arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since December 10,
2014.

=================================

 

[WebersHome]

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As if hell isn't bad enough, people are in it as their selves; viz: they are
never going to be free from their own personalities-- their phobias, their
hang-ups, their inner conflicts, their memories, their anger, their hostility,
their rivalries, their prejudice, their bias, their angst, their gender issues,
their resentments, their regrets, their disappointments, their bitterness,
their animosity, their passions, and their appetites.

Hell is even more of a hell than you might think because, having missed out
on the regeneration about which Christ spoke at John 3:3-8, people take
who they are right along with them down there. Thus; suicide is not a good
way to relieve depression. Depressed people and/or despondent people, take
that low state of mind right along with them to the other side; and their
sorrow will be even more intensified in fire when they realize that as bad as
things were up here on the surface, their situation up here wasn't nearly as
bad as their situation down below.

You can escape poor health via death, you can escape credit card debt, you
can escape an abusive spouse, you can escape taxes, you can escape a
physical handicap, you can escape pimples, you can escape a ruined
reputation, you can escape a blighted life, you can escape a bully, you can
escape despots and tyrants, you can escape a life of neither promise nor
future, you can escape prison, you can escape grinding poverty, and you can
escape the Mafioso; but nobody can escape themselves.

Pop Clock Update: 159 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the
figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 9,314,379 new
arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since December 10,
2014.

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[WebersHome]

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†. Heb 10:26-28 . . If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have
received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a
fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the
enemies of God.

If you know the Bible, then you're aware that lies are sins. Yet you continue
to lie; don't you? Every time you lie, you commit a deliberate sin because
you know full well that lies are sins. You've probably been taught that sexual
fantasies are sins. Yet you continue to have them don't you? Every time you
indulge in a sexual fantasy, you commit a deliberate sin because you were
taught that sexual fantasies are acts of mental immorality. If you know the
Bible, then you know from Matt 12:36 that thoughtless remarks are sin, yet
you continue to make thoughtless remarks. How about traffic laws? When
you deliberately speed, fail to come to a complete stop at stop signs, run red
lights, pass illegally, and/or J-walk; you are committing deliberate sins
because you know from Rom 13:1-7, and 1Pet 2:13-15 it is a sin to break
traffic laws; yet you continue to break those laws anyway.

Therefore, performance-oriented Christians who believe there is no acquittal
of any kind available for deliberate sins; are going to hell. They have to go
there because it is their belief that there is no acquittal for deliberate
sinners. But I am willing to bet money that none of them who believe that
way really and truly worry about going to hell. I would like to ask them:
Where's your panic? Where's your terror? Where's your anxiety? No, they
don't believe their own beliefs; because if they did, they would feel terror,
anxiety, worry, and panic; because hell is something to be feared; and it is
feared by everybody who truly believes in it.

†. Luke 12:4-5 . . Dear friends, don't be afraid of those who want to kill you.
They can only kill the body; they cannot do any more to you. But I'll tell you
whom to fear. Fear God, who has the power to kill people and then throw
them into hell.

If the beliefs of performance-oriented Christians were true-- that there is no
acquittal available for intentional sins under either the old or the new
covenant --then let me ask them another question: just what advantage (if
any) does your version of Christianity have over Judaism, and what
advantage would the new covenant have over the old one if neither
Christianity nor Judaism offered an acquittal for intentional sins? There
would be no advantage whatsoever; and the Gospel wouldn't be good news,
but rather, it would be old news-- in point of fact, Christianity would be so
redundant as to not even be worth the bother.

If, as some interpret Heb 10:26-28, there is no acquittal of any kind
available for deliberate sin, then David, one of the holiest men in the Bible,
should have gone to hell because he committed adultery and premeditated
murder, knowing full well that both of those acts are sins, and knowing full
well that the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God as per Deut
29:9-15 mandates the death penalty for both offenses (Ex 21:12-14, Lev
20:10) and also provides no absolution whatsoever for scofflaws. (Num
15:30-31)

Performance-oriented Christians believe in a version of Christianity that
nobody can possibly live up to, not even they, because there is not a day
goes by that even performance-oriented Christians themselves commit at
least one act, think at least one thought, or speak at least one word, that they
know in advance is wrong, yet go ahead anyway. I suspect that a fair
number of them are fully aware they have no hope of success; and have
given up and resigned themselves to hell and eternal suffering because it's
just too difficult to go to the other place.

Pop Clock Update: 162 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the
figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 9,490,122 new
arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since December 10,
2014.

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[WebersHome]

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Q: What sane father would condemn His own children, the work of His
creation, to eternal punishment simply because they don't agree with him?

A: While true that the God of Genesis manufactured everybody, that does
not eo ipso make everybody His children; for example just because Eli
Whitney is the father of the cotton gin, and Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak
are the fathers of the Apple II computer doesn't make those machines their
children.

In other words: the God of Genesis is everybody's creator, yes; but He is not
everybody's parent. No; by default, everybody is merely an organic creature
manufactured from dust and members of Adam's family rather than God's.
It's necessary to undergo a special birth in order to get in God's family. All
other claimants are frauds, and have no right whatsoever to say God is their
father.

†. John 1:12-13 . .To all who accepted him, to those who believed in his
name, he gave the right to become children of God-- children not born of
natural descent, nor of human decision, nor of a husband's passion, but born
of God.

Bottom line is: God doesn't condemn His own children to eternal
punishment; but He won't hesitate to condemn yours if they neglect to
follow Jesus' instructions.

†. John 3:6 . . Don't be surprised at my statement that you must be born
again.

Pop Clock Update: 165 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the
figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 9,665,865 new
arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since December 10,
2014.

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