Free Will - A More Exhaustive Look

[Thewatchman]

When did the Eternal Purpose, or Plan begin? Did it at least begin in Genesis chapter 3?

Long before that. It started back At the very begining of Genesis 1:1.
Proverbs 3:19-26


19The LORD founded the earth by wisdom


and established the heavens by understanding.


20By His knowledge the watery depths were broken open,


and the clouds dripped with dew.


21My son, do not lose sight of this:


Preserve sound judgment and discernment.


22They will be life to your soul


and adornment to your neck.


23Then you will go on your way in safety,


and your foot will not stumble.


24When you lie down, you will not be afraid;


when you rest, your sleep will be sweet.


25Do not fear sudden danger


or the ruin that overtakes the wicked,


26for the LORD will be your confidence


and will keep your foot from the snare.





God begin His eternal plan before the world ever was. So stated in verse 19. If we gain His wisdom and understanding (not the worlds not Satan's, not traditions of men or church doctrine) We get to go forward in safety, our foot will not stumble. We will not be afraid when we rest and our sleep will be sweet. We do not have to fear sudden danger; or the ruin of the wicked. Why? For the LORD will be your confidence


and will keep your foot from the snare.





Lets go to Job. Job has put up with 37 chapters of being told this happened to you because of some hidden sin. Job begin to feel sorry for himself. He forgot that God was with him.


Then in chapter 38 God shows up in the same way He will in Ezekiel for this happened way before that.


What does God tell him to do. Verse 3. Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. God said “Job pick yourself up put on your big boy paints we are going to have a talk.” Then God starts to question Job.


Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.


5who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;


Did God ask this of Job knowing he had no understanding of what He was talking about or did Job have some knowledge about it.


7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?


Who are the morning stars, who are the sons of God. They are all His children and His angles and the 2 Cherubim that protected the mercy seat. We know that one of the Cherubim was Satan. So this took place before Genesis 1:2





Proverbs 8


22The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.


23I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.


24When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.


25Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:


26While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.


27When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:


28When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:


29When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:


30Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;


31Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.


32Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.


33Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.


34Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.


35For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.


36But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.


So to answer your question; When did the Eternal Purpose, or Plan begin? It Began when God did. Hen was that? Only God knows but long before Genesis 3. Before the first earth age when the dinosaurs lived. There were no dinosaurs on the ark.


This is a lie put forth by man that comes straight from the mouth of Satan


The story we have all heard is that dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago and therefore weren’t around when Noah and company set sail on the Ark around 4,300 years ago.[Editor’s Note (July 2016): See the latest research by AiG’s Ark Encounter researchers on Ark animals, size, logistics, and other details at ArkEncounter.com.]The story we have all heard from movies, television, newspapers, and most magazines and textbooks is that dinosaurs “ruled the Earth” for 140 million years, died out 65 million years ago, and therefore weren’t around when Noah and company set sail on the Ark around 4,300 years ago.However, the Bible gives a completely different view of Earth (and therefore, dinosaur) history. As God’s written Word to us, we can trust it to tell the truth about the past. (For more information about the reliability of Scripture, see

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

God begin His eternal plan before the world ever was.

Absolutely . . . it's good to see that one of us has had their mind open to understanding such a concept. While I understand that our minds must be opened to understanding these things, to me, it is just so incredibly simple.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

In the Isaiah text below from Day 198 of the timeline, chronological reading plan, we have yet another remarkable set of Scripture that shows that God has a Plan for the entire world and that He alone is in complete control over it. Even more, no mere, meager human possesses the power to change or alter that Plan. If this is the case, how can anyone claim that they are free to do as they wish? How can our Powerful, Almighty God have an unalterable Plan, yet we humans believe that we are free to do whatever we think and desire? This notion is illogical. It is as if the bulk of the members of this forum/site believe in the following:

God: "You are free to do whatever you desire, but you cannot change or alter the Plans I have for you. You're free to do whatever you want, but you WILL do what I have planned for you." – Again, this concept is impossible. Read the Isaiah text below for yourself . . . and any translation will suffice:

Isaiah 14:24-27 NLT – "The LORD of Heaven's Armies has sworn this oath: "It will all happen as I have planned. It will be as I have decided. I will break the Assyrians when they are in Israel; I will trample them on my mountains. My people will no longer be their slaves nor bow down under their heavy loads. I have a plan for the whole earth, a hand of judgment upon all the nations. The LORD of Heaven's Armies has spoken--who can change his plans? When his hand is raised, who can stop him?"

Because many (here) believe in "free will," are these Scriptures wrong? Were the Assyrians actually free to do whatever they desired? Could they have chosen a path other than the one the Lord had pre-Planned? Were the Assyrians free to select from a vast myriad of directions for the welfare of their Nation? Or were the Assyrians (and their outcome) going to be exactly as the Lord had Planned and willed?

Isaiah 55:8 says: "For my Plans are not your plans, nor are my ways your ways."

Let's slow down and think about this for a moment . . . What is the [heart] of the Bible? The answer: Colossians 2:9-15. Below is a portion of that text set:

Colossians 2:11, 13 NLT - 11 "When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature."... 13 "You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins."

Suppose we process Isaiah 14:24-27 through Colossians 2:9-15. In that case, the Assyrian Nation becomes representative of the Sinful Nature, for the Assyrians will be defeated, trampled down, and removed in victory, just as the Sinful Nature is cut away from a person's heart.

Colossians 2:15 NLT – "In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross."

So why wouldn't these passages be referencing "Circumcision of heart"? Do not Ephesians chapters 1 through 3 outline this Holy Plan? The Plan behind the Ephesian texts is that the entire world would have the opportunity to Know Christ. God plans that the world as a whole would be reconciled through Christ. What does this mean? It means that the Devil will be trampled down in the lives of His Holy Elect. It means that the Devil will be crushed.

Ephesians 2:1-13 states (clearly) that the Devil and his minions will be made a spectacle; therefore, the Assyrian being trampled is equivalent to the Devil being trampled down or, made a spectacle. This is the "yoke" that must be broken. Is there a greater yoke than the Sinful Nature, the motor that causes an unregenerate person to sin? Yes, this burden will be removed from our shoulders or, disassociated from our hearts.

Verse 26 from the Isaiah text above says, "This is the Plan determined for the whole world; this is the "hand" that is stretched out over all nations." And it is the "hands" of Christ that performs His Holy Operation. The Hands of Christ are available to all Nations. And just as Scripture states, this is His Purposed Plan; hence, who can thwart Him? Who can turn back the Grace of God? Is Saul, the Christian killer, capable of doing so? If Saul could block the Grace of God, persecuting the Lord's Holy Children would be the way to do it; however, God's Grace for Saul was Pure. Christ placed His Holy Hands upon Saul's heart, who became transformed and renamed to the Apostle Paul shortly after that.

Think about it . . . is the following Scripture not describing precisely what happened to Saul?

Exo 33:19 – "God will give His Grace and Mercy to anyone He chooses."

And what is this Gracious act of Mercy? It is the primary act of lifting the disabling Curse that points to Adam and Eve so that he, Saul, could be caused to understand the Truth. Without the lifting of this Curse, no human is capable of Understanding God's Truth or possessing His Holy Wisdom. Without the lifting of the Curse, no one is capable of freely choosing to do as they wish. It is impossible.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Ah, good ol' Isaiah and his written Word. The things that God said to Isaiah are utterly astonishing. And once again, we find God taking control over the minds of the Egyptians. How many? How about the entire Nation.

NLT - 2 "I will make Egyptian fight against Egyptian--brother against brother, neighbor against neighbor, city against city, province against province. 3 The Egyptians will lose heart, and I will confuse their plans. They will plead with their idols for wisdom and call on spirits, mediums, and those who consult the spirits of the dead. 4 I will hand Egypt over to a hard, cruel master. A fierce king will rule them," says the Lord, the LORD of Heaven's Armies." ... 8 "The fishermen will lament for lack of work. Those who cast hooks into the Nile will groan, and those who use nets will lose heart." ... 10 "They will be in despair, and all the workers will be sick at heart."

How does the Lord make all of these things happen if He does not take control over the collective minds of the Egyptian Nation? Would brother really hate brother if it were not for the Power of God? If it were not by and through the Plan of God, would these things happen? Answer: If these events [would] happen outside of the Power of God, then why would the Lord pre-Plan them to happen?

The Truth is, is that God is continually showing us how He takes control over the human mind, as the above story proves.

Now, where is the free will of the Egyptians? If they had free choice to choose, would a warrior turn against their fellow warrior? Would brother turn against brother? Would neighbors really turn against each other? And what about city against city; province against province? Once again, we find the Lord will cause the Egyptians to become confused regarding their plans. After all, would you say that the entire Nation has been thrust into confusion against itself? Or do you believe that warrior killing co-warrior is normative? What about brother against brother, etc.?

And what happened to the fish in the Nile River? Look at the Omniscient control our Powerful God has over all creation! There is absolutely no doubt about it . . . our God controls all things.

Ezekiel 28:24 NLT – "No longer will Israel's scornful neighbors prick and tear at her like briers and thorns. For then they will know that I am the Sovereign LORD."

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

There are plenty more of these stories to go before I "exhaust" the Biblical evidence that exposes the potentially false concept of "free will."

And it should become most clear that my ideas regarding "free will" are not without warrant. It is amazing how the Control of God over His creation is rejected so that we, as individuals, can retain our belief in self-empowerment.

 

[FreeGrace2]

There are plenty more of these stories to go before I "exhaust" the Biblical evidence that exposes the potentially false concept of "free will."

you've shown no such thing. You have revealed your own flawed view of what "free will" actually is.

Once you understand (if you all) what free will really means, there is no problem in Scripture.

But as long as you continue to believe that God is simply a Grand Puppetmaster, you'll never grasp the truth.

And it should become most clear that my ideas regarding "free will" are not without warrant.

It totally IS without warrant.

It is amazing how the Control of God over His creation is rejected so that we, as individuals, can retain our belief in self-empowerment.

Yes, God is over His creation. And as far back as Genesis 3 we see that God gave Adam and the woman (as yet unnamed) the freedom to choose whether to eat or not of the forbidden fruit. If man didn't have that freedom, then who caused him to eat the fruit that God told him NOT TO??

I'll bet you don't have a reasonable answer.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Day 198 of the timeline, chronological reading plan certainly has something interesting to say about the sense of free will for Egypt. And haven’t I shown this over, and over, and over again? Check this out:

Isaiah 19:14-15 NLT – “The LORD has sent a spirit of foolishness on them, so all their suggestions are wrong. They cause Egypt to stagger like a drunk in his vomit. There is nothing Egypt can do. All are helpless--the head and the tail, the noble palm branch and the lowly reed.”

Is this free will? Would these people be foolish if the Lord had not caused them to be? Would these people offer suggestions of foolishness if the Lord had not caused them to occur? And why are they helpless? Is it of their own choices that they are helpless, or is their state of helplessness because God is the generating cause?

What do these Scriptures tell us?

• The Lord caused a sense of foolishness to occupy the minds of the Egyptians
• God controlled the minds of the Egyptians SO THAT each of the things they suggest are wrong.
• There is nothing Egypt can do.

Hello! There is nothing that Egypt can do about this massive problem, including making their own choices regarding matters that involve each of them personally.

How do YOU know that this is not happening to you? How do you know, with absolute certainty, that God is not controlling you as He controlled Egypt, over and over and over again?

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Power. Control. The Eternal Plan. Over and over again I have provided Scriptures that conclusively prove that this is what the Bible is about, to the degree that the Lord controls the minds and actions of not only humans, but animals and even creation itself. All things are under the Power and control of the Lord.

Isaiah 26:12 NKJV – “LORD, You will establish peace for us, For You have also done all our works in us.”

How could it possibly be said that the works of the Israelite Nation are by the Lord, yet they possessed the choice to do the things referred to as works? Wouldn’t this be in reference to the fact that God caused warrior to turn against their co-warrior? Wouldn’t this refer to causing the Egyptians to happily give Israel their silver, gold, and fine linens, to be openly plundered in broad daylight just before leaving Egypt? Wouldn’t this be referring to the prayers of David as he called upon God to cause the plans of his enemies to be frustrated? Wouldn’t this be referring to causing general confusion over, and over again?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Power. Control. The Eternal Plan. Over and over again I have provided Scriptures that conclusively prove that this is what the Bible is about, to the degree that the Lord controls the minds and actions of not only humans, but animals and even creation itself. All things are under the Power and control of the Lord.

I don't think any believer in Christ believes that God isn't omnipotent and sovereign over His creation.

However, the real issue here is whether God created mankind with "free will" or not. Calvinists go to great lengths to try to prove otherwise, as the paragraph above insinuates by "to the degree that the Lord controls the minds and actions of not only humans, but animals and even creation itself".

If humans don't have "free will", then EVERY action and thought by humans comes from God Himself. All the evil, depravity, etc.

And that's where Calvinists have a huge problem. What they fail to accept, or even understand, is that "free will" is nothing more than the FREEDOM of choice. When faced with available options, man is free to choose either one.

So, for the gosple, a choice is given: to either believe the promise of salvation by faith or to reject it.

But, since Calvinists also fail to properly understand total depravity, they must demand that man cannot choose. They simply go too far in the doctrine of depravity. All it biblically means is that man is UNABLE to save himself. Or that man cannot EARN salvation by his own efforts. It does not mean that man is unable to understand and believe the gospel. That's where calvinists go off the rails.

When total depravity is properly (biblically) understood, the TULIP wilts.

Unconditional election is to service, not salvation. And every believer IS elected for service. So, yes, election is unconditional in that every believer is chosen for service.

Limited atonement is false because there are many verses that plainly show that Jesus died for everyone.

Irresistible grace is false because man is able to reject the gospel message of grace.

With the "P", there are 2 ideas:
1. preservation. This is eternal security and is biblical.
2. perseverance of the saints. This unbiblical doctrine teaches that "true" believers will not and cannot leave the faith. This is not eternal security. And it is false. Jesus taught in the parable of the soils of a believer who only "believed for a while" and then "fell away", so it is certainly possible for a believer to fail to endure, fail to remain in the faith. But is still saved.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Day 200 of the timeline, chronological reading plan certainly offers an interesting story. Most people believe that Israel refused to obey; to do the Will of the Lord as they followed their own will. That certainly is NOT the case below.

2 Chronicles 30:12 KJV – “Also in Judah the hand of God was to give them one heart to do the commandment of the king and of the princes, by the word of the LORD.”

Is Isreal known for disobedience? Of course . . . that is obvious. But here, we find that God actually caused all of Israel to have one mind, and that would be a mind of obedience to attend the Passover. Isn’t that something . . . Israel, with their own free will, refused to obey (as most claim), yet here, we find that God controls the collective mind of Israel to actually the commandment of king Hezekiah . . . and they do it.

Are we really going to say that Israel, with its own sense of "free will" chose to obey the commandment of the king when Scripture clearly states the opposite? At what point do we begin to believe what the Bible says instead of twisting it to mean what we want it to mean so as to justify our sinful lives (those of you who have yet to be Transformed?).

Without question, God has the ability to cause an entire group of people to think together, in unison with one another so as to achieve a very specific goal and Plan.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Day 201 of the timeline, chronological reading plan sheds some interesting light on this matter of “free will.” Check this out:

Hosea 4:12 NIV – “My people consult a wooden idol, and a diviner’s rod speaks to them. A spirit of prostitution leads them astray; they are unfaithful to their God.”

Israel has prostituted itself most literally to women of other Nations, and in doing so, they took this spirit of prostitution and applied it to God. Think of Balak and Balaam, for this has been happening all along. The women of ungodly Nations seduce Israelite men, and I suppose even women, into sexual relations. Thus, over time, they fall in love with these women and then fall victim to worshipping other vile gods, such as Chemosh and Molech. - Israel had become so corrupt that Israel was no longer “Israel.” Perhaps this is one reason Paul speaks of what a True Jew is in Roman 02:26,28-29.

But as for the topic of “free will,” what do these two verses state that leads Israel astray? Is the human free will to blame? The human spirit? No, the Bible tells us it was a “spirit of prostitution.” Is this the Bible’s way of reclassifying human free will? If it is NOT a spirit of prostitution that leads Israel astray, then those who believe that this refers to the human free will, then your free will, according to the Bible, is a “spirit of prostitution.”

That said, the Bible tells us (clearly), what this spirit entails, and it is this:

2 Timothy 2:25-26 NIV - “Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.”

What is so difficult about this to understand? Until the Veil has been removed, no one is free from this “spirit of prostitution” to do the Will of God. Those who do the work of the ultimate harlot, the Devil, are not free to be blameless, Righteous, and Holy, thus possessing the ability to live the overall consistent life of Moses, Joshua, Caleb, Abraham, and David. We are either controlled by the Devil or by the Spirit. After the pre-fall of Adam and Eve, no Scriptures provide examples of humanity being independent of the mind of the Devil OR the Mind of Christ. There are no in-betweens.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Free will? Did Israel have this sense of "free will"? Of course not . . . anyone that can read English can confirm the obvious.

Day 203 of the timeline, chronological reading plan provides us with one of the keystone passages of the entire Bible. It is as follows:

Isaiah 29:10-14 NLT – “For the LORD has poured out on you a spirit of deep sleep. He has closed the eyes of your prophets and visionaries. All the future events in this vision are like a sealed book to them. When you give it to those who can read, they will say, “We can’t read it because it is sealed.” When you give it to those who cannot read, they will say, “We don’t know how to read.” And so the Lord says, “These people say they are mine. They honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. And their worship of me is nothing but man-made rules learned by rote. Because of this, I will once again astound these hypocrites with amazing wonders. The wisdom of the wise will pass away, and the intelligence of the intelligent will disappear.”

But let’s take a step both backward and then forward (in Scripture) to gain further understanding of Isa 29:10. On Day 191 of the timeline, chronological reading plan, we covered Isaiah 6:8-13, and it states the following:

“Listen carefully, but do not understand. Watch closely, but learn nothing.’ Harden the hearts of these people. Plug their ears and shut their eyes. That way, they will not see with their eyes, nor hear with their ears, nor understand with their hearts . . .”

As we can see, the Lord told Isaiah to tell the [people] that they would be caused to not only [not] understand, but that they would learn nothing. God then tells Isaiah to “plug their ears, shut their eyes, with the intent purpose to cause them Spiritual Blindness and Deafness so that their hearts cannot understand.

Looking ahead, we find that the Apostle Paul quotes this idea/set of passages:

Romans 11:7-8 NLT – “So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the hearts of the rest were hardened. As the Scriptures say, “God has put them into a deep sleep. To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see, and closed their ears so they do not hear.”

Don’t “you” think that if Paul quotes these passages [and] this concept, there must be a vital purpose for doing so? If Paul references these passages and this concept, how much more should we pay attention to today? Or do “you” believe that this text has been added to the Bible for the average day of bathroom reading? Of course, Paul is telling us that there is a Plan of God that is executory . . . it is in the process of being completed and that if “we,” the reader, is competent. . . we will pay attention to what he is clearly conveying.

The question is, has the Veil been removed so that “you,” the reader, can comprehend these things?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Free will? Did Israel have this sense of "free will"? Of course not . . . anyone that can read English can confirm the obvious.

Hilarious! What a question! Did Israel have this sense of free will? Well, let's see whether they did or not?

Matt 23:37 - “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

The red words are Jesus' desire for Israel. "I have LONGED to gather your children".
The blue words reveal the freedom to choose (free will) of the Jews. In fact, Jesus makes clear that the Jews REFUSED to be gathered together.

2 Chron 36-
15 The LORD, the God of their fathers, sent persistently to them by his messengers, because he had compassion on his people and on his dwelling place. 16 But they kept mocking the messengers of God, despising his words and scoffing at his prophets, until the wrath of the LORD rose against his people, until there was no remedy.

Psa 81-
8 Hear, O my people, while I admonish you! O Israel, if you would but listen to me! 9 There shall be no strange god among you; you shall not bow down to a foreign god. 10 I am the LORD your God, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt. Open your mouth wide, and I will fill it. 11 “But my people did not listen to my voice; Israel would not submit to me. 12 So I gave them over to their stubborn hearts, to follow their own counsels. 13 Oh, that my people would listen to me, that Israel would walk in my ways! 14I would soon subdue their enemies
and turn my hand against their foes.

All these verses clearly show God's pursuing love for His chosen people, yet they continually rejected His advances.

Proving beyond any reasonable doubt that God gave His own chosen people free will. They were free to reject.

That proves they had a choice. They could have responded to God's pursuing love and advances. But they CHOSE to reject it.

Romans 11:7-8 NLT – “So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the hearts of the rest were hardened. As the Scriptures say, “God has put them into a deep sleep. To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see, and closed their ears so they do not hear.”

Right. See verses above that show that the Jews made a free choice.

The question is, has the Veil been removed so that “you,” the reader, can comprehend these things?

Paul explains who has had the veil removed:
2 Cor 3-
15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts.
16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

v.16 proves that mankind has free will. The sequence is clear: WHEN someone turns to the Lord, God removes the veil.

Calvinists have it backwards. They presume that God chooses to whom He will remove the veil, and THEN the person will turn to Him.

Nope.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Free will? Did Israel have this sense of "free will"? Of course not . . . anyone that can read English can confirm the obvious.

read the prophets. God is always telling the prophets He is going to destroy israel because "they choose" to serve false gods and offer incense and sacrifice in places designated for Yahweh to strange idols and gods. israel did this often. we see them repent hundreds of times and then return back to their idolatry. i would call that "free will" in any definition.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

read the prophets. God is always telling the prophets He is going to destroy israel because "they choose" to serve false gods and offer incense and sacrifice in places designated for Yahweh to strange idols and gods. israel did this often. we see them repent hundreds of times and then return back to their idolatry. i would call that "free will" in any definition.

Ok. So you're saying that BECAUSE Israel chose to disobey, the Lord THEN put Israel into a deep sleep so that they would not obey? What is the purpose of putting Israel into a deep sleep, then?

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Ok. So you're saying that BECAUSE Israel chose to disobey, the Lord THEN put Israel into a deep sleep so that they would not obey? What is the purpose of putting Israel into a deep sleep, then?

you mean the current delusion? i thought you were talking no "free will" throughout the history of israel.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

you mean the current delusion? i thought you were talking no "free will" throughout the history of israel.

I am talking about the Biblical references that I used in post #512.

God puts Israel into a deep sleep. Why? If Israel is already asleep, made evident by their inability to understand and obey, why would God, then, place Isreal into a deep sleep (which they are already within)?

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

I am talking about the Biblical references that I used in post #512.

God puts Israel into a deep sleep. Why? If Israel is already asleep, made evident by their inability to understand and obey, why would God, then, place Isreal into a deep sleep (which they are already within)?

that's a completely different scenario. paul tells us that israel is being sent a delusion during the gentile period. but then tells us when the gentile reign ends, israel will be saved.

but i believe that a modern day jew still must be a follower of Yahweh and the "law" to fit this category. i don't believe a modern day jew can be atheist towards Yahweh and the "law" and then be saved when the others finally accept Christ as their Messiah.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

that's a completely different scenario. paul tells us that israel is being sent a delusion during the gentile period. but then tells us when the gentile reign ends, israel will be saved.

but i believe that a modern day jew still must be a follower of Yahweh and the "law" to fit this category. i don't believe a modern day jew can be atheist towards Yahweh and the "law" and then be saved when the others finally accept Christ as their Messiah.

Let's make this more simple to understand. I am asking you why God placed Israel into a deep sleep while during the days of the Old Testament. Here they are again:

Isaiah 6:8-13 - “Listen carefully, but do not understand. Watch closely, but learn nothing.’ Harden the hearts of these people. Plug their ears and shut their eyes. That way, they will not see with their eyes, nor hear with their ears, nor understand with their hearts . . .”

Isaiah 29:10-14 NLT – “For the LORD has poured out on you a spirit of deep sleep. He has closed the eyes of your prophets and visionaries.

What is the purpose?

Please explain through Scripture, not personal ideas.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Let's make this more simple to understand. I am asking you why God placed Israel into a deep sleep while during the days of the Old Testament. Here they are again:

Isaiah 6:8-13 - “Listen carefully, but do not understand. Watch closely, but learn nothing.’ Harden the hearts of these people. Plug their ears and shut their eyes. That way, they will not see with their eyes, nor hear with their ears, nor understand with their hearts . . .”

Isaiah 29:10-14 NLT – “For the LORD has poured out on you a spirit of deep sleep. He has closed the eyes of your prophets and visionaries.

What is the purpose?

Please explain through Scripture, not personal ideas.

it's a lot like ezekiel God going to destroy judah and jerusalem and israel. the jews were disobeying God by offering to idols. but those jews did not pay immediately. we always see the destruction happening to future generations of jews. i think the deep sleep is what is happening to the current jew.