Five Articles of the Remonstrance of Jacobus Arminius of 1610

[calibob]

1. Are the five doctrinal statement of the Remonstrants valid or not?

2. Do you agree with them?

See the Statements below:

Five Articles of Remonstrance

The Five articles of Remonstrance refer to the document drawn up in 1610 by the followers
of Jacobus Arminius (1560-1609). A "remonstrance" is literally "an expression of opposition
or protest," which in this case was a protest against the Calvinist doctrine of predestination
contained in the Belgic Confession. Consequently, those followers of Arminius who drafted
this protest were given the name "Remonstrants." This document was condemned as heresy
by the reformed churches at the Synod of Dort, 1618-1619. [1]

Article 1
That God, by an eternal and unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ his Son, before the foundation
of the world, hath determined, out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ’s sake,
and through Christ, those who, through the grace of the Holy Ghost, shall believe on this his son Jesus,
and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on
the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath, and to condemn
them as alienate from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John 3:36: “He that believeth
on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath
of God abideth on him,” and according to other passages of Scripture also. [2]

Article 2
That agreeably thereunto, Jesus Christ the Saviour of the world, died for all men and for every man,
so that he has obtained for them all, by his death on the cross, redemption and the forgiveness of sins;
yet that no one actually enjoys this forgiveness of sins except the believer, according to the word of the
Gospel of John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever
believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” And in the First Epistle of 1 John 2:2: “And
he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” [3]

Article 3
That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as he, in the
state of apostasy and sin, can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good
(such as saving faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through
his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he
may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ,
John 15:5, “Without me ye can do nothing.” [4]

Article 4
That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of all good, even to this
extent, that the regenerate man himself, without prevenient or assisting, awakening, following and
cooperative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that
all good deeds or movements, that can be conceived, must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ.
but respects the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible; inasmuch as it is written
concerning many, that they have resisted the Holy Ghost. Acts 7, and elsewhere in many places. [5]

Article 5
That those who are incorporated into Christ by true faith, and have thereby become partakers of
his life-giving Spirit, have thereby full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own
flesh, and to win the victory; it being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace
of the Holy Ghost; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends
to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, and desire his help, and are not inactive,
keeps them from falling, so that they, by no craft or power of Satan, can be misled nor plucked out
of Christ’s hands, according to the Word of Christ, John 10:28: “Neither shall any man pluck them
out of my hand.” But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first
beginning of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away
from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of becoming
devoid of grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, before
we ourselves can teach it with the full persuasion of our mind. [6]

Well he had more on the ball than Calvin did, for sure. A sticking point in my mind comes in article 5 because Paul Apostle to the gentiles (most of us) wrote in 1 Corinthians 5:3-5>
3Although I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit, and I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present.
4When you are gathered in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, along with the power of the Lord Jesus, 5hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

 

[Whispered]

Ah yes I think I will ignore the Calvinists😁
Thank you👍

Calvinists think they are the only one's destined to Heaven. Those of us who contend against Calvinist teachings are, for them, overcome by the last word of Calvin's god when they believe we, the non-elect, are eventually to be shut up by being damned to Hell as the non-elect.

John Calvin and Calvinism advocate Double Predestination. (Think of the kind of god this would testify of) This means, Calvin's god predetermined, before he created anything anywhere at all, a fallen human race. And from among that number he would then save those he chose for his own reasons, not due to any merit on their behalf because the human fallen race are made by that god to be incapable of exercising free will, choice, for themselves.
Further, that god would also then naturally predetermine by name whom he would damn to Hell. Which hadn't yet been created when all this predetermination by the Calvinist god was happening.

Now, how does that predetermined "saved" Calvinist of the future know they're chosen? They don't. They're not able to understand the Bible, be drawn to that god and out of their totally depraved state of their own accord. No, god has to come along and force them into his grace. And then after that he makes them to have faith in him. He does all this. Then that person is saved.

Again, think of what that formula actually says about the god committing it. First he is the author of sin that damns the human race in the beginning so that he can save the selected one's from among those damned people as he see's fit. Meanwhile, he'll send everyone else to Hell because for his own reasons he decided they weren't worth selecting as the saved ones.

The Bible tells us , those who deem themselves worthy to preach the word will have to answer to a higher standard come the judgment. Because they believed they were called to lead people to find Christ.
Imagine John Calvin's appointment before the judgment when that day comes. A man who single handedly contrived a doctrine that sent countless souls away from the true Gospel.

 

[Butterflyyy]

That is 100% true.
We have a member on board who subscribes to the TULIP principle in their Denominational practice. They have said repeatedly and referred repeatedly to Christ, dying for those whom the Father gave him.

Christ died only for those God predestined before anything was at al created, to be saved.
Think about what that says about God.

Ugh

 

[Whispered]

Ugh

Ugh is indeed a word for it. Though as pertains to the one who did insist Jesus died only for those God predetermined to save I will say I haven't seen them aboard of late. May they be in God's light and all is well with him.

 

[ieuan]

The way I see it is this,

Jesus died on the cross to call ALL men.
Those that reject HIM do so under their own volition
and suffer the just penalty for this rejection of Holy God.
We all agree on this Arminians and so called Calvinists.
Those that are saved are saved because of Election before time,
When the world was made, God knew our names,
He knew the names of all believers
and He made sure of their election by imparting the new heart see Ezekiel 36:26

"26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away
the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes,
and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."

Did Jesus atone for all men, well if He had atoned for the wicked then they would be saved,
because they rejected HIM His atonement never took place. However should they believe
before they died then the atonement took place for them.

As to total depravity, I will say this, without God we would be totally depraved
but because of His grace operatiing in this world our utter depravity is balance
by His love towards mankind.

I don't mind anyone disagreeing with me, but please keep your complaints
focussed on the thread not a general rage at Calvinists. I know some very
gentle Calvinists who are kind and very old woman who love their fellow man
and do good works but also hold to predestination and electon. Thank you all.

I have never condemned any Arminian to hell, nor would I do so, we are all
loved of by God and therefore we must love one another.

 

[ieuan]

I will also add this,

God calls all men to repentance and faith.
Jesus wept over Jerusalem, I believe God weeps over the lost.
Why doesn't God save all men, that is in the secret councel of His will.

God determins who He will save not the other way round.
For if a man choses to save himself then he can just as aily fall away.
But as it is God who calls and does a good work we cannot fail.

I quote the whole of scripture regrding God calling a people not His own,
chosing the gentiles over His own chosen people:


Romans 9 (NASB)
Solicitude for Israel
I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies
with me in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief
in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated
from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,
who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory
and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the
promises, whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according
to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel
who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are
Abraham’s [d]descendants, but: “]through Isaac your descendants will be
named.” That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but
the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. For this is the word
of promise: “At this time I will come, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only
this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our
father Isaac; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything
good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not
because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her,
“The older will serve the younger.” Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau
I hated.”

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have
compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man
who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says
to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you,
and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.”
18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?”
20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing moulded
will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not
the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel
for honorable use and another for common use?

22 What if God, although
willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with
much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make
known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand
for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from
among Gentiles. 25 As He says also in Hosea,
“I will call those who were not My people, ‘My people,’
And her who was not beloved, ‘beloved.’”
26 “And it shall be that in the place where it was said to them, ‘you are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “Though the number of the sons of Israel be like
the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved; 28 for the Lord will execute
His word on the earth, thoroughly and quickly.” 29 And just as Isaiah foretold,
“Unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left to us a posterity,
We would have become like Sodom, and would have [s]resembled Gomorrah.”
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness,
attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; 31 but Israel,
pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32 Why? Because
they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled
over the stumbling stone, 33 just as it is written,
“Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense,
And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”

 

[ieuan]

Calibob
I am looking at that article 5 you have problems with.

Article 5
That those who are incorporated into Christ by true faith, and have thereby become partakers of
his life-giving Spirit, have thereby full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own
flesh, and to win the victory; it being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace
of the Holy Ghost; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends
to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, and desire his help, and are not inactive,
keeps them from falling, so that they, by no craft or power of Satan, can be misled nor plucked out
of Christ’s hands, according to the Word of Christ, John 10:28: “Neither shall any man pluck them
out of my hand.” But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first
beginning of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away
from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of becoming
devoid of grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, before
we ourselves can teach it with the full persuasion of our mind. [6]

I don't quite get you point, if you could kindly explain? Forgive me.

Note the Arminian standard of faith proclaims none can be lost.
I agree, none of God's elect can fall fatally or lost.

 

[Butterflyyy]

The way I see it is this,

Jesus died on the cross to call ALL men.
Those that reject HIM do so under their own volition
and suffer the just penalty for this rejection of Holy God.
We all agree on this Arminians and so called Calvinists.
Those that are saved are saved because of Election before time,
When the world was made, God knew our names,
He knew the names of all believers
and He made sure of their election by imparting the new heart see Ezekiel 36:26

"26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away
the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes,
and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."

Did Jesus atone for all men, well if He had atoned for the wicked then they would be saved,
because they rejected HIM His atonement never took place. However should they believe
before they died then the atonement took place for them.

As to total depravity, I will say this, without God we would be totally depraved
but because of His grace operatiing in this world our utter depravity is balance
by His love towards mankind.

I don't mind anyone disagreeing with me, but please keep your complaints
focussed on the thread not a general rage at Calvinists. I know some very
gentle Calvinists who are kind and very old woman who love their fellow man
and do good works but also hold to predestination and electon. Thank you all.

I have never condemned any Arminian to hell, nor would I do so, we are all
loved of by God and therefore we must love one another.

You are confused

 

[Butterflyyy]

Calvinists think they are the only one's destined to Heaven. Those of us who contend against Calvinist teachings are, for them, overcome by the last word of Calvin's god when they believe we, the non-elect, are eventually to be shut up by being damned to Hell as the non-elect.

John Calvin and Calvinism advocate Double Predestination. (Think of the kind of god this would testify of) This means, Calvin's god predetermined, before he created anything anywhere at all, a fallen human race. And from among that number he would then save those he chose for his own reasons, not due to any merit on their behalf because the human fallen race are made by that god to be incapable of exercising free will, choice, for themselves.
Further, that god would also then naturally predetermine by name whom he would damn to Hell. Which hadn't yet been created when all this predetermination by the Calvinist god was happening.

Now, how does that predetermined "saved" Calvinist of the future know they're chosen? They don't. They're not able to understand the Bible, be drawn to that god and out of their totally depraved state of their own accord. No, god has to come along and force them into his grace. And then after that he makes them to have faith in him. He does all this. Then that person is saved.

Again, think of what that formula actually says about the god committing it. First he is the author of sin that damns the human race in the beginning so that he can save the selected one's from among those damned people as he see's fit. Meanwhile, he'll send everyone else to Hell because for his own reasons he decided they weren't worth selecting as the saved ones.

The Bible tells us , those who deem themselves worthy to preach the word will have to answer to a higher standard come the judgment. Because they believed they were called to lead people to find Christ.
Imagine John Calvin's appointment before the judgment when that day comes. A man who single handedly contrived a doctrine that sent countless souls away from the true Gospel.

Dear Whispered
After sleeping on what you said... I realised all the more, the terrible extent of Calvin's heretical doctrine, and indeed it is true, it actually leads souls AWAY from salvation potentially. I have in fact encountered one such person on this forum, who was discouraged and depressedocer the fact that he didn't think he was one of God's 'elect' 😞

 

[Whispered]

Dear Whispered
After sleeping on what you said... I realised all the more, the terrible extent of Calvin's heretical doctrine, and indeed it is true, it actually leads souls AWAY from salvation potentially. I have in fact encountered one such person on this forum, who was discouraged and depressedocer the fact that he didn't think he was one of God's 'elect' 😞

That is very sad indeed. And it is why false teachings should be identified and refuted.
This article is quite long however, it identifies the parts of scripture Calvinists invoke in order to inform others that they are the elect of God and by implication, others are not.

Did Jesus Die for All Men, or the Elect Only?

By: Chris Bradley
Last updated on: August 31, 2018​

Q: Did Jesus Die for All Men, or the Elect Only?, Pt. 1: The Meaning of “World” (John 3:16)
A: This is a question that you may have heard before from theologians and Bible scholars. You may have never even believed in a group of people known as the elect, but the term is not without biblical support. After all, Jesus speaks of “the elect” in Matthew 24:22, 24, and 31:

“Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved” (Matthew 24:22, New American Standard Bible).
“For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect” (Mt. 24:24).
“And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other” (Mt. 24:31).​

It is also present in the Gospels of Mark (Mk. 13:22, 27) and Luke (18:7). One of the more famous passages in which the Greek word eklektos, or eklektoi (Greek plural of “elect”) is used is Romans 8:33:
“Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;” (Rom. 8:33a)
These passages alone do justice to the concept of “the elect.” But exactly who are the elect? Depending on the Bible scholar or Pastor and his or her underlying beliefs, you will find two different answers: either 1) a special group chosen by God or 2) a group of individuals who choose to believe in Christ.
The two choices above have been written in distinction to make a point. Those who support the first definition believe that one must repent and believe the gospel. Where they will differ from those who support the second definition is that supporters of definition #1 believe that The Lord chose each believer from eternity; He decided to save a special group of humans while abandoning the rest of humanity (those who are called unbelievers).

One of the top passages used by those who support the Special Group idea (known as Calvinists, after theologian John Calvin who also endorsed the same view) is Ephesians 1:4-6, where phrases such as “He chose us in Him” (Eph. 1:4) and “in love He predestined us to adoption as sons” (1:5) are used. Calvinists (adherents to John Calvin’s theology) will say, ” The text says that ‘He chose’ and ‘He predestined,’ so what need is there for any other proof that the special group idea is right?” For the Calvinist, “chosen” implies election, and “predestined” means “chosen before time.”

While predestined does mean, by definition, “before the event happens,” and election does mean “choice,” to read the text as “chosen without regard to faith” is to misread what Paul (and John) will go on to say about Christ and salvation.
The truth of the matter is that Calvinists read the first part of the phrases above and miss the end of the phrases. When Ephesians 1:4 says that “He chose us in Him,” the phrase in Him is just as significant as He chose us. What does it mean to be “in Him”? It means to be “in Christ” (Eph. 1:1, 3, 5, 12, 13). What does it mean to be “in Christ”? It means to experience conversion, to believe in the gospel message. As Paul writes in the same chapter (Eph. 1:13):
“In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation — having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise” (Eph. 1:13).

There are three things to notice here about this verse. First, notice that it begins with “in Him,” a phrase that is used some five times in the first chapter of Ephesians (1:4, 7, 9, 10-11, 13). The phrase “in Christ” (Christ is the Him to which the possessive pronoun, Him, refers) is also used in the same passage (Eph. 1:1, 3, 10, 12, 20). Since it is “in Him” that the Ephesian Christians (and all Christians today) believe, then Paul states here that salvation comes by hearing the gospel message (“listening to the message of truth”) and believing in the message (“having also believed”).

What we can gather from Ephesians 1 is that believers come to Christ by way of the gospel message. They must first hear the message and then believe the message in order to be saved. Also, notice something else: Paul says, “having believed, you were sealed” — meaning that the Christians to whom Paul writes mentions the responsibility of humans to believe in the gospel message.
He refers to the gospel as “the gospel of your salvation,” showing that the gospel is central to the salvation of the Christians in Ephesus (and Christians today, see Romans 10:9, John 3:16).

Now, let us return to the question above: “Did Jesus die for all men, or the elect?” To answer this question, you must know who elect are. Who are they? The elect are those who hear the message and believe God is who He says He is and that He gives eternal life to those who seek Him (Hebrews 11:6). The individuals who come to God, however, must have faith, for “without faith it is impossible (is not possible) to please” God (Heb. 11:6).

All God asks that we give to Him is belief, trust. In the final analysis, the elect are not some special group who are first chosen prior to demonstrating any faith in Christ. It is only after a person confesses that Jesus is Lord (Rom. 10:9) that he or she is sealed with the Holy Spirit and designated as God’s own (Eph. 1:13). Paul also says that “those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness” (Rom. 5:17) are counted as God’s elect.

Once you understand who the elect are, you can then understand the meaning of “the world” throughout the text of Scripture. But before we cover the meaning of “the world,” we must first address a critique made by the group we call Calvinists: that is, those who say individuals must believe before salvation have made faith a work — work being that of which no man can boast or brag (Eph. 2:8-9).
Is Faith A Work? [Continued]

 

[Butterflyyy]

That is very sad indeed. And it is why false teachings should be identified and refuted.
This article is quite long however, it identifies the parts of scripture Calvinists invoke in order to inform others that they are the elect of God and by implication, others are not.

Did Jesus Die for All Men, or the Elect Only?

By: Chris Bradley
Last updated on: August 31, 2018​

Q: Did Jesus Die for All Men, or the Elect Only?, Pt. 1: The Meaning of “World” (John 3:16)
A: This is a question that you may have heard before from theologians and Bible scholars. You may have never even believed in a group of people known as the elect, but the term is not without biblical support. After all, Jesus speaks of “the elect” in Matthew 24:22, 24, and 31:

“Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved” (Matthew 24:22, New American Standard Bible).
“For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect” (Mt. 24:24).
“And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other” (Mt. 24:31).​

It is also present in the Gospels of Mark (Mk. 13:22, 27) and Luke (18:7). One of the more famous passages in which the Greek word eklektos, or eklektoi (Greek plural of “elect”) is used is Romans 8:33:
“Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;” (Rom. 8:33a)
These passages alone do justice to the concept of “the elect.” But exactly who are the elect? Depending on the Bible scholar or Pastor and his or her underlying beliefs, you will find two different answers: either 1) a special group chosen by God or 2) a group of individuals who choose to believe in Christ.
The two choices above have been written in distinction to make a point. Those who support the first definition believe that one must repent and believe the gospel. Where they will differ from those who support the second definition is that supporters of definition #1 believe that The Lord chose each believer from eternity; He decided to save a special group of humans while abandoning the rest of humanity (those who are called unbelievers).

One of the top passages used by those who support the Special Group idea (known as Calvinists, after theologian John Calvin who also endorsed the same view) is Ephesians 1:4-6, where phrases such as “He chose us in Him” (Eph. 1:4) and “in love He predestined us to adoption as sons” (1:5) are used. Calvinists (adherents to John Calvin’s theology) will say, ” The text says that ‘He chose’ and ‘He predestined,’ so what need is there for any other proof that the special group idea is right?” For the Calvinist, “chosen” implies election, and “predestined” means “chosen before time.”

While predestined does mean, by definition, “before the event happens,” and election does mean “choice,” to read the text as “chosen without regard to faith” is to misread what Paul (and John) will go on to say about Christ and salvation.
The truth of the matter is that Calvinists read the first part of the phrases above and miss the end of the phrases. When Ephesians 1:4 says that “He chose us in Him,” the phrase in Him is just as significant as He chose us. What does it mean to be “in Him”? It means to be “in Christ” (Eph. 1:1, 3, 5, 12, 13). What does it mean to be “in Christ”? It means to experience conversion, to believe in the gospel message. As Paul writes in the same chapter (Eph. 1:13):
“In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation — having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise” (Eph. 1:13).

There are three things to notice here about this verse. First, notice that it begins with “in Him,” a phrase that is used some five times in the first chapter of Ephesians (1:4, 7, 9, 10-11, 13). The phrase “in Christ” (Christ is the Him to which the possessive pronoun, Him, refers) is also used in the same passage (Eph. 1:1, 3, 10, 12, 20). Since it is “in Him” that the Ephesian Christians (and all Christians today) believe, then Paul states here that salvation comes by hearing the gospel message (“listening to the message of truth”) and believing in the message (“having also believed”).

What we can gather from Ephesians 1 is that believers come to Christ by way of the gospel message. They must first hear the message and then believe the message in order to be saved. Also, notice something else: Paul says, “having believed, you were sealed” — meaning that the Christians to whom Paul writes mentions the responsibility of humans to believe in the gospel message.
He refers to the gospel as “the gospel of your salvation,” showing that the gospel is central to the salvation of the Christians in Ephesus (and Christians today, see Romans 10:9, John 3:16).

Now, let us return to the question above: “Did Jesus die for all men, or the elect?” To answer this question, you must know who elect are. Who are they? The elect are those who hear the message and believe God is who He says He is and that He gives eternal life to those who seek Him (Hebrews 11:6). The individuals who come to God, however, must have faith, for “without faith it is impossible (is not possible) to please” God (Heb. 11:6).

All God asks that we give to Him is belief, trust. In the final analysis, the elect are not some special group who are first chosen prior to demonstrating any faith in Christ. It is only after a person confesses that Jesus is Lord (Rom. 10:9) that he or she is sealed with the Holy Spirit and designated as God’s own (Eph. 1:13). Paul also says that “those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness” (Rom. 5:17) are counted as God’s elect.

Once you understand who the elect are, you can then understand the meaning of “the world” throughout the text of Scripture. But before we cover the meaning of “the world,” we must first address a critique made by the group we call Calvinists: that is, those who say individuals must believe before salvation have made faith a work — work being that of which no man can boast or brag (Eph. 2:8-9).
Is Faith A Work? [Continued]

I will have a look through that-thank you. I have found it to be that every scripture Calvinists have used, when I have studied the original language (Hebrew or Greek) the verses only disprove their doctrine. Also their doctrine does not line up with many other verses or God's character. They are adding to scripture. When I have tried to sincerely engage with them they have only used more misunderstood verses to shoot back at me rather than study and consider the true meanings. This, to me, amounts to brainwashing/indoctrination and reminds me of how Jehovah's Witnesses have, in my experience, refused to consider any other way except that path which they are on.

 

[Butterflyyy]

That is very sad indeed. And it is why false teachings should be identified and refuted.
This article is quite long however, it identifies the parts of scripture Calvinists invoke in order to inform others that they are the elect of God and by implication, others are not.

Did Jesus Die for All Men, or the Elect Only?

By: Chris Bradley
Last updated on: August 31, 2018​

Q: Did Jesus Die for All Men, or the Elect Only?, Pt. 1: The Meaning of “World” (John 3:16)
A: This is a question that you may have heard before from theologians and Bible scholars. You may have never even believed in a group of people known as the elect, but the term is not without biblical support. After all, Jesus speaks of “the elect” in Matthew 24:22, 24, and 31:

“Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved” (Matthew 24:22, New American Standard Bible).
“For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect” (Mt. 24:24).
“And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other” (Mt. 24:31).​

It is also present in the Gospels of Mark (Mk. 13:22, 27) and Luke (18:7). One of the more famous passages in which the Greek word eklektos, or eklektoi (Greek plural of “elect”) is used is Romans 8:33:
“Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;” (Rom. 8:33a)
These passages alone do justice to the concept of “the elect.” But exactly who are the elect? Depending on the Bible scholar or Pastor and his or her underlying beliefs, you will find two different answers: either 1) a special group chosen by God or 2) a group of individuals who choose to believe in Christ.
The two choices above have been written in distinction to make a point. Those who support the first definition believe that one must repent and believe the gospel. Where they will differ from those who support the second definition is that supporters of definition #1 believe that The Lord chose each believer from eternity; He decided to save a special group of humans while abandoning the rest of humanity (those who are called unbelievers).

One of the top passages used by those who support the Special Group idea (known as Calvinists, after theologian John Calvin who also endorsed the same view) is Ephesians 1:4-6, where phrases such as “He chose us in Him” (Eph. 1:4) and “in love He predestined us to adoption as sons” (1:5) are used. Calvinists (adherents to John Calvin’s theology) will say, ” The text says that ‘He chose’ and ‘He predestined,’ so what need is there for any other proof that the special group idea is right?” For the Calvinist, “chosen” implies election, and “predestined” means “chosen before time.”

While predestined does mean, by definition, “before the event happens,” and election does mean “choice,” to read the text as “chosen without regard to faith” is to misread what Paul (and John) will go on to say about Christ and salvation.
The truth of the matter is that Calvinists read the first part of the phrases above and miss the end of the phrases. When Ephesians 1:4 says that “He chose us in Him,” the phrase in Him is just as significant as He chose us. What does it mean to be “in Him”? It means to be “in Christ” (Eph. 1:1, 3, 5, 12, 13). What does it mean to be “in Christ”? It means to experience conversion, to believe in the gospel message. As Paul writes in the same chapter (Eph. 1:13):
“In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation — having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise” (Eph. 1:13).

There are three things to notice here about this verse. First, notice that it begins with “in Him,” a phrase that is used some five times in the first chapter of Ephesians (1:4, 7, 9, 10-11, 13). The phrase “in Christ” (Christ is the Him to which the possessive pronoun, Him, refers) is also used in the same passage (Eph. 1:1, 3, 10, 12, 20). Since it is “in Him” that the Ephesian Christians (and all Christians today) believe, then Paul states here that salvation comes by hearing the gospel message (“listening to the message of truth”) and believing in the message (“having also believed”).

What we can gather from Ephesians 1 is that believers come to Christ by way of the gospel message. They must first hear the message and then believe the message in order to be saved. Also, notice something else: Paul says, “having believed, you were sealed” — meaning that the Christians to whom Paul writes mentions the responsibility of humans to believe in the gospel message.
He refers to the gospel as “the gospel of your salvation,” showing that the gospel is central to the salvation of the Christians in Ephesus (and Christians today, see Romans 10:9, John 3:16).

Now, let us return to the question above: “Did Jesus die for all men, or the elect?” To answer this question, you must know who elect are. Who are they? The elect are those who hear the message and believe God is who He says He is and that He gives eternal life to those who seek Him (Hebrews 11:6). The individuals who come to God, however, must have faith, for “without faith it is impossible (is not possible) to please” God (Heb. 11:6).

All God asks that we give to Him is belief, trust. In the final analysis, the elect are not some special group who are first chosen prior to demonstrating any faith in Christ. It is only after a person confesses that Jesus is Lord (Rom. 10:9) that he or she is sealed with the Holy Spirit and designated as God’s own (Eph. 1:13). Paul also says that “those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness” (Rom. 5:17) are counted as God’s elect.

Once you understand who the elect are, you can then understand the meaning of “the world” throughout the text of Scripture. But before we cover the meaning of “the world,” we must first address a critique made by the group we call Calvinists: that is, those who say individuals must believe before salvation have made faith a work — work being that of which no man can boast or brag (Eph. 2:8-9).
Is Faith A Work? [Continued]

Amen...Jesus said we must have faith the size of a mustard seed...

...Also, the scripture which says 'before the foundation of the world' actually translates as ' before the world as we know it was established'....

Their whole concept actually robs God of glory... those that acknowledge Him as God do so because He is worthy and they have found it to be so... they don't acknowledge Him because He made them to-this would be worthless and contrived. Even the angels had free will which is why some are destined for the lake of fire. They were not created evil in the beginning.

 

[Butterflyyy]

Amen...Jesus said we must have faith the size of a mustard seed...

...Also, the scripture which says 'before the foundation of the world' actually translates as ' before the world as we know it was established'....

Their whole concept actually robs God of glory... those that acknowledge Him as God do so because He is worthy and they have found it to be so... they don't acknowledge Him because He made them to-this would be worthless and contrived. Even the angels had free will which is why some are destined for the lake of fire. They were not created evil in the beginning.

That is very sad indeed. And it is why false teachings should be identified and refuted.
This article is quite long however, it identifies the parts of scripture Calvinists invoke in order to inform others that they are the elect of God and by implication, others are not.

Did Jesus Die for All Men, or the Elect Only?

By: Chris Bradley
Last updated on: August 31, 2018​

Q: Did Jesus Die for All Men, or the Elect Only?, Pt. 1: The Meaning of “World” (John 3:16)
A: This is a question that you may have heard before from theologians and Bible scholars. You may have never even believed in a group of people known as the elect, but the term is not without biblical support. After all, Jesus speaks of “the elect” in Matthew 24:22, 24, and 31:

“Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved” (Matthew 24:22, New American Standard Bible).
“For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect” (Mt. 24:24).
“And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other” (Mt. 24:31).​

It is also present in the Gospels of Mark (Mk. 13:22, 27) and Luke (18:7). One of the more famous passages in which the Greek word eklektos, or eklektoi (Greek plural of “elect”) is used is Romans 8:33:
“Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;” (Rom. 8:33a)
These passages alone do justice to the concept of “the elect.” But exactly who are the elect? Depending on the Bible scholar or Pastor and his or her underlying beliefs, you will find two different answers: either 1) a special group chosen by God or 2) a group of individuals who choose to believe in Christ.
The two choices above have been written in distinction to make a point. Those who support the first definition believe that one must repent and believe the gospel. Where they will differ from those who support the second definition is that supporters of definition #1 believe that The Lord chose each believer from eternity; He decided to save a special group of humans while abandoning the rest of humanity (those who are called unbelievers).

One of the top passages used by those who support the Special Group idea (known as Calvinists, after theologian John Calvin who also endorsed the same view) is Ephesians 1:4-6, where phrases such as “He chose us in Him” (Eph. 1:4) and “in love He predestined us to adoption as sons” (1:5) are used. Calvinists (adherents to John Calvin’s theology) will say, ” The text says that ‘He chose’ and ‘He predestined,’ so what need is there for any other proof that the special group idea is right?” For the Calvinist, “chosen” implies election, and “predestined” means “chosen before time.”

While predestined does mean, by definition, “before the event happens,” and election does mean “choice,” to read the text as “chosen without regard to faith” is to misread what Paul (and John) will go on to say about Christ and salvation.
The truth of the matter is that Calvinists read the first part of the phrases above and miss the end of the phrases. When Ephesians 1:4 says that “He chose us in Him,” the phrase in Him is just as significant as He chose us. What does it mean to be “in Him”? It means to be “in Christ” (Eph. 1:1, 3, 5, 12, 13). What does it mean to be “in Christ”? It means to experience conversion, to believe in the gospel message. As Paul writes in the same chapter (Eph. 1:13):
“In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation — having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise” (Eph. 1:13).

There are three things to notice here about this verse. First, notice that it begins with “in Him,” a phrase that is used some five times in the first chapter of Ephesians (1:4, 7, 9, 10-11, 13). The phrase “in Christ” (Christ is the Him to which the possessive pronoun, Him, refers) is also used in the same passage (Eph. 1:1, 3, 10, 12, 20). Since it is “in Him” that the Ephesian Christians (and all Christians today) believe, then Paul states here that salvation comes by hearing the gospel message (“listening to the message of truth”) and believing in the message (“having also believed”).

What we can gather from Ephesians 1 is that believers come to Christ by way of the gospel message. They must first hear the message and then believe the message in order to be saved. Also, notice something else: Paul says, “having believed, you were sealed” — meaning that the Christians to whom Paul writes mentions the responsibility of humans to believe in the gospel message.
He refers to the gospel as “the gospel of your salvation,” showing that the gospel is central to the salvation of the Christians in Ephesus (and Christians today, see Romans 10:9, John 3:16).

Now, let us return to the question above: “Did Jesus die for all men, or the elect?” To answer this question, you must know who elect are. Who are they? The elect are those who hear the message and believe God is who He says He is and that He gives eternal life to those who seek Him (Hebrews 11:6). The individuals who come to God, however, must have faith, for “without faith it is impossible (is not possible) to please” God (Heb. 11:6).

All God asks that we give to Him is belief, trust. In the final analysis, the elect are not some special group who are first chosen prior to demonstrating any faith in Christ. It is only after a person confesses that Jesus is Lord (Rom. 10:9) that he or she is sealed with the Holy Spirit and designated as God’s own (Eph. 1:13). Paul also says that “those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness” (Rom. 5:17) are counted as God’s elect.

Once you understand who the elect are, you can then understand the meaning of “the world” throughout the text of Scripture. But before we cover the meaning of “the world,” we must first address a critique made by the group we call Calvinists: that is, those who say individuals must believe before salvation have made faith a work — work being that of which no man can boast or brag (Eph. 2:8-9).
Is Faith A Work? [Continued]

Yep👌Good article that, thank you👍

 

[Whispered]

I will have a look through that-thank you. I have found it to be that every scripture Calvinists have used, when I have studied the original language (Hebrew or Greek) the verses only disprove their doctrine. Also their doctrine does not line up with many other verses or God's character. They are adding to scripture. When I have tried to sincerely engage with them they have only used more misunderstood verses to shoot back at me rather than study and consider the true meanings. This, to me, amounts to brainwashing/indoctrination and reminds me of how Jehovah's Witnesses have, in my experience, refused to consider any other way except that path which they are on.

JW's are a whole other ball of wax. Calvinists aren't even certain if they are the Elect as Calvinism understands and teaches. That's the pity. There are staunch Calvinists in ministry, there's even a state called Hyper Calvinism. Yet, for all the protestations of those faithful to TULIP and Calvin's doctrine, their self assurance that predestination as the elect of God is true Gospel still does not convey to them that sense of security that it is they who were picked by God to be destined for the reward of Heaven.
Odd isn't it?
To precariously walk a tightrope in life adhering to a doctrine a man conceived after reworking scriptures to that effect, only to be on one's death bed in their twilight years so as to wonder then, am I the elect of God? Because of Calvinisms teaching that the elect one is a secret decree known to God alone. And that dying Calvinist could torture themselves in those last moments on earth wondering if what they held to all those years, days, weeks, was evanescent grace. (That means God faked your grace and you were not really one of His elect and as such you will suffer greater suffering than those whom God predestined to be damned.)

And closing their eyes, fading from this world, recalling all they accepted under Calvin's dogma, do they go in peace? Or do they fear what's next?

Can you imagine that? You're a die hard Calvinist. Argue TULIP as righteous and true all your days, and then, something tragic hits, you may die, and you recall that one little particle in John Calvin's book of tricks with scripture; Evanescent Grace.
Amid the TULIP protocols that the dedicated faithful argued on and on as true and of God, Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible grace, and Perseverance of the Saints, the one factor John didn't include in his theology nor amend TULIP with is the E. Evanescent Grace.
That E is precisely what tells us that Calvinism is a lie conjured from Hell's bowels and breathed out by John, its disciple.

Think of what Evanescent Grace says about God. Then recall the scripture that erases it; God is not a man that He should lie. And, God is no respecter of persons. (Which chucks Calvin's premise right out the window because of how Calvinism defines its Elect, using TULIP and teaching also Evanescent Grace. )

 

[Whispered]

Yep👌Good article that, thank you👍

You are most welcome.
It's a long article however, did you notice something? Many of the points the author brings out as to what Calvinists omit in scripture they cite only slightly, is the same stuff we've encountered from pro-Calvinism advocates here?
That's why I wanted to share it. In the hopes some may see the error of their ways and renounce the falsehood of Calvinism which does not bring the assurance of God's grace, and awaken to the truth of God's grace through faith.

Hey, if someone can't spend the little amount of time it takes to read and consider that articles very valid counterpoints to the tenets of Calvinism, so as to save themselves from a false tradition, imagine how much time they'll have to regret they didn't take the time once they're dead.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

"A recent study has found that women who carry a little extra weight live longer than the men who mention it." Unknown

 

[7seasrekeyed]

"ieuan, post: 4091424, member: 284561"]The way I see it is this,

Jesus died on the cross to call ALL men.

actually the scripture states He died to SAVE all men. we have a choice. this is not universalism as some claim, but the simple truth that God states WHOSOEVER WILL. your WILL plays a part. God is not a puppet master


Those that reject HIM do so under their own volition
and suffer the just penalty for this rejection of Holy God.
We all agree on this Arminians and so called Calvinists.

actually no. that is not what the Calvinists on here and Calvinists everywhere actually, believe. they believe that God actually must regenerate a person and then they accept Christ. they believe this backwards application to their own detriment

Those that are saved are saved because of Election before time,
When the world was made, God knew our names,
He knew the names of all believers
and He made sure of their election by imparting the new heart see Ezekiel 36:26

badly exegeted scripture and now you are stating the opposite of what you said previously. above you state Calvinists and Arminians believe the same and yet now you have plainly exerted Calvin's teaching over scripture. you really cannot have it both ways

"26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away
the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes,
and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."

Did Jesus atone for all men, well if He had atoned for the wicked then they would be saved,
because they rejected HIM His atonement never took place. However should they believe
before they died then the atonement took place for them.

this has been explained multiple times. you were not here. perhaps go back and look at some of the older threads that are/were recent debates regarding this topic. you have to understand this is one of the main topics for discussion in this forum so there is plenty to read. you are not introducing anyone who has been here for any length of time, to new interpretation

further, you are again defeating your own purpose and doubling back on what you stated above...yet again! you speak of choice and then you whip it away...so you really do not seem to be very convincing towards those who have studied this many times and reached the conclusion that some Calvinists try to persuade those who are not of their persuasion, that we are universalists. this is complete nonsense and the only desire behind this accusation is the attempt to create a personal argument ... something else that is designed to create anger.

As to total depravity, I will say this, without God we would be totally depraved
but because of His grace operatiing in this world our utter depravity is balance
by His love towards mankind.

where is the scripture for total depravity? I have seen some fancy twisting and cherry picking, but to date absolutely no total depravity at all. this would only be true if people were actually regenerated to be able to accept Christ. the utter bogus teaching here is simply heresy. note: that statement does not qualify as me calling you a heretic...sorry...not report worthy but feel free

I don't mind anyone disagreeing with me, but please keep your complaints
focussed on the thread not a general rage at Calvinists. I know some very
gentle Calvinists who are kind and very old woman who love their fellow man
and do good works but also hold to predestination and electon. Thank you all.

you are wrong in your conclusion that there are only two types of Christian. I am neither Calvinist (obviously) nor Arminium. and certainly, many here will tell you the same


I have never condemned any Arminian to hell, nor would I do so, we are all
loved of by God and therefore we must love one another.

well you CANNOT condemn anyone to hell anyway. that is not your place

 

[TooFastTurtle]

I reject both arminianism and calvinism. I believe both are man-made systems that are just mirroring and competing with each other.

 

[Whispered]

I reject both arminianism and calvinism. I believe both are man-made systems that are just mirroring and competing with each other.

And leading people to believe in the men for whom they are named. As is most every Denomination a testament of men's thinking s to how God's words should rightly be perceived.
A church divided. When there is one God, One truth, One Faith, One Salvation, for all people, why do we take sides, like partisanship in politics? Only the Republicans have it right. Only the Democrats have it right.
Jesus said this, and this is how we're saved! But not you...whoever you are that isn't one of us.

What Denomination was Jesus? I'll choose that one. He kept it simple and yet He knew it takes humans to make it complex.
Maybe that's why the door is narrow and the roadmap to it is delivered through Holy breath, not the doctrines of men. Notice that? All Denominations are born of and mostly named for the men that thought them up.

Should of left it to the women. We know to weep and anoint the Masters feet with our tears and wipe them dry with our hair.Now that's humility!
Whereas, mansnameism, is not.

 

[ieuan]

People condemn other to hell all the time.

I realise I have no power to do that, I am making the point that i don't do that.
Hell and judgement are for Christ.

Christians who are not sure about their salvation lack assurance.

The Elect of God are all those who believe on the Lord Jesus, there is nothing wrong
and there is much good in a Christian stating categorically that he believs he is saved
by the power of the Lord, by faith, nothing wrong in that.

I have every sympathy for the man who lacks assurance it shows he is alive.
You know no one kicks a dead dog. Why, because he's dead. The people who are
dead in sin don't care, the man who is cats don about his state is alive and there
is hope for that man.

I quote from the Cannons of Dord here:
1st Head of Doctrine- Predestination - article 16 [regarding assurance]

"Those who do not yet experience a lively faith in Christ, an assured confidence of soul, peace of conscience, an earnest endeavour after filial obedience, and glorying in God through Christ, efficaciously wrought in them, and do nevertheless persist in the use of the means which God hath appointed for working these graces in us, ought not to be alarmed at the mention of reprobation, nor to rank themselves among the reprobate, but diligently to persevere in the use of means, and with ardent desires devoutly and humbly to wait for a season of richer grace. Much less cause have they to be terrified by the doctrine of reprobation, who, though they seriously desire to be turned to God, to please Him only, and to be delivered from the body of death, cannot yet reach that measure of holiness and faith to which they aspire; since a merciful God has promised that He will not quench the smoking flax nor break the bruised reed. But this doctrine is justly terrible to those, who, regardless of God and of the Saviour Jesus Christ, have wholly given themselves up to the cares of the world and the pleasures of the flesh, so long as they are not seriously converted to God."

This artcle surely gives confidence to the trembling soul
that he should persevere in holiness and wait pateintly for
God to give the advance he so earnestly desires.