Gods Elect vs man's selction

[FollowerofShiloh]

God so loved the world of believer

Jesus did not die to redeem the sins of all mankind, if so, all mankind would have eternal life, and even you know that the scriptures do not teach that. He only died for those that God gave him (John 6:37-39).

We see many hear Stephen preach the Gospel to and harden their hearts to kill him.
We see many Peter preaches the Gospel to and they accept God.
So we know you can hear the Gospel and Believe or Reject it.

But the real question is...
Wasn't it God who made sure ALL of those people Heard the Gospel to give them a chance to Believe?

YES, It WAS!

So the Chosen and Elect only means those who CHOOSE to Believe because MANY will HEAR the Gospel!

It also means All of those people were PREDESTINED to Hear the Gospel.


We even have a coalition today that keeps track of who has HEARD the Gospel and who Believes and Rejected it based upon their own evangelists/missionaries/preachers in the field all over the world.

According to this coalitions records of who they have preached the Gospel to:

How many have heard the Gospel Preached? 4.7 Billion

How many claim to be a Christian world wide? 2.38 Billion

That means 2.3 Billion of the 4.7 Billion people who have heard the Gospel preached REJECTED it on the spot.


But I propose that all of those 4.7 Billion people this Coalition has preached to, God PREDESTINED every one of them to HEAR the Gospel.

And ALL of them had the opportunity to ACCEPT God and become the Elect but 48.5% Rejected God.


So I believe Jesus DIED for ALL people (Saved/not Saved) and God has given them ALL a chance to hear the Gospel and the Freedom to Accept it or Reject it.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Hello FollowerofShiloh, the question is, what are phrases like "the world" and/or "all men" referring to when they are used in the Scriptures

It is really quite straightforward and there never should have ever been a misunderstanding. Even the lexicons confirm that "the world" means all the inhabitants of the world in this context.

And Christ actually made it eve plainer in John 3:17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Which world did God send His Son to? THE WORLD OF HUMANITY

Which world would be damned (condemned) without Christ's sacrifice? THE WORLD OF HUMANITY

Which world would be saved with the sacrifice of Christ? THE WORLD OF HUMANITY

In view of this one verse, no one one had any business playing any kind of game, particularly when the salvation of souls was at stake. But the Calvinists ignored this verse and misled the world of humanity. God will judge them for this perversion of the Gospel

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Those who say God predestined anything about our salvation gets scores of people making automatic assumptions what the thread is about. I think the word "predestination" should be taken out completely & simply state what you want to talk about.
God's plan was to save anybody & everybody. It's man's choice that "deselects".

If you will give me a scripture for your statement, I will be glad to explain how you are miss-interpreting it,

 

[ForestGreenCook]

We see many hear Stephen preach the Gospel to and harden their hearts to kill him.
We see many Peter preaches the Gospel to and they accept God.
So we know you can hear the Gospel and Believe or Reject it.

But the real question is...
Wasn't it God who made sure ALL of those people Heard the Gospel to give them a chance to Believe?

YES, It WAS!

So the Chosen and Elect only means those who CHOOSE to Believe because MANY will HEAR the Gospel!

It also means All of those people were PREDESTINED to Hear the Gospel.


We even have a coalition today that keeps track of who has HEARD the Gospel and who Believes and Rejected it based upon their own evangelists/missionaries/preachers in the field all over the world.

According to this coalitions records of who they have preached the Gospel to:

How many have heard the Gospel Preached? 4.7 Billion

How many claim to be a Christian world wide? 2.38 Billion

That means 2.3 Billion of the 4.7 Billion people who have heard the Gospel preached REJECTED it on the spot.


But I propose that all of those 4.7 Billion people this Coalition has preached to, God PREDESTINED every one of them to HEAR the Gospel.

And ALL of them had the opportunity to ACCEPT God and become the Elect but 48.5% Rejected God.


So I believe Jesus DIED for ALL people (Saved/not Saved) and God has given them ALL a chance to hear the Gospel and the Freedom to Accept it or Reject it.

You and many others use different sources of searching for spiritual truths, but as for myself, I believe that the scriptures prove themselves and are my only source of study.

John 6:37-39 explains who Jesus died for, and it was only for those that were called and given to Jesus by his Father, and Jesus said that he would not lose any of them, but would raise them up at the last day.

John 10:26-29, says that only his sheep hear and believe, and he gives unto them eternal life.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

It is really quite straightforward and there never should have ever been a misunderstanding. Even the lexicons confirm that "the world" means all the inhabitants of the world in this context.

And Christ actually made it eve plainer in John 3:17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Which world did God send His Son to? THE WORLD OF HUMANITY

Which world would be damned (condemned) without Christ's sacrifice? THE WORLD OF HUMANITY

Which world would be saved with the sacrifice of Christ? THE WORLD OF HUMANITY

In view of this one verse, no one one had any business playing any kind of game, particularly when the salvation of souls was at stake. But the Calvinists ignored this verse and misled the world of humanity. God will judge them for this perversion of the Gospel

The world in John 3:16 is the world of believers only. The world in John 3:16 and some others, according to Thayer's concordance, says any aggregate, or general collection of particals of any sort (world of believers only) John 1:29, 3:16, 3:17, 6:33, 12:47, 1 Cor 4:9.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

You and many others use different sources of searching for spiritual truths, but as for myself, I believe that the scriptures prove themselves and are my only source of study.

John 6:37-39 explains who Jesus died for, and it was only for those that were called and given to Jesus by his Father, and Jesus said that he would not lose any of them, but would raise them up at the last day.

John 10:26-29, says that only his sheep hear and believe, and he gives unto them eternal life.

What's another source I am using?

The Bible shows people heard the Gospel and both accepted God and Rejected God.
And we have evangelist/preachers preaching the Gospel and a team conducting surveys about those saying they either Believe or Reject the Gospel.
It ALL matches the BIBLE!!

Where YOU are trying to manipulate the Bible!

 

[selahsays]

The world in John 3:16 is the world of believers only. The world in John 3:16 and some others, according to Thayer's concordance, says any aggregate, or general collection of particals of any sort (world of believers only) John 1:29, 3:16, 3:17, 6:33, 12:47, 1 Cor 4:9.

I believe Jesus calls not only His Elect, but also those who will come after hearing the Gospel. The world, imo, is everyone. Let’s look at Ephesians ch. 1. Notice that Paul is referring to the Elect in verses 1-12. But then he refers to those who, after hearing and being taught the Gospel from the Elect, also have come to Christ.

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come. And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all. - Ephesians 1 (NKJV)

 

[Genez]

How does your post harmonize with God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son?

If God chooses who becomes Elect then why die for the whole entire World?

He died for the entire world to leave the entire world (and those who reject Him) to be without excuse.

God knows who is going to choose to believe. Those ones are the elect.

Because He died for the entire world? Those who reject are to be held without excuse.

It is not complicated once we can see how the omniscience of God operates with man.

We are to simply accept by faith that God's omniscience knows all things and can elect those whom He knows will believe.

Its when man tries to place himself into the position of where God sits, as to picture God's thinking as he imagines omniscience to be?
That is when things get very screwy.

They slam the door on God who is being at ease and sovereign, into their own uptight God of warped logic that strains to make sure everyone sees it their way. In a sense, they are as rude spiritually,. as when woke people demand we recognize their own 'preferred' gender identification. Both of those rationales are not too far apart as far as their illogical dogmatism...

And, both of those mind sets are seen as absurd by those whom God's grace imparts common sense.
Common sense based upon walking in the Spirit and Truth. Which proves it can be done.

Why some find the way to capacity for life, and others fail?

In one word. 'Stubbornness.'

A willfully self imposed short sighted stubbornness.

Spiritual warfare which we all face, is the ultimate cause for the locked down wrong choices we see in others.
Its evil telling error that its virtuous and right.

Imagine how shocked all the angels were who followed Satan, when they first discovered that their grandeur self righteous desires would doom them... They now want everyone to fail like they did. For they are jealous of those who keep following the way to life and peace.

Its why false doctrines are so insidious. They want to dupe you and to make you lose out on what they can no longer have for themselves..

grace and peace .................

 

[Genez]

You and many others use different sources of searching for spiritual truths, but as for myself, I believe that the scriptures prove themselves and are my only source of study.

But you still got to learn to know what you are doing.

​

And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. ​

It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having ​

two eyes, to be cast into hell fire. Mat 18:9​

Not to mention those who drink poison and handle snakes...

They think what they do is obvious.

 

[SomeDisciple]

Man, these predestination threads are EVERYWHERE! Worse than skeeters in July.

And for the most part; it's a worthless topic. I'd rather get a legitimate rebuke about something that I did wrong than ever see or hear this topic. It adds virtually nothing to anyone's walk with God, and edifies no one.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

He died for the entire world to leave the entire world (and those who reject Him) to be without excuse.

God knows who is going to choose to believe. Those ones are the elect.

Because He died for the entire world? Those who reject are to be held without excuse.

It is not complicated once we can see how the omniscience of God operates with man.

We are to simply accept by faith that God's omniscience knows all things and can elect those whom He knows will believe.

Its when man tries to place himself into the position of where God sits, as to picture God's thinking as he imagines omniscience to be?
That is when things get very screwy.

They slam the door on God who is being at ease and sovereign, into their own uptight God of warped logic that strains to make sure everyone sees it their way. In a sense, they are as rude spiritually,. as when woke people demand we recognize their own 'preferred' gender identification. Both of those rationales are not too far apart as far as their illogical dogmatism...

And, both of those mind sets are seen as absurd by those whom God's grace imparts common sense.
Common sense based upon walking in the Spirit and Truth. Which proves it can be done.

Why some find the way to capacity for life, and others fail?

In one word. 'Stubbornness.'

A willfully self imposed short sighted stubbornness.

Spiritual warfare which we all face, is the ultimate cause for the locked down wrong choices we see in others.
Its evil telling error that its virtuous and right.

Imagine how shocked all the angels were who followed Satan, when they first discovered that their grandeur self righteous desires would doom them... They now want everyone to fail like they did. For they are jealous of those who keep following the way to life and peace.

Its why false doctrines are so insidious. They want to dupe you and to make you lose out on what they can no longer have for themselves..

grace and peace .................

Amen!

And here's proof you can HEAR, because EVERYONE can HEAR the Gospel and Reject it.

Everyone can HEAR because those who killed Stephen purposefully STOPPED their ears. That means they were hearing until they no longer wanted to.

54 Now when they heard these things they were enraged, and they ground their teeth at him

57 But they cried out with a loud voice and stopped their ears and rushed together at him


They could HEAR and also could STOP their ears.

EVERYONE can HEAR the GOSPEL!

 

[Foghorn]

The concept of God electing those who will be saved (predestination) isn’t controversial. It is a biblical truth (John 6:44, Romans 8:28-30, Ephesians 1:4-5).

So, you agree God chose an elect?

What is controversial is how and how God chooses those who will be saved. Throughout church history, there have been two main views on the doctrine of election. One view, which we will call the prescient or foreknowledge view, teaches that God, through His omniscience, knows those who will, in the course of time, choose of their own free will to place their faith and trust in Jesus Christ for their salvation. Based on this divine foreknowledge, God elects these individuals “before the foundation of the world” (Ephesians 1:4).

And the other view is?

But when a man gets into picking winners and losers, terrible things happen in the name of the non-elect. Man can not know who elects, yet those who claim to be the "elect" will tell you who is not. Radicals move into Judgment of others. Proving they surely can't be the elect because they will be judged by the very judgment they have judged others AS Jesus said we would. The making of " the Elect " elite causes division and a lack of humility.

I find it interesting and difficult to accept anyone ewho believes themselves an elect to accuse another of not being elect. That's downright rude. I would think God knows who His chosen ones are and does not share this info to us humans.

ignoring that we have been given the ministry of reconciliation and the Power of God which is the Gospel of Jesus Christ that can SAVE.

It was God, I believe :

You believe God chose then?

For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

But what does God know? Surely, he was not serious in 1cor 1:21. The elect has always been known as the called-out Ones. God knows, and by His holy Spirit bearing record or witness with our spirit, we are the children of God.
Roman 8:16

Hmmm

 

[Foghorn]

How does your post harmonize with God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son?

Who wouldn't it harmonize?

If God chooses who becomes Elect then why die for the whole entire World?

Because the elect are born into this world and are among every tribe tongue and nation? That would equal the world, no?

 

[Foghorn]

God so loved the world of believer

Jesus did not die to redeem the sins of all mankind, if so, all mankind would have eternal life, and even you know that the scriptures do not teach that. He only died for those that God gave him (John 6:37-39).

That makes absolute sense. Tough teaching, but makes sense.

 

[Foghorn]

I feel bad for those who have no choice in what they believe or do

I believe everyone has a choice. Why not, all are held accountable. Are they not

 

[Genez]

God only elected those whom He knew would believe.

Elected them for what purpose they would serve in his plan for making his enemies into his footstool.

Why is that so difficult for some to grasp?

God saves sinners who know they are sinners.
Sinners do not have to be spiritual to know they are sinners.

One must be spiritual to grasp the spiritual realities we are shown after regeneration has set in.

Why has this truth gotten so confused?

 

[Genez]

Jesus did not die to redeem the sins of all mankind, if so, all mankind would have eternal life, and even you know that the scriptures do not teach that. He only died for those that God gave him (John 6:37-39).

Not "would have eternal life.
"Could" have eternal life.

 

[Genez]

I believe everyone has a choice. Why not, all are held accountable. Are they not

All will be evaluated and held accountable, no matter what side of redemption they find themselves standing on.

​

​

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. ​

If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, ​

their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be ​

revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has ​

been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will ​

suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.​

​

So? God has sovereignly chosen some believers to be losers?





1 Cor 3:11-15

 

[Foghorn]

God only elected those whom He knew would believe.

that would be a silly god. Actually no God at all. God only elected who He knew would believe? That's not election. that's a powerless being waiting to see what man will do first before sticking his neck out.

Why is that so difficult for some to grasp?

I'd say it's silly. Very silly.

God saves sinners who know they are sinners.
Sinners do not have to be spiritual to know they are sinners.

You mean those born into the world who stray from birth, at enmity with God, God haters as scripture teaches, who cannot even appraise spiritual things know they are sinners and care?

One must be spiritual to grasp the spiritual realities we are shown after regeneration has set in.

Sounds backward to me.

Why has this truth gotten so confused?

Perhaps because it's not truth?

 

[Aaron56]

There is a third option. The corporate view of election. God chooses those 'in Christ' to be conformed into the image of Christ. Predestination/election has to do with those 'in Christ' ( Eph 1) not the unsaved.

Exactly! We are predestined to be conformed.