GOG MAGOG?????

[Pilgrimshope]

@Pilgrimshope, The book of Revelation is PROPHECY. John was taken spiritually into the future:

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

- Revelation 1:10 (KJV)

It’s not the revelation of Jesus Christ given to John the apostle for the church ?

“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; ( John is taken into heaven remember in chapter four ) and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And does John write of the past present and future in the vision like he’s told ?

you see the vision of John is showing us an ordered account of what was before , what was happening while John was alive and what would come after and it’s all based upon what’s already in the ot and gospel and epistles

“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, ( present )

and which was, ( past )

and which is to come, the Almighty.( future )

…Write the things which thou hast seen,( past )

and ( also ) the things which are,( present )

and ( also ) the things which shall be hereafter;”( future )
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:8, 19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.( I will reveal this mystery to you )

The beast that thou sawest was, ( past )

and is not;( present )

and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:( future ) and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

And there are seven kings: five are fallen, ( past )

and one is, ( johns present )

and the other is not yet come; ( future ) and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

And the beast that was, ( past ) and is not, ( johns present ) even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; ( past and present )

(but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. ( future )

These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them future ) for he is Lord of Lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭17:7-8, 10-12, 14

Things like this

“And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: and she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:1-2, 5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this isn’t a prophecy brother it’s a revelation of prophecy how do we make sense of this woman with a crown of twelve stars and dressed beautifully with the sun and moon whomis expecting a son to be born a male child who would rule all Nations ? And was taken up to god and to his throne ?

how could someone who’s read the Bible understand what’s being seen on johns vision brother ??? Does the Bible’s ot establish israel as the sun moon and twelve stars ? And does the ot tell us god adorned her with beauty and made her the city of the great king made her renown and beauty cover the earth ? And does the ot ever tell us a son would be born in Israel who would rule all
Nations and was taken up to god and his throne ?

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭3:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The vision John sees of the woman giving birth to a son and him being taken into heaven to the throne is a vision of Israel being promised the messiah would be born to a virgin , who would rule all the world with a rod of iron and would be taken to sit at the right hand of God until all his adversaries became his footstool

a we’re just seeing a vision of revelation th at helps us comprehend all the many scrambled ot prophecies like these short examples

Why was israel shown as a woman expecting a son to be born that would rule all nations with a rod of iron ?

“
Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, And the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: Be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, And rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, When his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”

‭‭Psalm‬ ‭2:6-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.”

‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭7:14

“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel.”

‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭9:6-8‬ ‭

“I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.”

‭‭Daniel‬ ‭7:13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Regarding Gog and Magog, Yes.

a yeah I was just asking to better understand what you were saying as I read through the post thanks for explaining your position

 

[Aaron56]

First he spoke of it beforehand

“For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭65:17-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

then he preached the gospel and promised this to believers of Jesus who told us the truth about what’s coming on the world until the end

“But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:8-10, 13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Then he showed a vision of this coming to pass to an apostle for the church to give hope in the tribulation of this world to believers

And in the conclusion of revelation what he began saying in the prophets there is fulfilled by n the vision we see

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away;( what he began saying in the prophets coming to pass on johns heavenly vision ) and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

airs a vision of the cosmic battle between good and evil in all creation we see in heaven and in earth back and forth this war we see it won in heaven and we see Satan and his angels come to earth and attack mankind this happens in chapter 12-14 but it’s repetitively seen on the vision also we see the heavenly source and the outcome we see the end of the world and the beginning of the new

It’s all the things gods always been saying set in a heavenly vision to give us faith and Hope knowing the final outcome and far away view of our promised land that new world without sin and death were promised in Christ

revelation is a vision based upon the prior words of God

Thank you brother. On the main we completely agree. I always appreciate your thorough commentary.

 

[selahsays]

swell technically Jesus sent one of his angels to tell John what to write …..read chapter one

I’m not sure. I’m using the NKJV here because in this translation, the pronouns referring to God or Jesus are capitalized, and I love that. Hmm…. Is this an angel like (maybe) Gabriel? Or is it the Angel of the Lord (Jesus) who is speaking. I believe it’s Jesus Himself:

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, saying, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last," and, "What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea." Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength. And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. "I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. "Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this.

- Revelation 1:10-19 (NKJV)

Thoughts?

 

[oyster67]

it has to happen before that though right ? Before the world ends ?

Sure. As far as I can tell, the Gog Magog Battle precipitates the fiery end of the old and beginning of the new and final state.

 

[oyster67]

So your looking at revelation like a literal timeline of events ?

The last few chapters seem to be in chronological order. (Chaps 19,20,21.)

 

[oyster67]

"I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. "Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this.

- Revelation 1:10-19 (NKJV)

Thoughts?

That is Jesus...
Revelation 1:1
“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:”

Me thinks that after the seven letters were dictated to John, his spirit was literally transported through time, experienced the Pre-Trib Rapture, and then had a little talk with Jesus.

Revelation 1:7
“Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.”

I believe that delineates the Rapture, the Trib, and then the Second Coming. (A brief summary.)
------------------------------------------------------------

After the seven letters have been dictated to him in chapters 2 and 3, John hears the Rapture Trumpet and "come up hither"...
Revelation 4:1
“After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.”

I believe that John's spirit actually goes up in the Pre-Trib Rapture here and sees the Lord on His throne...
Revelation 4:2
“And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.”

We then see a scene of many creatures worshipping Him through chapter 4.
-------------------------------------------------------------

Chapters 5-11 speak of Tribulation events.

Chapter 12 is an interlude that speaks of events from the beginning of time, including the fall of Satan and the Nation of Israel.

Chapters 13-18 continue to speak of Tribulation events (wrath on Earth).

In Chapter 19 we are introduced to the Church who has been preparing for the wedding (joy in Heaven)...
Revelation 19:7
“Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.”

Later in Chapter 19 we see Jesus descending to Earth with these white robed saints (Second Coming)...
Revelation 19:14,15
“And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.”
“And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.”

Chapter 20 speaks of the Millenium and Events at the end of the Millenium. (Battle of Gog and Magog, Great White Throne Judgement.)

Chapter 21 speaks of the New Heaven and Earth and the New Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven. It then goes into great detail describing this city. This is the Final State.

Chapter 22 then gives closing thoughts and warnings and blessings.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Sure. As far as I can tell, the Gog Magog Battle precipitates the fiery end of the old and beginning of the new and final state.

amen so do you think it’s possible that revelation isn’t always showing things happening on earth ?

and maybe Zion is where the “ thousand year “ reign takes place ?

What I mean is do you think revelation is showing heaven and also earth ?

“And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. ( this group of people had lived on earth and died d now we’re on the kingdom of heaven )

( simultaneously on earth ) Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:10-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what im asking is do you think the reign of Christ is happening on earth ? Or in heaven ?

See there while heavens kingdom is set up and everyone is celebrating because Satan has been cast out into earth but the earth and Christian’s on earth are at war with Satan ?

“And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We then see this war break out between the beast and gods people on earth but each time the vision looks back into heaven it’s always celebration and victory

“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; and cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:9-10, 14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

where did those who were raised up with Christ go ?

“and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:52-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

maybe the reign happens in the kingdom which is in heaven currently

“but ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, ( now read revelation chapter 5-7) and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved,( because it’s in heaven ) let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22-24, 28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

aid you examine revelation it bounces back and forth between events happening in heaven d events happening on earth is all I’m saying

at he kingdom is where the reign is happening now in zion the heavenly Jerusalem

“And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion , and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:1‬ ‭

“ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, “
Do you reckon it’s possible at least that the reign after the first resurrection is actually occurring in heaven while the earth continues on as usual at war with Satan ?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The last few chapters seem to be in chronological order. (Chaps 19,20,21.)

Yes brother it is several visions not a single one the seals are a later trumpets are a layer and the vials are a layer there is chronology within each vision

Its like Daniel and his visions several layered upon the others and then revelation given to him by angels within the book revelation is the same design it’s not just one king continuous vision it is many based upon the Old Testament prophets and what they said

So I agree there is chronology within each seperate vision but not in conjunction with the other sections of what John saw. Each vision is based upon prophecy from the ot nd tbey said the same things in many ways seeing many figures which come out on the book of revelation

Like the four horses and riders carrying the four judgements that come running out of heaven when Jesus opens the first four seals ? That imagery is based on Old Testament prophecy when zechariah saw the colored horses running out of heaven and was told that there are the four spirits of heaven carrying the four judgements of God into the earth

later he sees Jerusalems men and women bieng sealed by a man with a writers inkhorn by his side before Jerusalem is destroyed and the destroyers aren’t allowed to hurt anyone until they are all sealed

just like in revelations dealing of the 144000 ext

AlMost the whole book of revelation is like this it’s written mysteriously in the ot in figures and then revealed in revelation by those figures

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Thank you brother. On the main we completely agree. I always appreciate your thorough commentary.

I always enjoy your thoughts also always consider them down the road when I study sometimes really find helpful thinking. This place is good for that hearing other thoughts that we maybe never considered this can really be helpful if we remain open to lookin at things in new ways

“Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[oyster67]

amen so do you think it’s possible that revelation isn’t always showing things happening on earth ?

Its shows both, and how they are connected. Many things on earth during the Trib are actually judgements poured out from Heaven; even the coming of the anti-Christ! (He is the first horseman.)
Revelation 6:1 Context
1And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. 2And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. 3And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. 4And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword...

and maybe Zion is where the “ thousand year “ reign takes place ?

On Earth, where Jerusalem is currently located, I believe. That is earthly Zion.

What I mean is do you think revelation is showing heaven and also earth ?

Yes. Shows both. Mostly in order, except for Chap 12. The Church is not in Chaps 5-18 because it is in Heaven preparing for the wedding all that time. It finally appears in Chap 19.

( this group of people had lived on earth and died d now we’re on the kingdom of heaven )

Yes, these are the Trib Saints who were beheaded early on. They missed the Rapture but quickly repented. Their bodies went to the grave, but we see their souls in Heaven. All those who were in the Rapture have glorifed bodies at this point.

( simultaneously on earth ) Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:10-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Revelation 12 is an interlude that is not in Chronological order. It steps back and takes a look at the fall of Satan and His hatred for the Woman who eventually ends up in the wilderness. That is a picture of Israel down through time (Jesus comes out of Israel) and into the Trib.

what im asking is do you think the reign of Christ is happening on earth ? Or in heaven ?

The Millenium takes place on Earth were Jesus rules with a rod of iron. He brings us back down from Heaven with Him to reign on Earth after the Trib. (At His Second Coming.)...
Rev 19:
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

See there while heavens kingdom is set up and everyone is celebrating because Satan has been cast out into earth but the earth and Christian’s on earth are at war with Satan ?

Must not confuse Chap 12 with the rest of Revelation. Rev 12 goes back to the beginning of time where Satan is cast down to Earth. During the Millenium, Satan will be cast down again, but this time from Earth to the pit (for 1000 years.)

“And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Speaking of the Jewish remnant.. the line of Jesus. They will eventually be saved at the Time of Jacob's Trouble (The Trib.)

where did those who were raised up with Christ go ?

The Raptured Church goes to Heaven with glorified bodies before the Trib. The beheaded Trib Saint's souls go up shortly thereafter. Israel is saved at the end of the Trib.

“and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:52-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This happened 2000 years ago.

maybe the reign happens in the kingdom which is in heaven currently

The Wedding takes place in Heaven...
John 14:2,3
“In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.”
“And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”

And we then come down to Earth with Him to reign for 1000 years...
Rev 19:
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

“but ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,

Yes, this is where the wedding takes place.

aid you examine revelation it bounces back and forth between events happening in heaven d events happening on earth is all I’m saying

Yes, that is because there are events occurring in both places.

at he kingdom is where the reign is happening now in zion the heavenly Jerusalem

The 1000-year reign on Earth is yet future.

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion , and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:1‬ ‭
“ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, “
Do you reckon it’s possible at least that the reign after the first resurrection is actually occurring in heaven while the earth continues on as usual at war with Satan ?

These events take place in the future, yet the hope and anticipation is alive within us and gives us joy now.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Its shows both, and how they are connected. Many things on earth during the Trib are actually judgements poured out from Heaven; even the coming of the anti-Christ! (He is the first horseman.)
Revelation 6:1 Context
1And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. 2And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. 3And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. 4And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword...


On Earth, where Jerusalem is currently located, I believe. That is earthly Zion.


Yes. Shows both. Mostly in order, except for Chap 12. The Church is not in Chaps 5-18 because it is in Heaven preparing for the wedding all that time. It finally appears in Chap 19.


Yes, these are the Trib Saints who were beheaded early on. They missed the Rapture but quickly repented. Their bodies went to the grave, but we see their souls in Heaven. All those who were in the Rapture have glorifed bodies at this point.


Revelation 12 is an interlude that is not in Chronological order. It steps back and takes a look at the fall of Satan and His hatred for the Woman who eventually ends up in the wilderness. That is a picture of Israel down through time (Jesus comes out of Israel) and into the Trib.


The Millenium takes place on Earth were Jesus rules with a rod of iron. He brings us back down from Heaven with Him to reign on Earth after the Trib. (At His Second Coming.)...
Rev 19:
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


Must not confuse Chap 12 with the rest of Revelation. Rev 12 goes back to the beginning of time where Satan is cast down to Earth. During the Millenium, Satan will be cast down again, but this time from Earth to the pit (for 1000 years.)


Speaking of the Jewish remnant.. the line of Jesus. They will eventually be saved at the Time of Jacob's Trouble (The Trib.)


The Raptured Church goes to Heaven with glorified bodies before the Trib. The beheaded Trib Saint's souls go up shortly thereafter. Israel is saved at the end of the Trib.


This happened 2000 years ago.


The Wedding takes place in Heaven...
John 14:2,3
“In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.”
“And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”

And we then come down to Earth with Him to reign for 1000 years...
Rev 19:
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


Yes, this is where the wedding takes place.


Yes, that is because there are events occurring in both places.


The 1000-year reign on Earth is yet future.


These events take place in the future, yet the hope and anticipation is alive within us and gives us joy now.

thanks for taking the time in explaining your thoughts there brother it’s appreciated

“Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

But Jerusalem which is above( sion ) is free, which is the mother of us all.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4:24-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Yahshua]

Revelation ch 1-3 = Intro, vision of the Holy Temple, letters to churches

Revelation ch 4-11 = full timeline for establishing Messiah's Kingdom (starting from His ascension at Pentecost) "It is done".

Revelation ch 12-16 = full timeline for establishing Messiah's Kingdom (another witness; starting from His birth summary) "It is done".

Revelation ch 17-19 = details of the great harlot and her destruction by Messiah to begin His reign.

Revelation ch 20-22 = aftermath: Messiah's reign, satan's final stand (Gog/Magog), The Father's kingdom established

----

Gog/Magog war is satan's final stand and occurs after Messiah has established His Reign

 

[DRobinson]

Oh, and by the way, The Lord’s Day is not a Sunday or a Saturday. Paul speaks about this Day in 1 Thessalonians 5:2: For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Also, it is written about in 2 Thessalonians 2:2-3:
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

- 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (KJV)

Why do people quote 1 Thessalonians 2 and not the entire passage?
When you read through verse 5 you see that Jesus coming will not be as a thief in the night.
He only comes as a thief to those in darkness, the lost, not to those in light, the saved.
Please stop trying to make Scripture say what it does not say.

 

[Magenta]

I’m using the NKJV here because in this translation, the pronouns referring to God or Jesus are capitalized, and I love that.

Revelation 1:1 (showing other translations which do the same)

Berean Standard Bible
This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what
must soon come to pass. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John,

Berean Literal Bible
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants what things it behooves
to take place in quickness. And He signified it through having sent His angel to His servant, John,

New King James Version
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which
must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,

New American Standard Bible
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which
must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,

NASB 1995
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which
must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,

NASB 1977
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which
must shortly take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,

Legacy Standard Bible
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His slaves the things which
must soon happen; and He indicated this by sending it through His angel to His slave John,

Amplified Bible
This is the revelation of Jesus Christ [His unveiling of the divine mysteries], which God [the Father] gave to Him to show to His bond-servants (believers) the things which must soon take place [in their entirety]; and He sent and communicated it by His angel (divine messenger) to His bond-servant John,

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The revelation of Jesus Christ that God gave Him to show His slaves what must
quickly take place. He sent it and signified it through His angel to His slave John,

Literal Standard Version
A revelation of Jesus Christ that God gave to Him to show to His servants what things must quickly
come to pass; and He signified [it], having sent through His messenger to His servant John,

Majority Standard Bible
This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what
must soon come to pass. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John,

Weymouth New Testament
The revelation given by Jesus Christ, which God granted Him, that He might make known to His servants
certain events which must shortly come to pass: and He sent His angel and communicated it to His servant John.

Worrell New Testament
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him, to show to His servants the things which must
shortly come to pass; and, having sent, He signified them through His angel to His servant John;

​

 

[BeeBlessed]

Why do people quote 1 Thessalonians 2 and not the entire passage?
When you read through verse 5 you see that Jesus coming will not be as a thief in the night.
He only comes as a thief to those in darkness, the lost, not to those in light, the saved.
Please stop trying to make Scripture say what it does not say.

I understand your point; however, I think you misunderstood @selahsays ’s point. She would be the last person to try to make scripture say something it doesn‘t. Instead, she was giving an example of a scripture that proves the Day of the Lord is always referring to our Messiah’s return and not Sunday, a day of the week. In fact, she agrees with you about the passage in I Thessalonians and has posted the same viewpoint here on this forum.

 

[DRobinson]

I understand your point; however, I think you misunderstood @selahsays ’s point. She would be the last person to try to make scripture say something it doesn‘t. Instead, she was giving an example of a scripture that proves the Day of the Lord is always referring to our Messiah’s return and not Sunday, a day of the week. In fact, she agrees with you about the passage in I Thessalonians and has posted the same viewpoint here on this forum.

If I misunderstood I am sorry.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Prophecy



“Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

….And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood. Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.

And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you. Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.”

‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭39:1, 17-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬


The Revelation seen in johns vision

“And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; that ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.


And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

‭‭Revelation‬ ‭19:17-21‬ ‭KJ

 

[Yahshua]

Prophecy



“Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

….And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood. Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.

And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you. Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.”

‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭39:1, 17-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬


The Revelation seen in johns vision

“And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; that ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.


And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

‭‭Revelation‬ ‭19:17-21‬ ‭KJ

Hi Pilgrimshope,

If we take the events of Ezekiel like you say (and which I also agree with doing), then we'd need to shift the events of Revelation a bit so that Gog/Magog of Ezekiel 39 matches Gog/Magog of Revelation 20:7

The book of Ezekiel was written while in Babylonian captivity, so that's our starting point of sorts. This means that at a certain point in Ezekiel's pages, the Almighty prophesies the events that would happen after Jews returned to the land during the 2nd temple period and then afterward:


1. Ezekiel 33:28-29 - Jews will start sinning again when they return from Babylon
(fulfilled prior to Christ's birth 457 - 3 BC; includes books of Ezra and Nehemiah)


2. Ezekiel 34 - Corrupt shepherds will mislead the people but God will "search out his sheep" and make a covenant with them
(fulfilled: The Gospels -- Christ vs Pharisees; The cross; Pentecost 27 - 34 AD)


3. Ezekiel 35:5-15 - Jerusalem will be destroyed and Edomites will claim the land as theirs, but live through constant war; never at peace there.
(fulfilled: Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD...and the land has not seen peace since it was claimed by those who call themselves Jews)


4. Ezekiel 36:1-7 - God will be angry at Edom for claiming the land as their property, and angry at every nation of the world for possessing his people
(fulfilled; the diaspora)


5. Ezekiel 36:8-15 - (a) The nations will mock God's people and mistreat them until (b) God Himself gathers them back home.
(part "a" fulfilled: mistreatment of the Jews by Catholics and Christians across history as "murderers of Christ"; Romans 11)


6. Ezekiel 36:24-27 - God will gather His people out of the lands of their scattering and will confirm the new covenant with them. They'll remain in the lands of their scattering until He does this.
(unfulfilled: in Matthew 24:31, Messiah speaks of God's angels gathering the elect from the four corners. in 2 Thess 2, Paul prophesies Christ will gather all of His people in the clouds).


7. Ezekiel 37 - Valley of dry bones; the whole house of Israel
(unfulfilled: This is the resurrection of the dead in Christ, which will occur at the end-time gathering.)


8. Ezekiel 38-39 - Israel will live in safety in their land without any protective walls or barriers until Gog & Magog think to invade. But God will destroy them in His fiery fury.
(unfulfilled: Jerusalem doesn't currently live in peace and they are building partitions constantly. This is how we know it's not the Israel of God but Edom.)


9. Ezekiel 40-48 - Full Details of the Great Temple (as big as a city), complete with dwellings for all tribes and for The Prince. End of prophecy,
(unfulfilled: Eternity; heaven on earth)


----

Now if we list the events of Revelation backward starting from New Jerusalem we get:

- New Jerusalem descending to earth; Almighty dwelling w/His people forever
- Gathered by satan, the Gog/Magog army surrounds Almighty's people but is destroyed by Heavenly fire
- 1000-year reign with Christ
- Christ destroys the Beast and his army
- The Gathering of Beast's army to war with Lamb
- The Marriage Supper of the Lamb
- Judgment falls on Babylon
- The Patience of the saints (as they are persecuted & killed)

----

Matching the events of Ezekiel together with the events of Revelation, and starting from the end, we have:

- The Great Temple = The City of New Jerusalem descending from heaven
- Gog/Magog army thinks to invade but is destroyed = Satan gathers the Gog/Magog army but is destroyed by heavenly fire
- Israel lives in safety w/out protective walls = 1000 year reign of peace with Christ
- {missing from Ezekiel} = Christ destroys the Beast and his army
- {missing from Ezekiel} = The Gathering of Beast's army to war with Lamb
- Gathering of God's people & Valley of Dry Bones (resurrection) = The Marriage Supper of the Lamb
- {missing from Ezekiel} = Judgment falls on Babylon
- The nations will mock and mistreat The Almighty's people = Patience of the saints

----

So Gog/Magog is the 2nd army that gathers after the 1000-year reign of peace is over, while the beast army is the 1st army that is destroyed when Christ comes prior to His 1000-year reign of peace.

 

[SACREDWARRIOR]

Hi Pilgrimshope,

If we take the events of Ezekiel like you say (and which I also agree with doing), then we'd need to shift the events of Revelation a bit so that Gog/Magog of Ezekiel 39 matches Gog/Magog of Revelation 20:7

The book of Ezekiel was written while in Babylonian captivity, so that's our starting point of sorts. This means that at a certain point in Ezekiel's pages, the Almighty prophesies the events that would happen after Jews returned to the land during the 2nd temple period and then afterward:


1. Ezekiel 33:28-29 - Jews will start sinning again when they return from Babylon
(fulfilled prior to Christ's birth 457 - 3 BC; includes books of Ezra and Nehemiah)


2. Ezekiel 34 - Corrupt shepherds will mislead the people but God will "search out his sheep" and make a covenant with them
(fulfilled: The Gospels -- Christ vs Pharisees; The cross; Pentecost 27 - 34 AD)


3. Ezekiel 35:5-15 - Jerusalem will be destroyed and Edomites will claim the land as theirs, but live through constant war; never at peace there.
(fulfilled: Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD...and the land has not seen peace since it was claimed by those who call themselves Jews)


4. Ezekiel 36:1-7 - God will be angry at Edom for claiming the land as their property, and angry at every nation of the world for possessing his people
(fulfilled; the diaspora)


5. Ezekiel 36:8-15 - (a) The nations will mock God's people and mistreat them until (b) God Himself gathers them back home.
(part "a" fulfilled: mistreatment of the Jews by Catholics and Christians across history as "murderers of Christ"; Romans 11)


6. Ezekiel 36:24-27 - God will gather His people out of the lands of their scattering and will confirm the new covenant with them. They'll remain in the lands of their scattering until He does this.
(unfulfilled: in Matthew 24:31, Messiah speaks of God's angels gathering the elect from the four corners. in 2 Thess 2, Paul prophesies Christ will gather all of His people in the clouds).


7. Ezekiel 37 - Valley of dry bones; the whole house of Israel
(unfulfilled: This is the resurrection of the dead in Christ, which will occur at the end-time gathering.)


8. Ezekiel 38-39 - Israel will live in safety in their land without any protective walls or barriers until Gog & Magog think to invade. But God will destroy them in His fiery fury.
(unfulfilled: Jerusalem doesn't currently live in peace and they are building partitions constantly. This is how we know it's not the Israel of God but Edom.)


9. Ezekiel 40-48 - Full Details of the Great Temple (as big as a city), complete with dwellings for all tribes and for The Prince. End of prophecy,
(unfulfilled: Eternity; heaven on earth)


----

Now if we list the events of Revelation backward starting from New Jerusalem we get:

- New Jerusalem descending to earth; Almighty dwelling w/His people forever
- Gathered by satan, the Gog/Magog army surrounds Almighty's people but is destroyed by Heavenly fire
- 1000-year reign with Christ
- Christ destroys the Beast and his army
- The Gathering of Beast's army to war with Lamb
- The Marriage Supper of the Lamb
- Judgment falls on Babylon
- The Patience of the saints (as they are persecuted & killed)

----

Matching the events of Ezekiel together with the events of Revelation, and starting from the end, we have:

- The Great Temple = The City of New Jerusalem descending from heaven
- Gog/Magog army thinks to invade but is destroyed = Satan gathers the Gog/Magog army but is destroyed by heavenly fire
- Israel lives in safety w/out protective walls = 1000 year reign of peace with Christ
- {missing from Ezekiel} = Christ destroys the Beast and his army
- {missing from Ezekiel} = The Gathering of Beast's army to war with Lamb
- Gathering of God's people & Valley of Dry Bones (resurrection) = The Marriage Supper of the Lamb
- {missing from Ezekiel} = Judgment falls on Babylon
- The nations will mock and mistreat The Almighty's people = Patience of the saints

----

So Gog/Magog is the 2nd army that gathers after the 1000-year reign of peace is over, while the beast army is the 1st army that is destroyed when Christ comes prior to His 1000-year reign of peace.

Hello,

Here is the difference in our 2 views, I believe the first lets call it invasion is NOT A WAR but a SO CALLED PEACE KEEPING OCCUPATION...That quickly breaks down into Chaos.. the LATTER mentions of Gog..deal with WAR.
THE BATTLE RAGES TIL THE LION ROARS!!
Clarence