Hades / The Grave

[RevelationsMc]

We believe the word. And we don’t lean on our own understanding. Amen

 

[Magenta]

@Deade Well, you cannot prove that. Half of translations render it "tell no one what you have seen".

3705. horama ► Strong's Concordance

horama: that which is seen

Original Word: ὅραμα, ατος, τό

Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter

Transliteration: horama

Phonetic Spelling: (hor'-am-ah)

Definition: that which is seen

Usage: a spectacle, vision, that which is seen.

HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 3705 hórama (a neuter noun derived from 3708
horáō, "to see, spiritual and mentally") – a vision (spiritual seeing),
focusing on the impact it has on the one beholding the vision (spiritual seeing). See 3708 (horaō).

 

[RevelationsMc]

We all will find out. Amen. 😀. But today we believe everything the Word says. Not some things. All things

 

[SoulWeaver]

3705. horama ► Strong's Concordance

horama: that which is seen

Original Word: ὅραμα, ατος, τό

Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter

Transliteration: horama

Phonetic Spelling: (hor'-am-ah)

Definition: that which is seen

Usage: a spectacle, vision, that which is seen.

HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 3705 hórama (a neuter noun derived from 3708
horáō, "to see, spiritual and mentally") – a vision (spiritual seeing),
focusing on the impact it has on the one beholding the vision (spiritual seeing). See 3708 (horaō).

Hmm ok. Still it's pretty cool what they witnessed. Thanks for not mauling me with something for expressing free thought.

 

[Poinsetta]

Then there’s Joshua with his long mane hair....yes i’ve been growing mine. I keep seeing Moses jump up in a few parts of my bible and how he dies and what he did before and also said before his death. This looks like peaking Revelation.

 

[RevelationsMc]

Guess it’s a matter of who y’all will believe. Will you call God a liar ? He said he is not the God of the dead. But he is the God of the living. Lol

 

[RevelationsMc]

If God says he is the God of the living then. There are no sleeping or dead ppl in heaven. Lol. They all alive 🤣🤣🤣🤣

 

[RevelationsMc]

Luke 20:38 KJV
[38] For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

 

[RevelationsMc]

Anyone has a rebuttal for this one ???😀🤣🤣🤣 and yes I’m a new member

 

[mailmandan]

Since this thread is already headed in this direction (as it should be, considering the OP), here are a few of the Biblical reasons that explain why the church (all of it, all of the churches/denominations within the pale of Christian orthodoxy, that is) has always taught that the sleep of the soul (during the Intermediate State) is heresy.

1 Corinthians 11:29 - For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world. Paul knows that the judgment of God can take on the form of physical illness and even physical death. The word "sleep" when referring to death, refers to the physical death of believers, not spiritual death or soul sleep (John 11:11-12; Acts 7:60; 1 Corinthians 15:6,18,20,51; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15; 2 Peter 3:4).

 

[RevelationsMc]

Perfect

 

[garee]

Since this thread is already headed in this direction (as it should be, considering the OP), here are a few of the Biblical reasons that explain why the church (all of it, all of the churches/denominations within the pale of Christian orthodoxy, that is) has always taught that the sleep of the soul (during the Intermediate State) is heresy.

Matthew 17​

1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves.​

2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.​

3 And behold, Moses and appeared to them, talking with Him.​

4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”​

5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!”​

6 When the disciples heard this, they fell face down to the ground and were terrified.​

7 And Jesus came to them and touched them and said, “Get up, and do not be afraid.”​

8 And lifting up their eyes, they saw no one except Jesus Himself alone.​

​

2 Corinthians 5​

6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord​

7 for we walk by faith, not by sight—​

8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.​

9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.​

​

Philippians 1​

21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.​

22 But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.​

23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;​

24 yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.​

​

Revelation 6​

9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;​

10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”​

Here are a few things to consider. If we/our souls become lifeless like our bodies are in death, then:

1. Why was an exception made for Moses? (Elijah never died as you may remember, rather, has was taken to Heaven directly on a chariot of fire)​

​

2. What does the Apostle mean when he speaks of being "absent from the body" and "at home with the Lord"?​

​

3. How could we possibly make "pleasing God" our "ambition" in death if our souls are not alive/conscious after we die?​

​

4. How could the Apostle Paul think that dying (rather than continuing on in fruitful service here, to both God and the church) could be some kind of "gain", or that an unconscious death of the soul could in any way be "very much better" than living on would be?​

​

5. Why is an exception made for the souls of the martyrs in Heaven? If they remained with their bodies in the ground, how are they found in Heaven crying out in a loud voice to the Lord?​

Thanks!

~Deut

Luke 16​

19 There was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.​

20 And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,​

21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.​

22 Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.​

23 In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.​

24 And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.​

25 But Abraham said, Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.​

26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.​

27 And he said, Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house—​

28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.​

29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.​

30 But he said, No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!​

31 But he said to him, If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.​

.

I would offer. Dying is taking away ones breath of life. Life does not come from the flesh But does from the Spirit. God is Spirit. Flesh is flesh

Psalm 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, "they die", and return to their dust.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

When God said you will surly die it was the whole body soul and spirit that were corrupted .Not suspended animation . It was not part of you will die and the part you will suffer forever to show that God is merciless according to some..

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Genesisis2:17

Death is dying breathing is living.

Moses and Elijah were used to represent the law and the prophets in that parable. That was shown in a vision not a reincarnation

Their flesh and blood had long returned to the earth as food for worms and in the same twinkling the temporal spirit return to the father of spirits, as dead asleep .

There is no need to make it about dead flesh and blood flesh that could never enter the new order .What we will be no one knows other that not corrupted flesh and blood, not Jew or gentile, male nor female. looking nothing like there bodies of death
The parables in Luke is part of a series of parable all having the same lesson .If they do not hear the law and the prophets typified by Moses and Elijah (sola scriptura) then neither will they believe the gospel.

Its not like in the middle of a series of parables. The Holy Spirit sneaks in a literal understanding to throw the disciples off. They already understood without parable Christ spoke not, hiding the spiritual understanding ( the gospel not hiding the literal understanding .

 

[garee]

Here are a few things to consider. If we/our souls become lifeless like our bodies are in death, then:

When we are given a new eternal spirit and new heart it comes with a resurrected soul as means of communing with God.​

​

1. Why was an exception made for Moses? (Elijah never died as you may remember, rather, has was taken to Heaven directly on a chariot of fire)

​

All believer that receive a new born again spirit never die. To be absent of the body is to be present with God same place Elijah is.​

​

A parable in a vision was used to indicate he was a believer. His flesh and blood has long returned to the dust.​

​

2. What does the Apostle mean when he speaks of being "absent from the body" and "at home with the Lord"?

​

I would offer it means the ressurection had occurred as promised .Tens of thousands upon thousand saints entered into the new heavenly Jerusalem "at home with the Lord"?​

​

3. How could we possibly make "pleasing God" our "ambition" in death if our souls are not alive/conscious after we die?

​

Dead asleep. Waiting for the last day alarm clock . . . Rise and shine with the glory of God get dressed in your new incorruptible body.(the righteousness of Christ)​

​

4. How could the Apostle Paul think that dying (rather than continuing on in fruitful service here, to both God and the church) could be some kind of "gain", or that an unconscious death of the soul could in any way be "very much better" than living on would be?

​

It would seem the thought he did have coming from God directed him toward rest looking forward to the confidence working in him . . . yoked with Christ.​

​

Phil.1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:​

​

Paul saying the same confidence working in Timothy worked in him

Phil.1:23-25 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you. And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;

Not teaching that his fruitful work had a lower position than rest. Both work and worship are needed. Like Mary and Martha

​

5. Why is an exception made for the souls of the martyrs in Heaven? If they remained with their bodies in the ground, how are they found in Heaven crying out in a loud voice to the Lord?

​

Abels voice using blood to represent his new born again spirit cries out to be clothed with there incorruptible bodies as His eternal bride. . One continue dream in the works of a twinkling of the eye..​

​

I would offer all Christian are martyred for the faith dying as witnesses. Abel the first. .​

​

The word martyr with no other meaning added. . . . martyr (n.) "one who bears testimony to faith,"​

​

Not how or why . Extra meaning has been added destroying the word. turning it into a way of exaulting the flesh (hall of fame) .Instant "patron saint" for a Catholic .​

 

[RevelationsMc]

Phil.1:23-25 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you. And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;

 

[PennEd]

There are just a multitude of Scriptural problems with this idea of "soul sleep".

Some have already been listed by people. Here is a biggie: 1 Samuel 28. King Saul consults a medium.

Those that try and make this "soul sleep" idea work have to say that this wasn't really Samuel, but the text, and accuracy of Samuel's speech destroy that notion. My thoughts in red.

11 Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?”

And he said, “Bring up Samuel for me.”

12 When the woman saw Samuel, SHE CRIED OUT WITH A LOUD VOICE. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!”
This woman was a witch. She regularly consulted "the dead". She was extremely terrified because THIS time it wasn't a false demonic spirit that she saw, but the real deal.

13 And the king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What did you see?”

And the woman said to Saul, “I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.”

14 So he said to her, “What is his form?”

And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down.

15 Now Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” sheol/hades is always referred to as down. OT Saints all went DOWN to hades before Jesus' death and resurrection.

And Saul answered, “I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do.”

16 Then Samuel said: “So why do you ask me, seeing the Lord has departed from you and has become your enemy? 17 And the Lord has done for [b]Himself as He spoke by me. For the Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. 18 Because you did not obey the voice of the Lord nor execute His fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore the Lord has done this thing to you this day. 19 Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.”

AT LEAST 4 TIMES THE BIBLICAL TEXT ITSELF SAYS THAT IT WAS SAMUEL, NOT A SPIRIT IMITATING SAMUEL.
ALSO, EVERYTHING SAMUEL SAID WAS EITHER TRUE IN THE PAST OR CAME TRUE THE NEXT DAY.

The only question was when Samuel said the next day Saul would be with him, did that mean sheol/hades in general, and the bad side, or did it mean he would be with Samuel in Abraham's bosom

But either way unless you bastardize the ACTUAL TEXT, this totally destroys this notion of "soul sleep".

 

[Nehemiah6]

If God says he is the God of the living then. There are no sleeping or dead ppl in heaven. Lol. They all alive 🤣🤣🤣🤣

Exactly. Awake and alive, hence called "witnesses" in Hebrews 12. Also, it should be noted that after His resurrection Christ took all the OT saints from Hades (Abraham's bosom) to the New Jerusalem (Eph 4). And since then all the NT saints who have passed on are also there with God, Christ, and the angels. Hebrews 12:22-24.

 

[Nehemiah6]

"The dead know nothing" is what we are told in Ecclesiastes 9:5

Which is to be interpreted in light of all of Scripture, particularly the New Testament. It is interesting that the Soul Sleep cults quote this but forget to quote all the other Scriptures through which this must be understood.

Until the time that Christ Himself went to Sheol/Hades and *preached* to the spirits in prison, the souls and spirits of both the righteous and the unrighteous dead remained in Hades without any knowledge of what was transpiring on earth. The KJV translators should never have translated Sheol as *the grave*, since Sheol/Hades is in the heart of the earth.

 

[garee]

What are you going on about, the transfiguration was simply a vision. Like a dream, it is not real. Matt. 17:9 "And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead." View attachment 203147

Yes, tell no man the vision as one of the manners of prophecy you see. Jesus Coming down from a mountain in that parable that was used to represent all the kingdoms of the world.

A witness of the father not seen working with the Son . A bright light illuminating the two witnesses the law and the prophets. Moses to represent the letter of the law and Elias the Spirit or power of the law. The one Spirit of faith. .John the Baptist was sent in the Spirit of Elias the Holy Spirit of God

Peter the denier as an example of faithlessness tried to make it into a advantage to "glory in the flesh" (no faith) as he did with John when he started a rumor (oral tradition) as lies that John would not die. Same with the flesh of Christ rebuked Jesus saying his flesh will not die.

Peter being deceived saw the vision as real flesh and blood. Missing the point of the whole parable "communication with the father and Son working as one God". Not gods in the likeness of men (Elias Moses)

Mathew 17:1-4 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

Out of darkness the voice from heaven our God whose name is jealous rebuked them and reminded them to walk by faith according to his two witness (sola scriptura) . the law and the prophets. or Moses and the prophets same thing.

Mathew 17:5-6 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.

 

[garee]

There are just a multitude of Scriptural problems with this idea of "soul sleep".

Some have already been listed by people. Here is a biggie: 1 Samuel 28. King Saul consults a medium.

Those that try and make this "soul sleep" idea work have to say that this wasn't really Samuel, but the text, and accuracy of Samuel's speech destroy that notion. My thoughts in red.

11 Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?”

And he said, “Bring up Samuel for me.”

12 When the woman saw Samuel, SHE CRIED OUT WITH A LOUD VOICE. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!”
This woman was a witch. She regularly consulted "the dead". She was extremely terrified because THIS time it wasn't a false demonic spirit that she saw, but the real deal.

13 And the king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What did you see?”

And the woman said to Saul, “I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.”

14 So he said to her, “What is his form?”

And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down.

15 Now Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” sheol/hades is always referred to as down. OT Saints all went DOWN to hades before Jesus' death and resurrection.

And Saul answered, “I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do.”

16 Then Samuel said: “So why do you ask me, seeing the Lord has departed from you and has become your enemy? 17 And the Lord has done for [b]Himself as He spoke by me. For the Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. 18 Because you did not obey the voice of the Lord nor execute His fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore the Lord has done this thing to you this day. 19 Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.”

AT LEAST 4 TIMES THE BIBLICAL TEXT ITSELF SAYS THAT IT WAS SAMUEL, NOT A SPIRIT IMITATING SAMUEL.
ALSO, EVERYTHING SAMUEL SAID WAS EITHER TRUE IN THE PAST OR CAME TRUE THE NEXT DAY.

The only question was when Samuel said the next day Saul would be with him, did that mean sheol/hades in general, and the bad side, or did it mean he would be with Samuel in Abraham's bosom

But either way unless you bastardize the ACTUAL TEXT, this totally destroys this notion of "soul sleep".

From my experiences its the same verses Catholic use to confirm their workers with familiar spirit gods in the likeness of men .(3500 and rising patron saints). Take away that foundation they fall.

It would seem to take the natural path. Saul was not answered by any manner to include the "dead (necromancy) prophets" this would clearly include Samuel as one of the prophets.

And when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.1 Samuel 28: 6

The wizard or mediator needed a description to put a face image on the legion in order to walk in agreement with each other .. It as many gods never comes up as one . The lying spirits name is legion as many. Information was needed before hand .

1 Samuel 28: 12-14 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods (Legion) ascending out of the earth.And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

They Worshiped the lying vision.

At least 4 times God sent a strong delusion so they could both belive the lies. The results of going above all things written in the law and the prophets(sola scriptura)

When Josiah found the book of the law the hidden pearl... it cast out those lying familiar spirits. Rachel hid them from her father.

2 Kings 23:24 Moreover the workers with familiar spirits, and the wizards, and the images, and the idols, and all the abominations that were spied in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, did Josiah put away, that he might perform the words of the law which were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the house of the Lord.

 

[Webers.Home]

.
● Luke 16:23-25 . . He cried out and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on
me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool
off my tongue; for I am in agony in this flame.

The Greek word for "flame" is phlox (flox) which basically means a blaze.

Well; apparently the rich man wasn't engulfed in the blaze. I assume so
because his view wasn't obscured to the point wherein conditions prevented
him from seeing clearly enough to spy Abraham and Lazarus at some
distance. (There may in fact have been other people in the area too but the
Bible left them out of the story; likely because they're not relevant.)

Did the rich man actually think that Lazarus would agree to walk thru fire to
bring him water? That part of the story is very curious.

The blaze is curious too. Was it not so hot that moisture on a wet fingertip
could survive evaporation long enough for Lazarus to reach the man and
apply it to his tongue?

Why did the rich man request such a small amount of water? Why not a
mug, or better yet; a whole bucket?
_