Five-Fold (or Four-Fold) Ministry

[notuptome]

This will happen when the perfect comes. The speech, thoughts, and understanding of Paul back when he was writing this book of the New Testament will be like a child's speech, thoughts and understanding. We will know fully as we are fully known. But now, we know in part.

Paul wrote to the Ephesians, that by reading this ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ. He does not say that by reading the scriptures they will no so much that he will seem like a baby in comparison. The Bible teaches us 'the faith once delivered to the saints', not the full perfection that Paul and the rest of the saints of God will experience at the resurrection of the dead

Philippians 3
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

I john 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

More support that the scriptures are the completion of Gods revelation to man. All we need we have and no more will be added.

You simply must believe what God has given is what God is giving. Christ was here and departed though we await His return He is not the completion foretold in 1 Cor 13.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Chris1975]

All of the 5 fold ministry is in effect today:

>Apostles is effectively the same as Missionaries. They go out to all the world breaking new ground and church plantings.
>Prophets are part of the ministry gift today. This office works in conjunction with the gift of prophecy.
>Evangelists (ala Billy Graham, Ray Comfort, etc - no argument there)
>Pastors (shepherding a flock that they oversee in a pastoral sense)
>Teachers (those with the ministerial gifts of unpacking and teaching the scriptures to build up the body of Christ on solid doctrine).

The apostolic gifting is unique in the sense that those who are called and sent by God typically operate in many of the other giftings as well, as the need arises.

 

[Aerials1978]

God would speak directly to the Prophets. Jesus spoke directly to the Apostles. The gifts of the Spirit were given because the Gospels nor the Epistles has been codified as of yet.
God gave His revelation concerning man. There is no additional information He is proclaiming. We received His word(The Bible).

Anyone that makes the claim otherwise I would challenge. In all honesty a lot people either rely on wishful thinking or want to be something more.

The thing is, I cannot find this line of reasoning in the Bible, and I have no reason to think that your theory is part of 'the faith once delivered to the saints' that Jude writes about.

It was not the belief of the early church, which recognized the gift prophecy as an ongoing thing.

The biggest evidence is that you don’t see things like occurring anymore. Again, if anyone claims to have these gifts, I really have to call that into question.

It’s not just a theory. I base it on a observational premise. What would be your view of a prophecy?

 

[bud62]

1 Cor 13 claims that prophecy shall be done away. Tongues shall cease and knowledge shall vanish away.

NT revelation complete and the faith once delivered to the saints.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

It dose not say that prophecy shall be done away, It says that prophecies will fail, This is just the ones that are prophesied falsely,
REV 19:10 The testimony OF JESUS, is the spirit of prophecy,

 

[Aerials1978]

All of the 5 fold ministry is in effect today:

>Apostles is effectively the same as Missionaries. They go out to all the world breaking new ground and church plantings.
>Prophets are part of the ministry gift today. This office works in conjunction with the gift of prophecy.
>Evangelists (ala Billy Graham, Ray Comfort, etc - no argument there)
>Pastors (shepherding a flock that they oversee in a pastoral sense)
>Teachers (those with the ministerial gifts of unpacking and teaching the scriptures to build up the body of Christ on solid doctrine).

The apostolic gifting is unique in the sense that those who are called and sent by God typically operate in many of the other giftings as well, as the need arises.

If it is still operation, why are there no new revelations from God? Who are these prophets/apostles?

The early Church needed these “Gifts” to be seen in order to validate the Gospel. There was no Bible at that time. Paul whom was probably the greatest Apostle had to have a supernatural experience in order for Him to become a Christian. We have the Bible now and hence no need for that until the Tribulation.

 

[presidente]

More support that the scriptures are the completion of Gods revelation to man. All we need we have and no more will be added.

You simply must believe what God has given is what God is giving. Christ was here and departed though we await His return He is not the completion foretold in 1 Cor 13.

That last line is a strawman. The perfect comes at or after Christ's return. That does not mean that 'that which is perfect' specifically designates 'Christ' as a referent in the passage.

 

[presidente]

If it is still operation, why are there no new revelations from God? Who are these prophets/apostles?

The early Church needed these “Gifts” to be seen in order to validate the Gospel. There was no Bible at that time. Paul whom was probably the greatest Apostle had to have a supernatural experience in order for Him to become a Christian. We have the Bible now and hence no need for that until the Tribulation.

Show me where the Bible says that if we have the Bible, we do not need the gifts. I cannot find that doctrine in my Bible.

And why would gifts start up during the Tribulation if they ceased earlier? Show some scripture to support that line of reasoning?

Why should I believe your theories as opposed to direct teachings of Scripture like I Corinthians 12 which teaches the Spirit gives gifts, like prophecy, to members of the body of Christ as He wills?

 

[notuptome]

That last line is a strawman. The perfect comes at or after Christ's return. That does not mean that 'that which is perfect' specifically designates 'Christ' as a referent in the passage.

Not so my friend. Perfect means complete in this passage. It is not following the modern English definition of flawless but rather the old English complete. You are getting hung up on a minor translation shift.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

It dose not say that prophecy shall be done away, It says that prophecies will fail, This is just the ones that are prophesied falsely,
REV 19:10 The testimony OF JESUS, is the spirit of prophecy,

You are using the KJV English which is not totally on point herein this passage. It is more accurately seen as done away or sort of a fading out.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Aerials1978]

Show me where the Bible says that if we have the Bible, we do not need the gifts. I cannot find that doctrine in my Bible.

And why would gifts start up during the Tribulation if they ceased earlier? Show some scripture to support that line of reasoning?

Why should I believe your theories as opposed to direct teachings of Scripture like I Corinthians 12 which teaches the Spirit gives gifts, like prophecy, to members of the body of Christ as He wills?

When Paul wrote that letter, the Church was still in it’s infancy. It was needed as the Church was still small and under heavy persecution.

And why would those start up again during the tribulation? Well that should be pretty obvious. You keep asking for scripture, and I provided some. Can you point any scripture that said it would be a permanent thing?

 

[presidente]

The biggest evidence is that you don’t see things like occurring anymore. Again, if anyone claims to have these gifts, I really have to call that into question.

I do see gifts in operation. Especially prophecy and revelatory gifts from time to time.

But why should you base doctrine on your experience rather than scripture?

It’s not just a theory. I base it on a observational premise. What would be your view of a prophecy?

Would you mind being more specific?

 

[Aerials1978]

I do see gifts in operation. Especially prophecy and revelatory gifts from time to time.

But why should you base doctrine on your experience rather than scripture?


Would you mind being more specific?

What prophecy and gifts is that you see? Also when I am taking about an observational premise is, I haven’t seen for myself and nor do I see it as being needed as the church has been solidified.

 

[presidente]

When Paul wrote that letter, the Church was still in it’s infancy. It was needed as the Church was still small and under heavy persecution.

That's what we call a theory, not the teaching of scripture.

And why would those start up again during the tribulation? Well that should be pretty obvious. You keep asking for scripture, and I provided some. Can you point any scripture that said it would be a permanent thing?

Would you apply that reasoning to other doctrines. Would you say, "Can you show me where it says that salvation will still be by faith after the apostles died?" or "Can you show me where it says not to fornicate, murder, or commit adultery in the 21st century? I know where it says not to do that stuff, but does it say not to do it in the 21st century?" Shouldn't we just believe what the Bible teaches without insisting on verses that say that it still applies?

 

[Aerials1978]

That's what we call a theory, not the teaching of scripture.

Would you apply that reasoning to other doctrines. Would you say, "Can you show me where it says that salvation will still be by faith after the apostles died?" or "Can you show me where it says not to fornicate, murder, or commit adultery in the 21st century? I know where it says not to do that stuff, but does it say not to do it in the 21st century?" Shouldn't we just believe what the Bible teaches without insisting on verses that say that it still applies?

You can’t conflate scripture like that. Specific things were for a specific people. Would you say that a rebellious son still needs to be stoned by his parents? Of course not. Same can be applied to other scripture. The Gospels though are meant for humans as a whole.

 

[bud62]

That's what we call a theory, not the teaching of scripture.

Would you apply that reasoning to other doctrines. Would you say, "Can you show me where it says that salvation will still be by faith after the apostles died?" or "Can you show me where it says not to fornicate, murder, or commit adultery in the 21st century? I know where it says not to do that stuff, but does it say not to do it in the 21st century?" Shouldn't we just believe what the Bible teaches without insisting on verses that say that it still applies?

REV 2:13 I know thy works and where thou dwellest, even were Satan seat is :And thou holdest fast my name, And hast not denied my faith, Even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth. Last book in the BIBLE, And it will be by faith to the END OF THIS WORLD
GOD bless as HE sees fit

 

[presidente]

You can’t conflate scripture like that. Specific things were for a specific people. Would you say that a rebellious son still needs to be stoned by his parents? Of course not. Same can be applied to other scripture. The Gospels though are meant for humans as a whole.

We are talking about commandments to the church. Do you think we should follow Biblical instructions on appointing church overeers, or just appoint the neighborhood drunk with a messed up family? Paul wrote to the Thessalonians not that it was God's will that they abstain from fornication. Do you think that applies to other Christians, too?

Look at who I Corinthians is addressed to:
I Corinthians 12

1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

Why wouldn't this also apply now?
I Corinthians 12
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

You are the one asserting that the Holy Spirit does not do things the scripture shows that He does. The burden of proof is on you to show that these statements of scripture are no longer true or applicable.

 

[Aerials1978]

We are talking about commandments to the church. Do you think we should follow Biblical instructions on appointing church overeers, or just appoint the neighborhood drunk with a messed up family? Paul wrote to the Thessalonians not that it was God's will that they abstain from fornication. Do you think that applies to other Christians, too?

Look at who I Corinthians is addressed to:
I Corinthians 12

1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

Why wouldn't this also apply now?
I Corinthians 12
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

You are the one asserting that the Holy Spirit does not do things the scripture shows that He does. The burden of proof is on you to show that these statements of scripture are no longer true or applicable.

I think I have address my position and provide as to why. Let’s not get off on topic with regards to other scripture. You said that you have experienced these things. That would give someone the belief they are true. What have you experienced?

 

[bud62]

I think I have address my position and provide as to why. Let’s not get off on topic with regards to other scripture. You said that you have experienced these things. That would give someone the belief they are true. What have you experienced?

First of all, If a man is a drunk, He has no right being a overseer
PROVERBS 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
A man that is drinking , SHOULDN"T be a leader at all, If he is a drunk , and stays that way , He will be lost, According to GODs WORD.

 

[Aerials1978]

First of all, If a man is a drunk, He has no right being a overseer
PROVERBS 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
A man that is drinking , SHOULDN"T be a leader at all, If he is a drunk , and stays that way , He will be lost, According to GODs WORD.

Huh?

 

[bud62]

Huh?

1 COR 6:10 & 1 COR 5:11 & MAT 5:21