Hardshell & Primitive Baptist "Conditional Time Salvation" Warning

[preacher4truth]

The natural man can not understand spiritual things my friend, and we are not disagreeing with you on this. It is where you have ran off the rails where we have confronted you. You are thinking that just because some Indians believed in a 'Happy Hunting Ground' is proof they were regenerated. They were not. No one is given the Spirit of God and then later converted by the gospel. No one is unsaved after they receive the Spirit. When one is regenerated, that person is saved, and when a person is saved, that person is regenerated. These happen simultaneously my friend.

The Muslims believe they will receive either 70 or 72(I've read both) virgins in heaven if they die a martyr. By using your logic, they're saved, even though they reject Jesus as Messiah, and most hate others who are not of them.

The Egyptians believed in an afterlife and took riches with them to have there. By using your logic, they believed in an afterlife, then by-golly, they're regenerated.

Notice those two afterlives, the Muslim and Egyptian. Both of them think of themselves, and their pleasures. They are afterlives of selfishness and greed.

He has at the least a double standard with 1 Corinthians 2:14. Any hint of believing in a happy hunting ground? *BAM* They're converted! The issue is they can hate the Gospel, think it foolish, hate the God of Scripture, have a hostile mind toward him, showing an unregenerate state, (note Romans 8 &c) and they say they are still regenerate.

But the text says this "...they are foolishness to him." and the "him" it is foolish to is the unregenerate natural man, not someone regenerate.

He, as all other PB's are clearly wrong here.

Then there is this:

The context of 1 Corinthians 2:14 is the things of the Gospel. These things are what it is being rejected by the natural man. The PB has this person rejecting all things spiritual, even if God exists, the afterlife &c. This is where they take the text too far and arrive with regenerate men everywhere on the planet.

The context is back to chapter 1 and it is all about the gospel of eternal salvation. Some of these natural men had their own gods, believed in earning favor, after life. The PB has them converted, and has to, it is their "precious evidence" to their false gospel, yet the text they use proves their error. The PB has this mantra "They believe the Gospel because they're already regenerate!" and "They can not believe the Gospel, cast it off as foolish and they're still regenerate!" and many of those they claim as regenerate do this with the Gospel.

The issue is, as with all sects, they take Scripture out of context. They attempt to refute this with the old tiresome false humility of "God taught me all by my lonesome after years of study." Funny thing how all PB's say this and they all come up with the same false gospel. Quit blaming your false teaching on God. Don't people realize God is going to judge them according to truth?

 

[preacher4truth]

I do not believe that man saves himself eternally because it is by God's sovereign grace.

Nor do we. I've shown you many times your error of saying repentance and faith are works. Scripture shows you to be incorrect there as well.

You are the one that says man can save himself by being obedient to the gospel.

Nope. That's what you teach when the PB got its doctrine into your head. You teach this gospel of yours is clinched by works, correct? Fact, you've taught it on here. You teach it is by works only in order to attempt to make it not mean eternal salvation. This is how you wrest the true meaning, in order to serve you. As shown the PB's have to do this to protect its "anti-means" "gospel.

The funny thing? Scripture denies your claim that a person saved by the Gospel is saved via works. It flat out denies this to be true over and again in Scripture.

You've been in checkmate for a long time, you just cannot see it.

It is the fulfillment of 2 Corinthians 4 my friend. Your eyes are blinded to its truth. You cannot see your error or rejection of the truth and someone has hoodwinked you into believing your false gospel is the true Gospel.

 

[preacher4truth]

Here is one issue: FGC continues to use tactics and statements about us that are plainly untrue. Over and over. We show him where his accusations aren't true, using Scripture, and he still repeats it, saying we believe things we do not believe. He is not dealing in truth here.

We, on the other hand continue to represent exactly what he is teaching, show his error, don't resort to false accusations, show how Scripture refutes him and he continues the above.

And he asserts that he's dealing in truth?

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

I know the Primitive Baptists love John Gill, so here is his commentary on 1 Corinthians 2:14...

1 Corinthians 2:14

But the natural man
Not a babe in Christ, one that is newly born again, for though such have but little knowledge of spiritual things, yet they have a taste, and do relish and desire, and receive the sincere milk of the word, and grow thereby; but an unregenerate man, that has no knowledge at all of such things; not an unregenerate man only, who is openly and notoriously profane, abandoned to sensual lusts and pleasures; though such a man being sensual, and not having the Spirit, must be a natural man; but rather the wise philosopher, the Scribe, the disputer of this world; the rationalist, the man of the highest attainments in nature, in whom reason is wrought up to its highest pitch; the man of the greatest natural parts and abilities, yet without the Spirit and grace of God, mentioned ( 1 Corinthians 1:20 ) and who all along, both in that chapter and in this, quite down to this passage, is had in view: indeed, every man in a state of nature, who is as he was born, whatever may be the inward furniture of his mind, or his outward conduct of life, is but a natural man, and such an one

receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:
not the things relating to the deity, personality, and perfections of the Holy Spirit, though these the natural man knows not, nor receives; nor the things done by him, particularly the operations of his grace on the souls of men in regeneration, concerning which he says, as Nicodemus did, "how can these things be?" but the truths of the Gospel before spoken of; so called, because they are contained in the Scriptures edited by the Spirit of God, are the deep things of God, which he searches into and reveals; and because they are made known by him, who is given and received for that end and purpose, that the saints might know them; and because they are delivered by the preachers of the Gospel, in words which he teacheth; now these the natural man receives not in the love of them, so as to approve of and like them, truly to believe them, cordially embrace them, and heartily be subject to them, profess and obey them, but on the contrary abhors and rejects them:

for they are foolishness unto him;
they are looked upon by him as absurd, and contrary to reason; they do not agree with his taste, he disrelishes and rejects them as things insipid and distasteful; he regards them as the effects of a crazy brain, and the reveries of a distempered head, and are with him the subject of banter and ridicule:

neither can he know them:
as a natural man, and whilst he is such, nor by the help and mere light of nature only; his understanding, which is shut unto them, must be opened by a divine power, and a superior spiritual light must be thrown into it; at most he can only know the literal and grammatical sense of them, or only in the theory, notionally and speculatively, not experimentally, spiritually, and savingly:

because they are spiritually discerned;
in a spiritual manner, by a spiritual light, and under the influence, and by the assistance of the Spirit of God. There must be a natural visive discerning faculty, suited to the object; as there must be a natural visive faculty to see and discern natural things, so there must be a spiritual one, to see, discern, judge, and approve of spiritual things; and which only a spiritual, and not a natural man has.

The lost man, even if he/she is an elect child of God, prior to being saved is among those in this verse. It is only after they have been presented with the gospel that God works, illumines the mind, opens the eyes, ears and heart, in other words, quickens them to life can they discern these spiritual matters. God does not do this by zapping someone who has never read a bible, never been witness with the gospel. God uses means to save His elect, and the means is the gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Let me see here...you are anti-gospel, pro-free grace theology and are now antinomian. Your heresies are over your head now my friend.

According to you, man can not save himself eternally, but he can save himself in time. You are the one who has a works based salvarion my friend.

Two entirely different deliveries. One is for deliverance (salvation) eternally which is by the grace of God and the other deliverance (salvation) is not for an eternal deliverance but a deliverance we receive only from things we face here on earth. And, yes, our deliverance here in time is work based, which is in no way tied to our eternal deliverance.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Here is one issue: FGC continues to use tactics and statements about us that are plainly untrue. Over and over. We show him where his accusations aren't true, using Scripture, and he still repeats it, saying we believe things we do not believe. He is not dealing in truth here.

We, on the other hand continue to represent exactly what he is teaching, show his error, don't resort to false accusations, show how Scripture refutes him and he continues the above.

And he asserts that he's dealing in truth?

That is exactly right, preacher, You keep stating what I believe and helping me put the good news of the gospel out there.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I know the Primitive Baptists love John Gill, so here is his commentary on 1 Corinthians 2:14...

1 Corinthians 2:14

But the natural man
Not a babe in Christ, one that is newly born again, for though such have but little knowledge of spiritual things, yet they have a taste, and do relish and desire, and receive the sincere milk of the word, and grow thereby; but an unregenerate man, that has no knowledge at all of such things; not an unregenerate man only, who is openly and notoriously profane, abandoned to sensual lusts and pleasures; though such a man being sensual, and not having the Spirit, must be a natural man; but rather the wise philosopher, the Scribe, the disputer of this world; the rationalist, the man of the highest attainments in nature, in whom reason is wrought up to its highest pitch; the man of the greatest natural parts and abilities, yet without the Spirit and grace of God, mentioned ( 1 Corinthians 1:20 ) and who all along, both in that chapter and in this, quite down to this passage, is had in view: indeed, every man in a state of nature, who is as he was born, whatever may be the inward furniture of his mind, or his outward conduct of life, is but a natural man, and such an one

receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:
not the things relating to the deity, personality, and perfections of the Holy Spirit, though these the natural man knows not, nor receives; nor the things done by him, particularly the operations of his grace on the souls of men in regeneration, concerning which he says, as Nicodemus did, "how can these things be?" but the truths of the Gospel before spoken of; so called, because they are contained in the Scriptures edited by the Spirit of God, are the deep things of God, which he searches into and reveals; and because they are made known by him, who is given and received for that end and purpose, that the saints might know them; and because they are delivered by the preachers of the Gospel, in words which he teacheth; now these the natural man receives not in the love of them, so as to approve of and like them, truly to believe them, cordially embrace them, and heartily be subject to them, profess and obey them, but on the contrary abhors and rejects them:

for they are foolishness unto him;
they are looked upon by him as absurd, and contrary to reason; they do not agree with his taste, he disrelishes and rejects them as things insipid and distasteful; he regards them as the effects of a crazy brain, and the reveries of a distempered head, and are with him the subject of banter and ridicule:

neither can he know them:
as a natural man, and whilst he is such, nor by the help and mere light of nature only; his understanding, which is shut unto them, must be opened by a divine power, and a superior spiritual light must be thrown into it; at most he can only know the literal and grammatical sense of them, or only in the theory, notionally and speculatively, not experimentally, spiritually, and savingly:

because they are spiritually discerned;
in a spiritual manner, by a spiritual light, and under the influence, and by the assistance of the Spirit of God. There must be a natural visive discerning faculty, suited to the object; as there must be a natural visive faculty to see and discern natural things, so there must be a spiritual one, to see, discern, judge, and approve of spiritual things; and which only a spiritual, and not a natural man has.

The lost man, even if he/she is an elect child of God, prior to being saved is among those in this verse. It is only after they have been presented with the gospel that God works, illumines the mind, opens the eyes, ears and heart, in other words, quickens them to life can they discern these spiritual matters. God does not do this by zapping someone who has never read a bible, never been witness with the gospel. God uses means to save His elect, and the means is the gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

As I have stated before, I do not reference other man's writings other than the inspired writers of the KJV of the bible.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

What verse or verses state this as biblical truth my friend? Offer them up and let us debate them.

That is what we have been doing, I guess the Holy Ghost just has not revealed it to you.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

So, if a man is obedient to the gospel he saves him save, but if he is disobedient to the gospel, he is lost. Where else does this leave you and your false gospel my friend? You have painted yourself in a corner.

Obedience and disobedient to the gospel has nothing to do with eternal deliverance. Obedience to the gospel can deliver you from being chastened by God while you live here on earth, but is not the cause of your eternal salvation, that is only by the grace of God.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The natural man can not understand spiritual things my friend, and we are not disagreeing with you on this. It is where you have ran off the rails where we have confronted you. You are thinking that just because some Indians believed in a 'Happy Hunting Ground' is proof they were regenerated. They were not. No one is given the Spirit of God and then later converted by the gospel. No one is unsaved after they receive the Spirit. When one is regenerated, that person is saved, and when a person is saved, that person is regenerated. These happen simultaneously my friend.

The Muslims believe they will receive either 70 or 72(I've read both) virgins in heaven if they die a martyr. By using your logic, they're saved, even though they reject Jesus as Messiah, and most hate others who are not of them.

The Egyptians believed in an afterlife and took riches with them to have there. By using your logic, they believed in an afterlife, then by-golly, they're regenerated.

Notice those two afterlives, the Muslim and Egyptian. Both of them think of themselves, and their pleasures. They are afterlives of selfishness and greed.

Being born again and being converted are two separate events. Conversion always follows being born again. Paul was regenerated and worshiped God and persecuted the church, in all good conscience and was converted on the road to Damascus. The men in acts that were "pricked" in their heart (conscience) was evidence that they were regenerated. The natural man has no conscience of wrong doing. God does the pricking. Paul was kicking against the pricks. On the other side of the coin, the men that stoned Steven were "cut" to the heart. and their reaction was anger, whereas the men in acts reaction was to ask "what must we do".

 

[NayborBear]

"Oh contraire" back at you.

Wow, you've missed the point entirely bro! Obviously you don't know what we're discussing or you're thoroughly confused, or both?

What makes you think that I don't believe God's elect are out there? This doesn't mean they are now regenerate. The Scriptures you've provided don't back up conditional time salvation or FGC's teachings. Luke 9:49-50 is almost always misapplied, and you're doing this yourself.

The point is that the elect are not regenerate prior to hearing the Gospel. He stated the Gospel is conveying deliverance through the lack of knowledge. Like in: they don't know they're born from above already, but we let them know this by telling them the "gospel." That's what you're agreeing with whether you know it or not.

It's all summed up in one word: Baloney.

So you're agreeing with that nonsense, or you're not smelling what you just stepped in?

(due to the holiday, I was absent for a few)

"Conditional Time Salvation?" Be still, my aching sides!

Have any more "bull-loney?" Or, am I going to have to "spatch-cock" ya?

I have to admit, BOTH of these terms, are meaningless to me!

I'm afraid, in your questings for intellectual (natural/carnal man) integrity? Much like what Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Being born again of the Spirit, or "elect", BEFORE one is born from one's mother, or flesh, and all that entails, is the "message" I am trying to convey.

What I "see", in that which you are saying, as well as others? Is that y'all are limiting God's "Placing, or Predestining!" In other words? (God, in a box) Teaching that God DOESN'T KNOW the WHERE, nor WHEN, nor CARE, where His elect are! Am I "smelling your coffee" correctly here?

 

[Angela53510]

This generation is more wicked than any other generation in history, worse than Sodom & Gomorrah, they are forever hearing but never understanding, forever seeing but never perceiving. Jeremiah was talking about you and me and all these teachers that we have heaped on ourselves more than he was talking to them (past generation)- how then was it a prophesy? aren't you aware that all these prophesies are being fulfilled in the church era?

Then why is God calling us from Babylon and we are not even near Syria?

Rev 18:4 Then I heard another voice from heaven say: “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins or contract any of her plagues.

Yes, forever hearing but never understanding.

Wow! You sure don't have a clue how to read the Bible! I suggest you read Gordon Fee's "How to read the Bible for all it's Worth!" He is a Greek scholar, but this book is simple enough for even you to read.

He goes through basic hermeneutics, genre and explains them using many Bible examples!

Oh wait! You don't read any books except the Bible, Left Behind leader guides and Schofield notes in your Bible, right?

Here's a clue! Read a wide range of books on eschatology, then draw your own conclusions. You may find you have been deceived by these Dispensationalists!

As for our culture being the worst? Guess again! How about all the emperor cults with no laws, and rape/pillage/burn being the standard? Like the Mongols, the Vikings, the Canaanites, Babylonian etc, etc. Maybe read something about history. Then read about biblical anthropology, and how we are all sinners, saved by grace. In fact, western culture is highly moral, compared to many pagan societies!

 

[preacher4truth]

The ad nauseam "I follow no man" disease has caused serious problems in the church. It is blatant arrogance and completely unbiblical.

 

[Hevosmies]

I know the Primitive Baptists love John Gill, so here is his commentary on 1 Corinthians 2:14...

1 Corinthians 2:14

But the natural man
Not a babe in Christ, one that is newly born again, for though such have but little knowledge of spiritual things, yet they have a taste, and do relish and desire, and receive the sincere milk of the word, and grow thereby; but an unregenerate man, that has no knowledge at all of such things; not an unregenerate man only, who is openly and notoriously profane, abandoned to sensual lusts and pleasures; though such a man being sensual, and not having the Spirit, must be a natural man; but rather the wise philosopher, the Scribe, the disputer of this world; the rationalist, the man of the highest attainments in nature, in whom reason is wrought up to its highest pitch; the man of the greatest natural parts and abilities, yet without the Spirit and grace of God, mentioned ( 1 Corinthians 1:20 ) and who all along, both in that chapter and in this, quite down to this passage, is had in view: indeed, every man in a state of nature, who is as he was born, whatever may be the inward furniture of his mind, or his outward conduct of life, is but a natural man, and such an one

receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:
not the things relating to the deity, personality, and perfections of the Holy Spirit, though these the natural man knows not, nor receives; nor the things done by him, particularly the operations of his grace on the souls of men in regeneration, concerning which he says, as Nicodemus did, "how can these things be?" but the truths of the Gospel before spoken of; so called, because they are contained in the Scriptures edited by the Spirit of God, are the deep things of God, which he searches into and reveals; and because they are made known by him, who is given and received for that end and purpose, that the saints might know them; and because they are delivered by the preachers of the Gospel, in words which he teacheth; now these the natural man receives not in the love of them, so as to approve of and like them, truly to believe them, cordially embrace them, and heartily be subject to them, profess and obey them, but on the contrary abhors and rejects them:

for they are foolishness unto him;
they are looked upon by him as absurd, and contrary to reason; they do not agree with his taste, he disrelishes and rejects them as things insipid and distasteful; he regards them as the effects of a crazy brain, and the reveries of a distempered head, and are with him the subject of banter and ridicule:

neither can he know them:
as a natural man, and whilst he is such, nor by the help and mere light of nature only; his understanding, which is shut unto them, must be opened by a divine power, and a superior spiritual light must be thrown into it; at most he can only know the literal and grammatical sense of them, or only in the theory, notionally and speculatively, not experimentally, spiritually, and savingly:

because they are spiritually discerned;
in a spiritual manner, by a spiritual light, and under the influence, and by the assistance of the Spirit of God. There must be a natural visive discerning faculty, suited to the object; as there must be a natural visive faculty to see and discern natural things, so there must be a spiritual one, to see, discern, judge, and approve of spiritual things; and which only a spiritual, and not a natural man has.

The lost man, even if he/she is an elect child of God, prior to being saved is among those in this verse. It is only after they have been presented with the gospel that God works, illumines the mind, opens the eyes, ears and heart, in other words, quickens them to life can they discern these spiritual matters. God does not do this by zapping someone who has never read a bible, never been witness with the gospel. God uses means to save His elect, and the means is the gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

I also enjoy John Gill's commentary. Of the ones available on Biblehub, his and Joseph Benson's are my favorites

 

[preacher4truth]

Gill is the only commentator where you can get comments on every verse.

Where the Gospels say the same things and overlap sometimes, you'll find he comments on it in that book but where it is mentioned elsewhere in another Gospel it says see Gill in Mark or what have you.

 

[Laish]

I also enjoy John Gill's commentary. Of the ones available on Biblehub, his and Joseph Benson's are my favorites

Yes John Gill cool . It’s also available on e-Sword or if you have a iPad or iPhone it’s available for free as a standalone app. I like how Gill comments on every verse.
Blessings
Bill

 

[Hevosmies]

Yes John Gill cool . It’s also available on e-Sword or if you have a iPad or iPhone it’s available for free as a standalone app. I like how Gill comments on every verse.
Blessings
Bill

Going back on these commentaries makes me think if I am doing the same mistake as they are, which is, I look around and interpret the Bible based on what I see.

I feel like most of the guys from the protestant reformation and the couple centuries following it were obsessed with the "romanists" "papists" "papacy" to the point where everything in the book of revelation has to do with catholicism. Some take it to absurd levels where they apply OT texts about Israel to "gospel church" being persecuted by "the roman church". Oy vey!

Am I doing the same mistake?

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

As I have stated before, I do not reference other man's writings other than the inspired writers of the KJV of the bible.

Sigh, the writers of the KJV were not inspired my friend. They took copies of copies, of copies of copies of the original manuscripts(those were inspired, the originals, all others are copies of those inspired manuscripts) and used them to translate into English.

With your attitude, why go to church. Every time someone preaches, they give a commentary of the Bible in their sermons. Why listen to them when you have such a flippant attitude?

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Being born again and being converted are two separate events. Conversion always follows being born again. Paul was regenerated and worshiped God and persecuted the church, in all good conscience and was converted on the road to Damascus. The men in acts that were "pricked" in their heart (conscience) was evidence that they were regenerated. The natural man has no conscience of wrong doing. God does the pricking. Paul was kicking against the pricks. On the other side of the coin, the men that stoned Steven were "cut" to the heart. and their reaction was anger, whereas the men in acts reaction was to ask "what must we do".

No my friend. They happen simultaneously.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

The ad nauseam "I follow no man" disease has caused serious problems in the church. It is blatant arrogance and completely unbiblical.

Well, as a friend of mine told me, preachers are a type of commentary, as when they preach, they explain what that verse, or passage of verses, are really saying. @ForestGreenCook needs to stay home with that flippant attitude of his. His ‘me, the Spirit, and my KJV is all I need’ flippant attitude has crippled many many churches.