Hell's Population Clock

john832 · Jan 23, 2015

Hey, John.

I have a serious question for you. IOW, I'm not trying to be antagonistic or anything, but I'm just wondering if you've ever considered what I'm about to say or not...

When one considers all of the deception, murder, heartbreak, rape, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., which Satan has inspired since the fall of man, do you HONESTLY believe that a just recompense of the same is to just be "burned to death"?

Remember, the lake of fire was originally prepared for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41) and those who join them there will suffer the same consequences for their sin as Satan and his angels suffer for theirs.

I heard a preacher say the following (I'm paraphrasing) many years ago and it's really stuck with me since then and I'm wondering what you think about the same. He said:

If I called you on the phone and told you that I was in court earlier today and that I had to pay a fine of $100.00 before leaving, then you'd probably say, "What were you there for...a traffic violation or something?" IOW, based upon MY PUNISHMENT, you could pretty much guess THE SEVERITY OF MY CRIME. In this instance, the $100.00 fine would indicate that my offense WAS MINOR. If, however, I called you on the phone and told you that I was in court earlier today and that I was sentenced to 5 consecutive life sentences in prison without any chance of parole, then you'd probably say, "Wow! What did you do...kill a bunch of people or something?" Again, based upon MY PUNISHMENT, you could pretty much guess THE SEVERITY OF MY CRIME. In this instance, the 5 consecutive life sentences in prison without any chance of parole would indicate that my offense WAS MAJOR.

Again, when we consider ALL OF THE SIN WHICH HAS EVER BEEN COMMITTED UNDER INSPIRATION OF SATAN SINCE THE GARDEN OF EDEN, is being "burned to death" a just recompense?

Personally, I'm sick and tired of hearing this whole "It makes God look like a sadistic monster!" nonsense.

Do you want to know what I think THE REAL PROBLEM is? You might at well say "yes" because I'm about to tell you:

Romans chapter 7

[12] Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
[13] Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

I think that THE REAL PROBLEM is that people, many a professing Christian included, are so blind to God's Holiness that they don't see sin as being "EXCEEDING SINFUL", BUT IT IS!

God's Judgment will be just...

Well, let me ask, what sins can a human commit in one lifetime, under the influence of someone else (Satan) that justifies torture and suffering forever?

Satan's fate is different than man's, His fate (and the demons) is eternal suffering.

So, do you think that a man influenced by Satan should be tormented forever and ever in unspeakable suffering by a God that is love?

john832 · Jan 23, 2015

Luke 16; Lazarus and the Rich Man...

Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Let's note here that they can see one another.

Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

The can speak to and hear one another.

Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

There is a barrier between them that cannot be breached.

Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Now let's take these conditions and see how they apply. Let's assume that a Christian woman has a wayward son. He gets robs a gas station and in the process kills the clerk. On the way out the police surround the building and he decides to shoot his way out and is killed by police gunfire. His mother is so overcome by grief she has a heart attack and dies. She goes to heaven and the son obviously goes to hell. Now...

She is in heaven and can see her son burning. She can see the skin being burned off and the muscles and tendons burned black. She can hear his screams and shrieks of unimaginable agony. Remember the barrier? She cannot go to him or render any aid to comfort him, all she can do is watch him suffer in agony for all eternity.

Please tell me which is heaven and which is hell? I can't see any difference.

john832 · Jan 23, 2015

Now also, if one really wants to take this as literal teaching, what is the solution?

Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Moses and the prophets. There is no mention of a Savior here.

dcontroversal · Jan 23, 2015

john832 said:

Luke 16; Lazarus and the Rich Man...

Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Let's note here that they can see one another.

Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

The can speak to and hear one another.

Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

There is a barrier between them that cannot be breached.

Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Now let's take these conditions and see how they apply. Let's assume that a Christian woman has a wayward son. He gets robs a gas station and in the process kills the clerk. On the way out the police surround the building and he decides to shoot his way out and is killed by police gunfire. His mother is so overcome by grief she has a heart attack and dies. She goes to heaven and the son obviously goes to hell. Now...

She is in heaven and can see her son burning. She can see the skin being burned off and the muscles and tendons burned black. She can hear his screams and shrieks of unimaginable agony. Remember the barrier? She cannot go to him or render any aid to comfort him, all she can do is watch him suffer in agony for all eternity.

Please tell me which is heaven and which is hell? I can't see any difference.

Scriptures teach that Abraham's bosom(paradise) was moved to heaven after Christ paid the debt...(Peter) and we know the bible states clearly that Jesus will bring with HIM all of the saints that Have died in Christ as seen by 1st Corinthians 15 as well as numerous other scriptures....so the saints who die go to heaven to wait for the resurrection and the lost go to hell....it is simple, I have always wondered why you have such a difficult time understanding this...<--no offence or attitude meant.....

john832 · Jan 23, 2015

dcontroversal said:

No offence taken but show me the scriptures that show Abraham's bosom is a place and that it was moved.

JesusistheChrist · Jan 23, 2015

john832 said:

Luke 16; Lazarus and the Rich Man...

Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Let's note here that they can see one another.

Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

The can speak to and hear one another.

Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

There is a barrier between them that cannot be breached.

Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Now let's take these conditions and see how they apply. Let's assume that a Christian woman has a wayward son. He gets robs a gas station and in the process kills the clerk. On the way out the police surround the building and he decides to shoot his way out and is killed by police gunfire. His mother is so overcome by grief she has a heart attack and dies. She goes to heaven and the son obviously goes to hell. Now...

She is in heaven and can see her son burning. She can see the skin being burned off and the muscles and tendons burned black. She can hear his screams and shrieks of unimaginable agony. Remember the barrier? She cannot go to him or render any aid to comfort him, all she can do is watch him suffer in agony for all eternity.

Please tell me which is heaven and which is hell? I can't see any difference.

Of course you can't see any difference...because there's error in your example.

Luke chapter 16 describes "hades" and not "gehenna" or "the lake of fire". According to Revelation, "hades" will eventually be thrown into "the lake of fire":

"And death and hell (hades) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." (Revelation 20:14 - parentheses mine)

Furthermore, NOWHERE AND I MEAN NOWHERE does the Bible say or even suggest that Christians are going to spend eternity in heaven. As such, your analogy fails terribly and cannot even properly be responded to beyond what I just said.

john832 · Jan 23, 2015

dcontroversal said:

Scriptures teach that Abraham's bosom(paradise) was moved to heaven after Christ paid the debt...(Peter) and we know the bible states clearly that Jesus will bring with HIM all of the saints that Have died in Christ as seen by 1st Corinthians 15 as well as numerous other scriptures....so the saints who die go to heaven to wait for the resurrection and the lost go to hell....it is simple, I have always wondered why you have such a difficult time understanding this...<--no offence or attitude meant.....

Scripture teaches no one EVER goes to heaven, God comes to the earth.

john832 · Jan 23, 2015

JesusistheChrist said:

Of course you can't see any difference...because there's error in your example.

Luke chapter 16 describes "hades" and not "gehenna" or "the lake of fire". According to Revelation, "hades" will eventually be thrown into "the lake of fire":

"And death and hell (hades) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." (Revelation 20:14 - parentheses mine)

Furthermore, NOWHERE AND I MEAN NOWHERE does the Bible say or even suggest that Christians are going to spend eternity in heaven. As such, your analogy fails terribly and cannot even properly be responded to beyond what I just said.

The Bible teaches that no one EVER goes to heaven and no one burns forever in hell.

john832 · Jan 23, 2015

JesusistheChrist said:

Of course you can't see any difference...because there's error in your example.

Luke chapter 16 describes "hades" and not "gehenna" or "the lake of fire". According to Revelation, "hades" will eventually be thrown into "the lake of fire":

"And death and hell (hades) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." (Revelation 20:14 - parentheses mine)

Furthermore, NOWHERE AND I MEAN NOWHERE does the Bible say or even suggest that Christians are going to spend eternity in heaven. As such, your analogy fails terribly and cannot even properly be responded to beyond what I just said.

Uh, then the parable is really not what it says it is?

JesusistheChrist · Jan 23, 2015

john832 said:

Are you serious?

No offense, but my brain almost fell out of my head when I read that.

Moses and the prophets REPEATEDLY foretold of the Savior:

"And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself." (Luke 24:27)

Again:

Luke chapter 24

[44] And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
[45] Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
[46] And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
[47] And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
[48] And ye are witnesses of these things.

Etc., etc., etc...

JesusistheChrist · Jan 23, 2015

john832 said:

First of all, it's not a parable. Secondly, there's nothing wrong with what it says, but rather something terribly wrong with your present MISunderstanding of the same.

dcontroversal · Jan 23, 2015

john832 said:

Then how does....

1. Jesus bring with him the dead in Christ if they are not in heaven
2. How do the saints ride the horses from heaven with Christ if they are not there with him...

You have heard of deductive reasoning haven't you?

JesusistheChrist · Jan 23, 2015

john832 said:

You're wrong on both points, but, hey, at least you're consistent...

dcontroversal · Jan 23, 2015

john832 said:

Jesus went where when he died?
Jesus preached to the spirits that were captive where<---Luke 16
Jesus led CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE from where to where?<---Peter

sveinen · Jan 23, 2015

john832 said:

there's mention in bible of some thrown as example.

JesusistheChrist · Jan 23, 2015

john832 said:

Following Satan who is murderer from the beginning and the father of lies.

john832 said:

Where will Satan's "eternal suffering" be? This ought to be good...

john832 said:

As I said on one of these threads just the other day, the Bible says that "God is love" and it does not say that "Love is God". There is a world of difference between the two, John. IOW, what multitudes of people do is to begin with their own definition of what "love is" and then to "fashion a god" to match said definition. Contrariwise, what we all should be doing is to learn Who "God is" and then form our definition of what "love" is based upon Who "God is".

This God Who is love wiped out all of humanity except for 8 people in the days of Noah, John...

This God Who is love wiped out, IN HIS WRATH, 603,548 of the original 603,550 Israelite men who were 20 years old and upward who came out of Egypt, John...

This God Who is love regularly sent PESTILENCES, FAMINES, DROUGHTS, INVADING ARMIES, ETC., ETC., ETC. upon different nations, John...

Do you know how many people, professing Christians included, deem all of these TRUTHS to be "unloving"? There's no shortage of them here...right on this very forum...

Again, you apparently have no concept of God's HOLINESS and therefore no concept of His hatred of sin. As such, if I were you, then I'd pray that God opens your eyes to the same. Even righteous men like Daniel and John fell down as dead men before God or an angel and nowadays "God" is just our heavenly buddy...

People really need to wake up.

sveinen · Jan 23, 2015

WebersHome said:

"let's reason together"

Word Eternal...

sveinen · Jan 23, 2015

GracethroughfaithinChrist said:

Have you got enough answers to this question yet?.......

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helping neighbours into watchfulness?
some do pray

sveinen · Jan 23, 2015

Butch5 said:

We've gone over this. The dead are dead, not somewhere part from their body. That idea is from Greek Philosophy. The roots of the mountains are simply the base of the mountains as we see in the LXX.

6 {02:7} to the clefts of the mountains; I went down into the earth, whose bars are the everlasting barriers: yet, O Lord my God, let my ruined life be restored. (Jon 2:6 LXE)

Even the KJV has the bottom of the mountains.

6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God. (Jon 2:6 KJV)

It seems to me that you're taking one translation to an extreme.

If Hades can mean two different locations how does one know which is being spoken of?

It seems to me that your quote of Acts 2 doesn't support your claim unless one already believes there is a place underground called Hades. If Hades is simply the grave it doesn't have to be underground. One can be in a tomb and still be in the grave. It is true that typically a grave is in ground but I doesn't have to be. To say His body was in a tomb on the surface of the earth doesn't mean "He" was somewhere else.

This doesn't answer my original question. If believers go to Hades, the grave, and Hades can mean something else how does one know where the believer is going?

read again of the pale horse

"answer? GO LOVE IN FEAR IF YOU HAVE A MINUTE."

sveinen · Jan 23, 2015

john832 said:

Love Reacts, Love Meets.
"you didn't bother love, He don't bother you. ..you chose evil and nasty? well..."

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