gentiles were never under the law ( Romans 2 12-15 ) , Paul directly states it ( no answer from you if you think Paul's letters are authoritative Scripture ), so there. you are refuted.
Hi gb9,
Sorry, I went to sleep waiting for your reply to a previous post, it was late my time. This post was not addressed to anyone or has it refuted anything. Where have you ever posted this before? I could not find it anywhere
No worried let's have a look at the scriptures and your intepretation of them.
You interpret Romans 2:12-15 as meaning Gentile believers are not required to be obedient to God's LAW (10 commandments) correct?
Now let's look at the scritpures you have quoted to support your interpretation of your belief.......
Romans 2
12, For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and
as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13, For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14, For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15, Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Now gb9, are you serious? The scriptures you post refute your own interpretation of them in the
CONTEXT of verses 14 and 15. It is NOT saying that OBEDIENCE is not a requirement or FRUIT of FAITH. It that was true Paul would NOT have written verses 12 and 13
; For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Now we can stop here my friend you have already provided the scritpures that refute your own interpretation of God's Word.
If you still think that OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not a requirement of FAITH that works by LOVE in those who BELIEVE how do you reconcile the following scriptures, because you do know that SIN is the transgression of God's LAW right (Romans 7:7; James 2:11; 1 john 3:4; Romans 3:20)?
Please reconcile the following scriptures with your belief that Gentile Christians are not required to be OBEDIENT to God's 10 commandments.............
Jesus taught the 10 commandments…..
1. Jesus kept God’s Law (10 commandments) and said the Law and the prophets would not pass away (Matt 5:17-18)
2. Jesus taught others to follow the 10 commandments (Mark 10:17-21)
3. Jesus taught that Love is the fulfilling (doing) of God’s Law (10 commandments Matt 22:36-
40)
4. If we break God’s Law by following man-made traditions we are not following God (Matt 15:3-9)
5. Jesus says if we commit sin we are a servant of sin and he has come to free us from sin (John 8:32-36)
6. Jesus taught if you love God you will keep God’s Law and abide in His Love (John 14:15; 15:10
7. If anyone is breaking any of God’s commandments and teaching others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven <least = lost> (Matt 5:19)
8. No one can obey God’s Law producing the fruit of obedience of ourselves and unless we abide in Jesus we can do nothing (John 15:4-10)
Paul affirms the Ten Commandments……
1. Paul teaches God's people keep the Sabbath Hebrews 4.
2. Paul tells gentiles that "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of GOD" 1 Cor 7:19
3. Paul tells gentiles "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law will be justified... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge all mankind" Rom 2:13-16
4. Paul asks that gentiles consider the doctrine of LAW "Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31
5. Paul tells ALL Christians that it is only the lost who will "not subject themselves to the Law of God neither indeed CAN they" Rom 8:6-8
6 Paul reaches all Christians under the NEW Covenant that God's LAW as known in Jer 31:31-33 is "written on the heart and mind" Heb 8:7-11
7. Paul tells all Christians that the OT text is to be used for Doctrine 2Tim 3:16
AND He never claims that "if I did not write it -- it is not scripture for us today" -- as one or two have imagined for us.
8. Paul tells all Christians that the 5th commandment is the "FIRST commandment with a promise" Eph 6:1-2 and is binding on all Christians.
9. God's Law (10 commandments) are holy, just and good (Rom 7:12)
10. God's Law gives us a knowledge of what sin is (Rom 3:20; 7:7)
11. The penalty of breaking God's Law without Jesus is death (Rom 6:23)
12. If we break God's Law we dishonor God (Rom 2:23)
13. If we sin we are "under the Law" and guilty before God (Rom 3:19)
14. We are saved by faith but our faith establishes the Law in us (Rom 3:31)
15. If we are saved by grace we should not break God's Law (Rom 6:1-7)
16. We should not break God's Law if we are under grace (Rom 6:15)
17. We are to serve the Law of God through the mind because that is where sin starts (Rom 6:17; 7:25; 8:4; 12:2)
18. It is God's Law that brings us to Jesus (Gal 3:24)
19. God's salvation frees us from sin so we can be obedient to God's Law and live a life of holiness (Rom 6:22)
20. We will be judged by God's Law and only those that are obedient will be justified because of their faith (Rom 2:4-13)
21. God's Law can only be obeyed through love and a changed heart which comes by faith in God's Word (Rom 2:21-29; 13:9-10; Heb 8:9-10)
22. If we break God's Law and are in unrepentant sin we will be lost and will received God's judgements (Heb 10:26-27)
John affirms the 10 commandments……
1. John says it is only by keeping God’s 10 commandments that we know that we know God (1 John 2:3)
2. If someone says that they know God and do not keep God’s 10 commandments they are lying and not telling the truth (1 John 2:4)
3. We should purify ourselves as Jesus is pure (1 John 3:3)
4. Sin is the breaking of God’s 10 commandments (1 John 3:4)
5. Whoever is abiding in Christ does not commit sin (1 John 3:6; John 15:4-10)
6. If you are in unrepentant sin you have not seen Jesus or know him (1 John 3:6)
7. John warns us that only those that are obedience to God’s Law are his true followers (1 John 3:7)
8. If someone is committing unrepentant sin they are following the devil and not God (1 John 3:7)
9. If you are born of God and abiding in him you will not commit sin (1 John 3:9; 1 John 3:6; John 15:4-10
10. It is the keeping of God’s commandments that is the difference between those that are following God and those that are not following God (1 John 3:10; 1 John 5:3)
11. It is only by Love through faith that we can keep God’s commandments (1 John 5:3-4)
12. God’s true believers in the end days will keep all of God’s commandments through faith in Jesus (Rev 14:12; 22:14)
James also affirms the 10 commandments…….
1. James says God’s Law (10 commandments) are a Royal Law (James 2:8)
2. If we break one of God’s commandments we a guilty before God as sinners breaking all of God’s Law and gave some examples of breaking God’s Law (James 2:9-11)
3. James says God’s Law is a law of liberty and freedom (James 2:12)
4. The 10 commandments (God’s Law) are the standard in the judgment (James 2:12)
5. If our faith does not have the fruit of obedience to God’s Law it is dead and not true faith (James 2:16-26)
Peter affirms the 10 commandments……..
1. Sanctification is to obedience to God’s Law (1 Pet 1:2)
2. We can only be changed from sin to obedience to God’s Law by the power of God and it will be revealed in the last days (1 Pet 1:5)
3. We should give up our sins to be holy because Jesus is holy (1 Pet 1:13-16)
4. Jesus is your example who did no sin (1 Pet 2:21-22)
5. Cease from sin and do not live in the flesh (1 Pet 4:1-3)
6. Judgement will begin at the house of God and sinners (those breaking God’s 10 commandments) will not be saved.
7. God has given us his precious promises and as we believe them God will grant us his divine power to live a life of
Godliness (obedience to God’s Law; 2 Pet 1:2-4)
8. The
Un-Godly (disobedient to God’s Law) will be like Sodom and Gomorrah (2 Pet 2:6)
9. If any turn away from God’s Law and are in unrepentant sin breaking any of God’10 commandments they will be lost (2 Pet 2:20-22)
10 God is not willing that any should perish but that everyone should come to repentance and turn away from sin to follow God’s 10 commandments because those that do not will receive the judgements of God (2 Pet 3:5-14)
What did Jesus and the Apostles teach about the Sabbath in the New Testament?
1. It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath (
Matt 12:1-8; 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56)
2. Jesus made the Sabbath for all mankind (
Hebrews 1:2; John 1:1-3; 14; Ephesians 3:9; Colossians 1:16-17; Mark 2:27)
3. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath (
Mark 2:28)
4. If you do not believe and follow God you cannot enter His Sabbath rest (
Hebrews 4)
5. It is one of God’s 10 commandments we break it we are guilty or breaking all (
James 2:8-12)
6. Breaking it is sin (
1 John 3:4)
7. God’s true followers keep it Holy as God commanded (
Rev 14:12; Rev 22:14; Eze 20:20)
8. Jesus is our example and he kept the Sabbath (
Matt 12:1-8; 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56; John 2:6; Matt 16:24; 1 Cor 11:1; Eph 5:1-21; Pet 2:20-22)
9. The Apostle kept the Sabbath (
Acts 13:14; 13:27; 13:44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4; Rev 1:10)
God’s Law in the NC is written on our hearts it is through love and it is love the fulfils God’s Law in us as we walk not after the flesh but after the spirit and is why Jesus says f you love me keep my commandments. (John 14:15; John 15:10). If we knowingly break one of God’s commandments we commit sin (1 John 3:4). This includes the 7th Day Sabbath which Jesus made for us and commands us to keep as a holy day.
............
Here we have Paul alone only in the book of Romans on God's LAW..........
ROMANS
Chapter 1
v5 By whom we have received GRACE AND APOSTLESHIP, for OBEDIENCE TO THE FAITH among all nations, for his name:
v16, For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION to every one that BELIEVES; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
v17, For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Chapter 2
v4, Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and long suffering; not knowing that the GOODNESS OF GOD LEAD YOU TO REPENTANCE?
v5, But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasure up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
v6, WHO WILL RENDER EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
v7, To them who by patient continuance in WELL DOING seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life:
v8, But unto them that are contentious, and DO NOT OBEY THE TRUTH, but OBEY UNRIGHTEOUSNESS ,<sin>, indignation and wrath,
v9, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that does evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
v10, But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that WORKS GOOD, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
v11, For there is no respect of persons with God.
v12,
FOR AS MANY AS HAVE SINNED WITHOUT THE LAW SHALL PERISH WITHOUT THE LAW: and AS MANY AS HAVE SINNED IN THE LAW SHALL BE JUDGED BY THE LAW;
v13,
For NOT THE HEARERS OF THE LAW ARE JUST BEFORE GOD BUT THE DOERS OF THE LAW SHALL BE JUSTIFIED.
Chapter 3
v3, For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
v4, God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou might be justified in thy sayings, and might overcome when thou art judged.
v27, Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
v28, Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
v29, Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
v30, Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
v31,
DO WE THEN MAKE VOID THE LAW THROUGH FAITH? GOD FORBID: YEA WE ESTABLISH THE LAW.
Chapter 6
v1, What shall we say then? SHALL WE CONTINUE IN SIN, that grace may abound?
v2, God forbid. HOW SHALL WE THAT ARE DEAD TO SIN LIVE THERE ANY LONGER?
v6, Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that HENCEFORTH WE SHOULD NOT SERVE SIN.
v7, For HE THAT IS DEAD IS FREED FROM SIN.
v10, For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he lives, HE LIVES UNTO GOD.
v11, Likewise RECKON YOU YOURSELVES INDEED DEAD TO SIN, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
v12, LET NOT SIN THEREFORE REIGN IN YOUR MORTAL BODY, THAT YOU SHOULD OBEY IT IN THE LUSTS THEREOF
v13, NEITHER YIELD YOU YOUR MEMBERS AS INSTRUMENTS OF UNRIGHTEOUSNESS UNTO SIN: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of RIGHTEOUSNESS UNTO GOD.
v14, FOR SIN SHALL NOT HAVE DOMINION OVER YOU: FOR YOU ARE NOT UNDER LAW, BUT UNDER GRACE.
v15, What then? SHALL WE SIN BECAUSE WE ARE NOT UNDER LAW, BUT UNDER GRACE? GOD FORBID.
v16, Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to OBEY, his servants ye are to whom ye OBEY; whether of SIN unto death, or of OBEDIENCE UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS?
v17, But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
v18, BEING MADE FREE FROM SIN, YOU BECAME THE SERVANTS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.
v19, I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now YIELD YOURSELVES SERVANTS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS UNTO HOLINESS.
v20, For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
v21, What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for THE END OF THOSE THINGS <sin> IS DEATH.
v22, BUT NOW BEING MADE FREE FROM SIN, and become servants to God, ye have your FRUIT UNTO HOLINESS, and the end everlasting life.
v23, For THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH; BUT THE GIFT OF GOD IS EVERLASTING LIFE THROUGH JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD.
Chapter 7
v7, What shall we say then? IS THE LAW SIN? God forbid. Nay, I HAD NOT KNOWN SIN BUT BY THE LAW: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
v8, But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
v9, For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
v10, And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
v11, For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
v12, WHEREFORE THE LAW IS HOLY AND THE COMMANDMENT HOLY AND JUST AND GOOD.
v13, Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
v14, For we know that THE LAW IS SPIRITUAL: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Chapter 8
v1, There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT.
v2, For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
v3, For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
v4, That THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW MIGHT BE FULFILLED IN US, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
v5, For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
v6, For TO BE CARNALLY MINDED IS DEATH; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
v7, Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
v8, So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
v9, But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
v10, ¶ And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
v11, But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwells in you.
Yep alot of scriptures indeed. It is hard to kick against the pricks......
Now gb9, this is serious for you my friend. My prayer is that you will consider thos post very prayerfully. If our FAITH does not have the FRUIT of OBEDIENCE to God's LAW then you do not KNOW him who LOVES you and you are still in your SINS (please read James 2:18; 20; 26; Matthew 7:13-23). Only those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's Word are HIs people. THose who do not BELIEVE and FOLLOW God will NOT enter the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.
Do you still think you have refuted anything?
My prayer is that you will know him who LOVES you and is calling you. You have been lead here for a reason gb9. Jesus LOVES you and is calling you. Can you hear his voice? God's sheep hear him calling.
...................
God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)
There is not one scripture in ALL of God's WORD that says God's 4th commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to worship God on Sunday in it's place.
Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has lead many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)
In times of ignorance God winks at but now calls all men every where to REPENT for the KINGDOM of HEAVEN is at HAND (Acts 17:30-31)
Hope this helps..
