God`s Appointed Time for the Rapture.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Marilyn

Well-known member
Jul 27, 2021
1,120
244
63
#41
tbey we’re still teaching it near the end of the New Testament epistles because it’s the gospel Jesus taught them



“But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭5:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they are teaching it because Jesus taught it

You never know when a thief is going to come to in the night

“And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.

Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:39-40‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:32, 35-37‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s part of the doctrine not to know , we’re suppose to live every day like Jesus can return tomorrow and keep ourselves in the light. And not be found naked and ashamed
However, Jesus the Head of the Body had MORE to say to us.

You may want to think on these scriptures -

`But you, brethren are NOT in darkness, so that this Day, (Day of the LORD in judgment) should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are NOT of the night nor of the darkness.` (1 Thess. 5: 4 & 5)

Day - sons - Body of Christ.

Night - those in darkness.


Which group are you in?
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
4,030
1,319
113
Australia
#42
There are 3 ways to interpret prophecies

Futurism
Historisism
Preterism

Only one way is correct.

I believe it is the way our church fathers did.
The other 2 were invented by Jesuits to lead people away from the truth.

The problem is that most churches today have swallowed the lie and are teaching it themselves.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
4,030
1,319
113
Australia
#43
the Futurism doctrine, also known as Futurist eschatology, was proposed by two Jesuit writers, Manuel Lacunza and Francisco Ribera, in the 16th and 18th centuries respectively.

This method of interpreting prophecy is causing people to miss the truth

The Jews missed Jesus because they were looking for the wrong person.

Because of futurism many false prophecies have failed and the truth is missed
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,801
8,618
113
#44
the Futurism doctrine, also known as Futurist eschatology, was proposed by two Jesuit writers, Manuel Lacunza and Francisco Ribera, in the 16th and 18th centuries respectively.
I don't think Paul was a Jesuit.
As for futurism, all forward-looking prophecies fall into that category.
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
3,049
1,003
113
45
#45
Hi Bruce,

Thank you for your comment. Now had you thought that Jesus was speaking to the people of Israel who were/are in darkness. However, when Jesus ascended to the Father He gave the Holy Spirit to bring us into all truth of Christ, His character and His purposes. Thus, the Head of the Body said through the Apostle Paul -

`But you brethren are NOT in darkness that this day should overtake you as a thief. You are sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.` (1 Thess. 5: 4 & 5)

And although we do not know the `day or hour,` we are told we will SEE the Day (of the Lord, judgment) approaching.

`...but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you SEE the Day (of the LORD) approaching.` (Heb. 10:25)

And what does God`s word tell us about the beginning of the Day of the Lord? Let`s look in the prophet Joel.

`Blow a trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble; for the Day of the LORD is coming, for it is at hand: a Day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, like the morning clouds spread over the mountains, a people come, great and strong, the like of whom has never been; nor will there ever be any such after them, even for many successive generations.` (Joel 2: 1 & 2)

This is what we will SEE approaching the Day of the LORD - the Russian Federation and others coming down to the Golan Heights in Israel where God will judge them. The prophet Ezekiel also has details of this time. (Ez. 38 & 39)
I'm sorry, and I know this is going to sound harsh, but I am not meaning it in a "harsh" way, just a calm direct way, but we can not take scripture and superimpose ourselves and our times on the words. That was not what these words meant when they said them back then, nor when they wrote them down. We can not just throw these things to the side, pull out our Bible and the news paper, and say that "this matches this" and "that lines up with what's happening here".

I'm not saying that things don't line up in ways and His Law always being the same and never changing along with there being nothing new under the son, that kind of thing will always happen. I don't deny any of that, but to think or suggest that when these things happen, were said, and recorded that it was just to be passed down until our time it just doesn't make sense and is not how we should approach scripture. These things were written at a particular time in history, they were said amongst a very particular people with a very particular belief system about actual things and events. We have to consider these things when reading them, who was Jesus looking into the eyes of when He was telling them about the coming end of the AGE, in Mat. and says-
"Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away."
He says this to THEM concerning everything that He had just laid out about the end of the AGE. Trying to fit Gods Holy Temple into our modern time is nonsensical in the fact that God has not ordered His people to build His temple at any point to this day, and for the Christian we know the truth that because of Jesus having come to save ALL nations and bring Gods kingdom to earth, and Him having ALL victory and is now seated at the right hand given ALL authority in Heaven and on Earth to reign until every enemy has been made a footstool for His feet, that King, THE King of kings and Lord of lords, Jesus has done all this already and did it exactly how He said He would.

Sorry, I got a little caught up in the moment because talking about His kingdom gets me excited, but my main point here is that we can't just come in and drop ourselves into the text and come out with truth. We do our best to understand His word when we get ourselves as close to the mind frame of these people in that time, and seek to understand what was being said to them and how they would have understood what was being said.

Now is this even possible to do? Not completely I guess, but to a certain degree it is absolutely possible. I am saying for sure that trying to put ourselves into the pages of the Bible is something that every generation has tried to do and so far they've been wrong, well in my opinion all that came after the first and true generation Jesus was talking to, but every generation since them that has tried to claim their generation as the one scripture was "talking to" has come up short.

Really more than this one topic being right or wrong concerning its timing, that is a very bad way to study His word. As if He is talking about "YOU" in these pages. They are not, and while His word is FOR you, and all mankind for all time, these words were not "TO" us like we plug ourselves into the story. I hope you understand what I mean here, I couldn't think of a better way to say it more clearly.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,923
2,118
113
#46
[TDW] 2) in Greek the definite article serves a couple of purposes; for one, to point BACK to something PREVIOUSLY mentioned in the text (not something further down in the text); V.1's [definite] event "fits" snugly...
Indeed it does. Contrarily, the notion of a vast failing of the Church does NOT fit. At all.
In fact this idea of "falling away from the faith" does not jive with the overall tone and tenor of 1st or 2nd Thessalonians.
Departure = rapture is the proper treatment here.
Correct! (y)

What many folks do not realize, is that Paul (in these two epistles) references our Rapture (or its effects, etc) something like 8-9 TIMES (not merely in the ONE verse that most acknowledge to be referring to it: 1Th4:17! ['caught-up']).



Paul, in these two epistles, is covering the subject of "an eschatological salvation"
("the One delivering *us* out-of THE WRATH COMING" and "For God hath not appointed *us* to wrath, but to obtain salvation [an eschatological 'salvation'] by [by means of] our Lord Jesus Christ"--and the phrase "[putting on...] for an helmet, the HOPE [sure-HOPE] of salvation"... which phrase many folks mistakenly mangle to *mean*: "Boy, I sure HOPE to [one day--in the end] have salvation, but we can't be sure... we have to make certain *we [/I]* endure unto the end, and after I die, I'll find out if I did 'good enough' to have merited this 'salvation'." But this ISN'T what this phrase in the bold MEANS. The phrase "the HOPE of salvation" is an ESCHATOLOGICAL reference... to the fact of "our Rapture" event!)

When the reader examines his SECOND epistle to the Thessalonians, a curious thing is evident... where Paul USUALLY opens his letters with "faith, love, hope," in 2Th we notice that the word "HOPE" is MISSING from the intro. This is because Paul is going to be addressing THAT ASPECT in particular in this second letter

(esp. because of a "false claim" circulating [or that could ever be circulating, even] "THAT [/purporting that] THE DAY OF THE LORD [time-period of JUDGMENTS unfolding upon the earth (what WE call "the TRIB yrs")] IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE" 2Th2:2--which would have been a REASONABLE thing for them to have been persuaded was *true* [tho false] BECAUSE of the "tribulations and persecutions YE ENDURE" 1:4 in their present and ongoing VERY NEGATIVE *experiences*. They weren't going to fall for something which had ZERO EVIDENCE in their surroundings / experiences... these people were not *buffoons*, in other words. lol)




So, a COUPLE of time (at least) in the wording PRECEDING 2Th2:3 (and the Greek word under present discussion there), Paul had ALREADY made reference to our Rapture:

--[1:7] "[ye who are troubled] REST WITH US IN THE REVELATION OF the Lord Jesus FROM HEAVEN WITH HIS *MIGHTY* angels [think: 7 Trumpets / 7 Vials] IN FLAMING FIRE [see parallel language in Lam2:3b--and note what it was concerning--speaking of A DURATION OF TIME, not a split-second moment of time] INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON [note how the wording in Luke 18:8 corresponds with Rev1:1's "[things which must come to pass] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (re: "vengeance" and re: "the 7 yr period" from 4:1 onward to chpt 19)...," that is, "ON" the SAME people that 2Th2:10-12 ALSO speaks about (when "God shall SEND TO THEM strong DELUSION, SO THAT *they* should BELIEVE THE LIE / THE FALSE / THE PSEUDEI"--during the SAME [TRIB] TIME PERIOD that chpt 1:7 was just referring to--not a split-second MOMENT of time)--IOW, *this* [God doing this] is an aspect of His "WRATH"]";


--[2:1] "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" (and we already know from his first letter that this is "TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR" when the entire Church WHICH IS HIS BODY will be "SNATCHED" in ONE-SINGULAR "snatch-action" [and where 1Th3:13 is its "destination-location," per CONTEXT]--distinct in every way from that of "Matt24:29-31 / Isaiah27:9,12-13" and THEIR "gathering" TO JERUSALEM!!! [AFTER the 70ad "scattering"--"and they shall be LED AWAY CAPTIVE into ALL THE NATIONS" per Lk21:12-24a,b--i.e. OPPOSITE ends/outcomes, in the passages re: THEM])






Bottom line: where the "definite article ['THE']" is used with this word in 2Th2:3 ("THE departure"), the definite article serves (for one thing) TO POINT BACK to something PREVIOUSLY referred to in the text (not something further down in the text), and Paul had already referred to the SUBJECT surrounding our Rapture... by 1) leaving off the word "HOPE" (coz that's going to be his SUBJECT in this 2nd letter--i.e. the FACT of "our Rapture"); 2) by referring to "REST WITH US IN..." (and using language commensurate with other scriptures speaking of time-periods of JUDGMENT unfolding); and 3) by 2:1's reference to "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" (not to mention, the NUMEROUS references to it already in his first letter to them!)






[and this is besides the point that, even before (and without) v.3, verses 1 and 2 ALONE *already* MAKE THE POINT (pre-trib Rapture), and are SUFFICIENT to grasp this, *IF* people would properly define the phrases used therein, which often times they do not, but end up CONFLATING them as I saw one particular well-known speaker do in his video that someone posted here awhile back. *sigh* lol]
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,923
2,118
113
#47
Futurism
Historisism
Preterism
Only one way is correct.

I believe it is the way our church fathers did.
Why did Irenaeus (130-202 AD) write the following (and wrote this AFTER the time that the "temple" had been destroyed):


"2. Moreover, he (the apostle) has also pointed out this which I have shown in many ways, that the temple in Jerusalem was made by the direction of the true God. For the apostle himself, speaking in his own person, distinctly called it the temple of God. Now I have shown in the third book, that no one is termed God by the apostles when speaking for themselves, except Him who truly is God, the Father of our Lord, by whose directions the temple which is at Jerusalem was constructed for those purposes which I have already mentioned; in which [temple] the enemy shall sit, endeavouring to show himself as Christ, as the Lord also declares: But when you shall see the abomination of desolation, which has been spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that reads understand), then let those who are in Judea flee into the mountains; and he who is upon the house-top, let him not come down to take anything out of his house: for there shall then be great hardship, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall be."

--Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book V, 25.2 - CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, V.25 (St. Irenaeus) (newadvent.org)





Now, Irenaeus is talking about 2Th2:4b ("the temple of God"), as CONNECTED WITH what Jesus had said in His Olivet Discourse "also"... and he's writing about this AFTER the "temple" was destroyed in the 70ad events (yet is speaking of it as being yet "future").

Why is that?
 

Marilyn

Well-known member
Jul 27, 2021
1,120
244
63
#48
I'm sorry, and I know this is going to sound harsh, but I am not meaning it in a "harsh" way, just a calm direct way, but we can not take scripture and superimpose ourselves and our times on the words. That was not what these words meant when they said them back then, nor when they wrote them down. We can not just throw these things to the side, pull out our Bible and the news paper, and say that "this matches this" and "that lines up with what's happening here".
I agree Jimbone,

Huh, you may say. Well, God`s word is mainly about Israel and God`s festivals for them. They (festivals) are God`s timeline for Israel. Each will be fulfilled by the Lord.

The Body of Christ, however, is a parathesis, between God`s dealings with Israel and the nations. It is quite obvious in our time that Israel is now back in their own land, and with most of the world against it they will need to cry out to God as the northern army descends. This is prophesied in the OT. You see some prophecies were for the time written and some are for Israel`s future as God indicates.

So, it behooves us to SEE what God is doing in the world, (nations & Israel) and not be taken unawares as the Head of the Body warns us. (1 Thess. 5: 4 & 5)
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,801
8,618
113
#49
Paul, in these two epistles, is covering the subject of "an eschatological salvation"
("the One delivering *us* out-of THE WRATH COMING" and "For God hath not appointed *us* to wrath, but to obtain salvation [an eschatological 'salvation'] by [by means of] our Lord Jesus Christ"--and the phrase "[putting on...] for an helmet, the HOPE [sure-HOPE] of salvation"... which phrase many folks mistakenly mangle to *mean*: "Boy, I sure HOPE to [one day--in the end] have salvation, but we can't be sure... we have to make certain *we [/I]* endure unto the end, and after I die, I'll find out if I did 'good enough' to have merited this 'salvation'." But this ISN'T what this phrase in the bold MEANS. The phrase "the HOPE of salvation" is an ESCHATOLOGICAL reference... to the fact of "our Rapture" event!)
Yes yes yes.

Two distinct eschatological pathways.

One for the Church, the rapture. That which punctuates the gospel to the Church aka the book of John.
Destination: the Fathers house, an infallible reference the preceding "snatching" of the Bride.
No indication whatsoever of wrath, tribulation or distress upon the Church, the Bride.

And one for Israel so noted in the other gospels and further elaborated upon intensively and voluminously in the OT.
Indicating vast cosmos shattering wrath and judgements meted out upon the whole world, Jew and gentile alike.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,801
8,618
113
#50
I agree Jimbone,

Huh, you may say. Well, God`s word is mainly about Israel and God`s festivals for them. They (festivals) are God`s timeline for Israel. Each will be fulfilled by the Lord.

The Body of Christ, however, is a parathesis, between God`s dealings with Israel and the nations. It is quite obvious in our time that Israel is now back in their own land, and with most of the world against it they will need to cry out to God as the northern army descends. This is prophesied in the OT. You see some prophecies were for the time written and some are for Israel`s future as God indicates.

So, it behooves us to SEE what God is doing in the world, (nations & Israel) and not be taken unawares as the Head of the Body warns us. (1 Thess. 5: 4 & 5)
Interestingly, at this juncture in history, it is the BRIDE alone who recognizes the TRUE eschatological situation of the WIFE.
And after the RAPTURE, it is the WIFE who will first recognize the eschatological phenomenon that has just occurred to the BRIDE.
 

Marilyn

Well-known member
Jul 27, 2021
1,120
244
63
#51
Interestingly, at this juncture in history, it is the BRIDE alone who recognizes the TRUE eschatological situation of the WIFE.
And after the RAPTURE, it is the WIFE who will first recognize the eschatological phenomenon that has just occurred to the BRIDE.
Hi cv5,

Although we agree on much, as to this point `bride,` I believe God`s word says it is Israel. Oh, and reading your comment again more slowly I realize that you think we are the bride and Israel is the wife. Well, we are halfway there.