Free Will - A More Exhaustive Look
- Thread starter 2ndTimothyGroup
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Utterly perplexing. Please explain what the below Scripture means to you:
"I will make people throughout the earth terrified because of you."
Is there anyone that can "make" you think a certain way? Who has the ability to grab ahold of your emotions and cause fear or happiness in your heart?
NKJV: 'This day I will begin to put the dread and fear of you upon the nations under the whole heaven, who shall hear the report of you, and shall tremble and be in anguish because of you.'
NLT - 25 "Beginning today I will make people throughout the earth terrified because of you. When they hear reports about you, they will tremble with dread and fear.'"
Deuteronomy 2:25 NET - "This very day I will begin to fill all the people of the earth with dread and to terrify them when they hear about you. They will shiver and shake in anticipation of your approach."
Virtually all translations say the same thing, which is that God caused the world to think and feel a certain way about the Jews. Even the Jewish Tanakh conveys this idea.
The Jews were a small nation and without a significant military presence. And more, they were fighting giants. God did this to display His Power. For the life of me, I cannot understand how you, and most who are posting (here) can miss this obvious fact.
"I will make people throughout the earth terrified because of you."
Is there anyone that can "make" you think a certain way? Who has the ability to grab ahold of your emotions and cause fear or happiness in your heart?
NKJV: 'This day I will begin to put the dread and fear of you upon the nations under the whole heaven, who shall hear the report of you, and shall tremble and be in anguish because of you.'
NLT - 25 "Beginning today I will make people throughout the earth terrified because of you. When they hear reports about you, they will tremble with dread and fear.'"
Deuteronomy 2:25 NET - "This very day I will begin to fill all the people of the earth with dread and to terrify them when they hear about you. They will shiver and shake in anticipation of your approach."
Virtually all translations say the same thing, which is that God caused the world to think and feel a certain way about the Jews. Even the Jewish Tanakh conveys this idea.
The Jews were a small nation and without a significant military presence. And more, they were fighting giants. God did this to display His Power. For the life of me, I cannot understand how you, and most who are posting (here) can miss this obvious fact.
Next on the timeline, chronological list:
Psalm 106:46-47 ESV - "He caused them to be pitied by all those who held them captive. 47 Save us, O LORD our God, and gather us from among the nations, that we may give thanks to your holy name and glory in your praise."
It is clear that God has assumed control of the minds of all who would take the Jews captive. God would cause these captors' hearts to pity the Jews . . . and so what does this say about the free will of the captors? If their hearts and minds have been predisposed to think and act as they did, how can we say that this massive group of captors was not influenced beyond their own will . . . and by God Himself? The bottom line is this: The Lord makes it abundantly clear that He accepts full responsibility for causing a massive group of people to think and behave in a specific way so as to prepare the Jews to leave Egypt.
In looking at these two verses, it seems reasonable and wise to remember that whenever God "causes" something to happen, such as changing the hearts and minds of people, this is done to meet a need, or more specifically, a Plan. Think about it: If God has a Will and if we have a will, which of the two “Wills” will win out? Is the will of man more potent than the Will of God? How can we say that when the Lord Wills something to be done, how can our lowly “will” be more powerful and effective than His?
The only way that God can have a pre-written, Eternal Plan is if He is in control over all things . . . including each of us and our entire lives. God allowed Satan to “sift” Job, but the only boundary that God had placed upon Job is that the Devil could not kill him. So, who was really in control over the things that happened to Job? Indeed, God Himself. The Lord set the boundaries knowing full well what the Devil would do to Job, his wife, family, and belongings. God knew that Satan could sift Job because Job was being led (controlled) by the Holy Spirit within him. God always knew that Job would be successful; hence the Lord allowed Job to be sifted, and so it goes the other direction for those whose minds are controlled by the Devil.
Romans 8:7 CSB - "The mind-set of the flesh is hostile to God because it does not submit to God's law. Indeed, it is unable to do so."
But this form of pity to be placed upon Israel from their captors . . . this form of Mind Control is about sensitivity. Our God is so Powerful that he can cause the Evil captors of Israel to feel compassion for them. Imagine that! An entire Nation of people were compelled to think of (and relate to) each Israelite in a kind and loving way. Doesn’t this predisposition fly in the face of Evil slavery? Yes, it certainly does. But God has been causing humanity to think and feel in specific ways from the beginning. For the Lord has an Eternal Plan, and it will not be thwarted nor overturned according to His level of Power and Control.
Ephesians 3 10-11 . . . K J V: - “To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord . . .”
That “manifold wisdom” is a most interesting way of saying, “Power.” So the idea behind this passage is that the Evil and fallen principalities and “powers” that are outside of the physical world, God's unbelievable Power is put on display for them to witness. That is right . . . all of these Evil principalities and rulers in the heavenly realms, they are being placed on full notice of the Power of God . . . and that their demise is short-lived.
Psalm 106:46-47 ESV - "He caused them to be pitied by all those who held them captive. 47 Save us, O LORD our God, and gather us from among the nations, that we may give thanks to your holy name and glory in your praise."
It is clear that God has assumed control of the minds of all who would take the Jews captive. God would cause these captors' hearts to pity the Jews . . . and so what does this say about the free will of the captors? If their hearts and minds have been predisposed to think and act as they did, how can we say that this massive group of captors was not influenced beyond their own will . . . and by God Himself? The bottom line is this: The Lord makes it abundantly clear that He accepts full responsibility for causing a massive group of people to think and behave in a specific way so as to prepare the Jews to leave Egypt.
In looking at these two verses, it seems reasonable and wise to remember that whenever God "causes" something to happen, such as changing the hearts and minds of people, this is done to meet a need, or more specifically, a Plan. Think about it: If God has a Will and if we have a will, which of the two “Wills” will win out? Is the will of man more potent than the Will of God? How can we say that when the Lord Wills something to be done, how can our lowly “will” be more powerful and effective than His?
The only way that God can have a pre-written, Eternal Plan is if He is in control over all things . . . including each of us and our entire lives. God allowed Satan to “sift” Job, but the only boundary that God had placed upon Job is that the Devil could not kill him. So, who was really in control over the things that happened to Job? Indeed, God Himself. The Lord set the boundaries knowing full well what the Devil would do to Job, his wife, family, and belongings. God knew that Satan could sift Job because Job was being led (controlled) by the Holy Spirit within him. God always knew that Job would be successful; hence the Lord allowed Job to be sifted, and so it goes the other direction for those whose minds are controlled by the Devil.
Romans 8:7 CSB - "The mind-set of the flesh is hostile to God because it does not submit to God's law. Indeed, it is unable to do so."
But this form of pity to be placed upon Israel from their captors . . . this form of Mind Control is about sensitivity. Our God is so Powerful that he can cause the Evil captors of Israel to feel compassion for them. Imagine that! An entire Nation of people were compelled to think of (and relate to) each Israelite in a kind and loving way. Doesn’t this predisposition fly in the face of Evil slavery? Yes, it certainly does. But God has been causing humanity to think and feel in specific ways from the beginning. For the Lord has an Eternal Plan, and it will not be thwarted nor overturned according to His level of Power and Control.
Ephesians 3 10-11 . . . K J V: - “To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord . . .”
That “manifold wisdom” is a most interesting way of saying, “Power.” So the idea behind this passage is that the Evil and fallen principalities and “powers” that are outside of the physical world, God's unbelievable Power is put on display for them to witness. That is right . . . all of these Evil principalities and rulers in the heavenly realms, they are being placed on full notice of the Power of God . . . and that their demise is short-lived.
Free will is the freedom to choose between available options. That's all. And everyone therefore has free will.
This is not true. There is no biblical teaching that supports this. In fact, the Bible teaches that all can believe. That is why Paul wrote Titus 2:11.
Yep. That's part of it. We also freely choose to believe the gospel promise that is offered to everyone. Titus 2:11
This occurs as a result of saving faith in Christ, which faith comes from our heart, per Rom 10:10.
This is not true. There is no biblical teaching that supports this. In fact, the Bible teaches that all can believe. That is why Paul wrote Titus 2:11.
Yep. That's part of it. We also freely choose to believe the gospel promise that is offered to everyone. Titus 2:11
This occurs as a result of saving faith in Christ, which faith comes from our heart, per Rom 10:10.
FreeGrace2 said:
As one who ardently believes in free will, I think the first thing is to define it. ... Free will means the freedom to choose between available options. The key here is the word "available". To be an option, there has to be at least 2 of them. And the person is free to choose either one. That is all free will is.
I mean all our choices are free. But the key is about choices that are available. I could choose to eat filet mignon every night, but if I can't afford to buy that steak, I can't really choose to eat it.
That is certainly ok.
Again, free will is only about choices that are available to choose from.
Regardless of how much I want to change the weather, I have no choice to do so. So, those factors really have nothing to do with our will anyway. Kinda like a red herring. Irrelevant.
Calvinists claim that man is unable to freely believe on Christ in their lost and "totally depraved" condition. That is unbiblical nonsense.
Men believe from their heart, per Rom 10:9 or 10.
Being "totally depraved" only means that man is unable to save himself. And when man FREELY believes, it is God who saves him. 1 Cor 1:21.
As one who ardently believes in free will, I think the first thing is to define it. ... Free will means the freedom to choose between available options. The key here is the word "available". To be an option, there has to be at least 2 of them. And the person is free to choose either one. That is all free will is.
I mean all our choices are free. But the key is about choices that are available. I could choose to eat filet mignon every night, but if I can't afford to buy that steak, I can't really choose to eat it.
That is certainly ok.
Again, free will is only about choices that are available to choose from.
Regardless of how much I want to change the weather, I have no choice to do so. So, those factors really have nothing to do with our will anyway. Kinda like a red herring. Irrelevant.
Calvinists claim that man is unable to freely believe on Christ in their lost and "totally depraved" condition. That is unbiblical nonsense.
Men believe from their heart, per Rom 10:9 or 10.
Being "totally depraved" only means that man is unable to save himself. And when man FREELY believes, it is God who saves him. 1 Cor 1:21.
-
1
- Show all
FreeGrace2 said:
It goes both ways. Yes, everyone chooses to sin. But, salvation is based on being free to believe the gospel.
Not exactly. Believers are commanded to obey God. Paul wrote about this choice we have in Romans 6:16 - Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
This was written to believers.
That is our choice. But it's not a "one and done" kind of choice. We face this choice not only daily, but constantly. The devil never ceases to attack. The Bible tells us to resist the devil. That is a choice. The Bible tells us to be filled with the Spirit, which it seems very few believers even understand that. And that is a choice.
The sin nature is IN IN IN us. So we CAN and DO "serve ourselves" when we become self-centered.
Excuse me, but all the verbs are in the present tense. This is NOT an historical present. He was talking about his present struggles.
That is why he wrote that he IS the greatest of sinners in 1 Tim 1:15. Again, present tense.
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.
He wrote "I AM", not I was".
It goes both ways. Yes, everyone chooses to sin. But, salvation is based on being free to believe the gospel.
Not exactly. Believers are commanded to obey God. Paul wrote about this choice we have in Romans 6:16 - Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
This was written to believers.
That is our choice. But it's not a "one and done" kind of choice. We face this choice not only daily, but constantly. The devil never ceases to attack. The Bible tells us to resist the devil. That is a choice. The Bible tells us to be filled with the Spirit, which it seems very few believers even understand that. And that is a choice.
The sin nature is IN IN IN us. So we CAN and DO "serve ourselves" when we become self-centered.
Excuse me, but all the verbs are in the present tense. This is NOT an historical present. He was talking about his present struggles.
That is why he wrote that he IS the greatest of sinners in 1 Tim 1:15. Again, present tense.
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.
He wrote "I AM", not I was".
Are you saying that you don't understand that the verse you are posting says because of the reports that they will hear about how God is fighting for them they will be terrified? What do you think the other nations in Canaan thought when they heard the details about how Jericho was defeated? They heard that report and trembled. That is not taking away anyone's free will and forcing them to think something.
Are you suggesting that they trembled or were terrified because of no other reason than God took away their free will? That is not a logical concept. The verse says it is because they would hear of the report. So why are you ignoring that important fact and imagining that they were terrified without any knowledge of what God was doing for Israel?
The author is not trying to communicate that people will not have free will. You are. The author is plainly saying that because of what God is going to do in fighting for them, the other nations will hear about it, and they will be terrified knowing that they will suffer the same defeat. That has nothing to do with forcing an emotion as you are suggesting.
I get the vibe that you are suggesting that you think that when these other nations heard the word Jew they wet their pants and did not know why? Like "what is a Jew? and why did I just wet my pants?" That is not what this verse is saying. "they would hear of the reports" those are reports about the battles they would win as they defeated each nation in the promised land, like Jericho.
Imagine what the neighboring nations in the path of Israel would think when they heard about the walls and the slaughter afterwards. "We don't stand a chance" is what they would think after such a report came to their ears. Free will is not taken from them. And not mentioned anywhere in the text. And this idea of yours does not enter the normal readers mind. It isn't a logical concept. Hearing about the reports of how God was fighting for them and knowing that you are next, and being afraid is logical. But saying that God would force them to be afraid by taking away their free will is not being communicated in the text. And it is a weird idea.
Just plain weird.
But I should be patient with people on CC. I don't know them and there could be reasons why they don't appear to have normal reading comprehension skills. So I apologize if I am being too harsh.
Are you suggesting that they trembled or were terrified because of no other reason than God took away their free will? That is not a logical concept. The verse says it is because they would hear of the report. So why are you ignoring that important fact and imagining that they were terrified without any knowledge of what God was doing for Israel?
The author is not trying to communicate that people will not have free will. You are. The author is plainly saying that because of what God is going to do in fighting for them, the other nations will hear about it, and they will be terrified knowing that they will suffer the same defeat. That has nothing to do with forcing an emotion as you are suggesting.
I get the vibe that you are suggesting that you think that when these other nations heard the word Jew they wet their pants and did not know why? Like "what is a Jew? and why did I just wet my pants?" That is not what this verse is saying. "they would hear of the reports" those are reports about the battles they would win as they defeated each nation in the promised land, like Jericho.
Imagine what the neighboring nations in the path of Israel would think when they heard about the walls and the slaughter afterwards. "We don't stand a chance" is what they would think after such a report came to their ears. Free will is not taken from them. And not mentioned anywhere in the text. And this idea of yours does not enter the normal readers mind. It isn't a logical concept. Hearing about the reports of how God was fighting for them and knowing that you are next, and being afraid is logical. But saying that God would force them to be afraid by taking away their free will is not being communicated in the text. And it is a weird idea.
Just plain weird.
But I should be patient with people on CC. I don't know them and there could be reasons why they don't appear to have normal reading comprehension skills. So I apologize if I am being too harsh.
@Live4Him3
It's unfortunate that you feel the need to give a thumbs down. Would the below Scripture give you reason, perhaps, to change your mind?
Deuteronomy 29:4 NLT - 4 "But to this day the LORD has not given you minds that understand, nor eyes that see, nor ears that hear!"
Deut 29:4 completely destroys the idea that we are "free" to think as we wish, for even if these people wanted to understand, they would not be able to, for their minds must be enabled by the Circumcision of Christ.
Paul makes this general idea clear about Israel:
Romans 11:7-8 NLT - "So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the hearts of the rest were hardened. As the Scriptures say, "God has put them into a deep sleep. To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see, and closed their ears so they do not hear."
Rom 11 above, and to this day, is as relevant as ever. For the most part, the entire nation of the Blessed Jews still have not been given eyes to see and recognize Jesus as their Lord and Savior. But, there will be a day when, in fact, they will be enabled to "see." If this is True, how can they have the free will to choose Christ if they are not allowed to understand?
It's unfortunate that you feel the need to give a thumbs down. Would the below Scripture give you reason, perhaps, to change your mind?
Deuteronomy 29:4 NLT - 4 "But to this day the LORD has not given you minds that understand, nor eyes that see, nor ears that hear!"
Deut 29:4 completely destroys the idea that we are "free" to think as we wish, for even if these people wanted to understand, they would not be able to, for their minds must be enabled by the Circumcision of Christ.
Paul makes this general idea clear about Israel:
Romans 11:7-8 NLT - "So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the hearts of the rest were hardened. As the Scriptures say, "God has put them into a deep sleep. To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see, and closed their ears so they do not hear."
Rom 11 above, and to this day, is as relevant as ever. For the most part, the entire nation of the Blessed Jews still have not been given eyes to see and recognize Jesus as their Lord and Savior. But, there will be a day when, in fact, they will be enabled to "see." If this is True, how can they have the free will to choose Christ if they are not allowed to understand?
Paul refutes your teaching clearly. Are you not familiar with the below teaching?
2 Timothy 2:26 NIV - 26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will."
Anyone who still has Satan as their Spiritual Father is unable to choose to do what is right. Are you not familiar with the Purpose, Work, and Effect of Christ? These three elements are the utter core of the entire Bible.
2 Timothy 2:26 NIV - 26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will."
Anyone who still has Satan as their Spiritual Father is unable to choose to do what is right. Are you not familiar with the Purpose, Work, and Effect of Christ? These three elements are the utter core of the entire Bible.
Well, it may be in you, but it was removed by Jesus (from my heart). Are you saying that you have not had the Sinful Nature removed by Christ so that you would become Transformed?
Colossians 2:11 NLT - "When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature."
If you don't feel that you have been spared of the Sinful Nature, I am encouraging you to beg Christ that this Operation of Faith be completed to your heart. Without it, there is no hope.
Colossians 2:11 NLT - "When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature."
If you don't feel that you have been spared of the Sinful Nature, I am encouraging you to beg Christ that this Operation of Faith be completed to your heart. Without it, there is no hope.
Actually, it appears that you are not understanding their fear. They, perhaps, are afraid because they may have heard that God caused them to turn their swords upon each other. They are afraid because of how God will confuse their minds, causing them to kill each other. This is the Lord's Mind Control. Surely, your Bible contains these texts.