First Word of Jesus was repent

Mattathias · Jul 6, 2020

Previously in this thread I used the Tyndale Bible. There are many others which render the prologue in the same manner.

I’m not disagreeing with the translation you used. The connotation is different - you quickly picked up on that - but the apparent contradiction in the translations is resolved by an appeal to personification.

I readily admit that the Father’s logos, his word, became a person, a “he”, when “it” became flesh. I identify the incarnation of the Father’s logos as the begetting/conception/birth of Jesus. That’s what I see in scripture, not what I see in trinitarian theology.

Diakonos · Jul 6, 2020

Mattathias said:

Luke and Peter certainly were. Because they both affirm the deity of all three persons

Mattathias · Jul 6, 2020

Diakonos said:

Luke and Peter had no other God than the one whom Jesus himself has.

The early church was unitarian, not trinitarian. It didn’t remain unitarian, for the majority.

The history of the post-biblical development of the doctrine of the Trinity is well documented. I highly recommend to those interested in the subject A History of Christian Thought, written by Dr. J.L. Neve, a Lutheran scholar.

Diakonos · Jul 6, 2020

Mattathias said:

Fact: Luke and Peter affirmed the deity of the Holy Spirit.
Fact: Luke and Peter affirmed the deity of Jesus.
Fact: Luke and Peter affirmed the deity of the Father

call it what you want, but they believed that each was divine

Mattathias · Jul 6, 2020

Diakonos said:

Fact: Luke and Peter were well aware of the distinction between the Lord God and the Lord Messiah.

Fact: Jesus himself is unitarian. His God is only one person, not three persons.

Fact: The early church was unitarian.

Fact: History documents the church moving away from unitarianism to trinitarianism.

Diakonos · Jul 6, 2020

Mattathias said:

But the difference here is that all the facts I provided are Biblically internal. You have to go outside of the Bible and assume the early church was right. I only have to take the Bible as true to confirm all the facts I provided.
There was heresy in the 1st century, the church has and always will change and disagree and shift doctrinally, but the Bible remains as is written.

Are you aware that Jesus is explicitly called "God" 9 times in the NT?

Mattathias · Jul 6, 2020

Diakonos said:

I do assume that the early church was right, but I don’t have to go outside of the Bible to make that assumption. The Bible confirms the fact that Jesus is unitarian and that his followers were as well.

I think we should list them in order to establish that we are talking about the same verses.

1. John 1:1c
2. John 1:18
3. John 20:28
4. Romans 9:5
5. 2 Thessalonians 1:12
6. Titus 2:13
7. Hebrews 1:8-9
8. 2 Peter 1:1
9. 1 John 5:20

Are those in fact the 9 verses you have in mind? If not, please feel free to add and delete from the list to establish the passages you want us to discuss.

I’ve commented elsewhere that Jesus is referred to as elohim and theos with certainty several times in scripture.

You’ve not yet addressed the biblical fact that the God of Jesus is only one person, the Father.

If Jesus is our guide, why should he, as the head of the body, not be the final word, the authority, on the issue of who and how many persons the one true God is?

My contention is that there is nothing written in scripture, OT and NT, by any author, which contradicts or opposes Jesus’ own unitarian belief.

If you don’t accept that the God of Jesus is only one person is a biblical fact then I would appreciate if you would inform me of it and identify who and how many persons you believe scripture indicates his God are.

Diakonos · Jul 6, 2020

Mattathias said:

Then why do Peter and Luke call the Holy Spirit "God"?

Mattathias said:

There is a distinct difference. The authors of the new testament did their best to tell us that Jesus is divine, while simultaneously conveying that Jesus is not the Father.
They did this through the primary titles God and Lord:
The Father = God
Jesus= Lord
The majority of the NT refers to Jesus as "Lord".
The majority of the New Testament refers to the Father as God.
Although they both rightfully could be called either title, they are mostly referred by their primary title, to emphasize that they are in fact not the same person. They are one in being but separate in persons... this is also true for the Spirit of God (Also referred to as "the Spirit of Christ"-Rom 8:9; 1 Pet 1:11).

Mattathias said:

There is no tension with that statement and the Trinity (this is where I become the minority to my trinitarian friends).
Although Jesus and the Father are equal in essence, they are not equal in position. Just as in the Church and the family dynamic, there is order and submission, yet we are all equal in value and status.
So I admit, yes, Jesus submits to the Father, The Holy Spirit submits to Jesus and The Father...yet they are one (in essence), and different (in position-they have different roles).

Mattathias said:

Remember, (Theos) "God" is a title, not a name.
Jesus can only call one person "His God" because there is only one person who is positionally over Him.
The Holy Spirit can only call 2 people "His God" because there are only 2 people who are positionally higher than Him.
There are only 3 people that we can rightfully call by that title because there are 3 people who are positionally greater than us.
"The Lord is a plurality of one" (Deut 6:4)
The three persons are composites of one essence (being)...just my body, soul, and spirit are composites of one being. We are made in the image of God, we are triune by nature.

As for the divinity of Jesus, He
-Forgave sins
-Accepted worship
-Required submission from his followers
-Claimed to gave eternal life
-Must be honored with the same honor that is given to the Father
-Claimed equal with the Father
-Claimed the ability to answer prayer
-Called Lord and God
-Was preexistent in an exalted position
-Is in us
-Contains "all the fullness of the Godhead"
-Made the world (Heb 1)
-Is worshiped by angels
-Is eternal (uncreated)

Only a divine person can possess such things.

Mattathias said:

Some, yes. You forgot Philippians 4:4. (I don't have them all memorized)

soggykitten · Jul 6, 2020

Mattathias said:

I don't know what you're trying to say there. If it happens to be that Jesus was not divine, that he was not whom he said he was, please just say so. Thanks.

soggykitten · Jul 6, 2020

Mattathias said:

That's a very odd statement. I just arrived.

Mattathias · Jul 6, 2020

Diakonos said:

Do you recall our brief discussion about your logos being an ”it” or a “he”? You replied, in part, “That’s like asking if my spirit is it or he... it is who I am.” I agree. You are one person. The same is true of God. The Holy Spirit is who he is.

“For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.”

(1 Corinthians 2:11, NIV)

1. The key OT text for understanding the title applied to Jesus is Psalm 110:1.
2. The Father is identified as “God” something like 1700 times in the NT; Jesus, by your count, 9 times.

That’s an important point. Some unitarians believe the Father and Jesus are the same person. While Jesus himself is unitarian, he didn’t believe he and the Father are the same person. It is a fact that Jesus and the Father are not the same person.

Scripture doesn’t say the Father and Jesus are one being. Trinitarianism does.

The Trinity isn’t the God of Jesus. The Father is.

Scripture doesn’t speak about the essence of God. Trinitarianism does.

As for the matter of submission, subordinationism was an early belief in the church which had to be dealt with in the post-biblical development of the doctrine of the Trinity. It wasn’t possible for the church to move from unitarianism to trinitarianism until that problem was solved.

That’s right. The title is applied in scripture to the Father, to idols, angels, and human beings.

That person is the Father. By definition, the belief that a person’s God is only one person is unitarianism.

Jesus refers to the Father as “my God and your God”. In effect Jesus is saying that he is a unitarian and his followers are unitarians.

I’m unaware of the Holy Spirit making that statement anywhere in scripture. I’ve never read it in trinitarian writings and would be very interested to if you could point me to a source.

A quick summary:

The Father calls no one his God.
Jesus calls only one person, the Father, his God and our God.
The Holy Spirit can (but maybe hasn’t?) call the Father and Jesus “His God”.
None of the three call the Trinity our God.

I assume by “that title“ you mean theos, as applied to the God of Israel. I have shown in another thread that scripture identifies the God of Israel as the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Jesus - the Father.

I assume you‘re speaking about the three persons of the Trinity. The only person positionally greater than Jesus is God. God and Jesus are positionally greater than us.

”But I want you to that Christ the head of of every man, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.”

(1 Corinthians 11:3, ESV)

The Hebrew word for “one” in Deuteronomy 6:4 is echad. There is no plurality in echad. One mean one, not more than one. The Shema is a biblical unitarian creed, not a trinitarian creed.

For “essence” see above. Body, soul, and spirit aren’t persons. You are one person, not three persons.

Jesus’ God and our God is one person, not three persons.

Yes.

”[Jesus] is the image of the invisible God...”

(Colossians 1:15)

Jesus is one person. The invisible God is one person, the Father.

We are one person, not three persons, by nature.

I agree with some of these points but not all of them.

I agree that Jesus is a divine person but define the term as “godlike“.

That’s fine. With that addition the list expands to ten occurrences.

Mattathias · Jul 6, 2020

soggykitten said:

I’m saying that Jesus is a uniquely begotten/conceived human being whose life began in the womb of his mother.

I define “divine“ as “godlike”. When I use the term I’m saying that Jesus is like his God, the Father.

Jesus is who he says he is: the Messiah, the Son of God.

Thank you for asking for clarification.

Mattathias · Jul 6, 2020

soggykitten said:

He answered for you so I assumed that he knew what you believed. If he doesn’t know you then I reckon he just made a lucky guess! Either way, he was right.

Lion222 · Jul 6, 2020

Most first words are Mama or Dada. In the case of my daughter it was Lampa. She has a fascination with light.

Lion222 · Jul 6, 2020

Diakonos said:

That we know of...

soggykitten · Jul 6, 2020

Mattathias said:

You're welcome.
Jesus was God. God brought himself forth into human form in the womb of Mary. He was begotten, To bear; to bring forth.
John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known. John 10:30 The Father and I are one.

Diakonos · Jul 7, 2020

soggykitten said:

I don't understand what he is trying to say

Diakonos · Jul 7, 2020

Mattathias said:

This isn't an answer...unless you're suggesting that the Holy Spirit and the Father are the same person. Is that your view?

Mattathias said:

That is exactly my point..."God" (Theos) is the primary title of the Father.

Mattathias said:

Agreed. They are different persons, but one in essence.

Mattathias said:

So what then is meant by "The Lord is a plurality of one"? And what did Jesus mean by "The Father and I are one"? One what?
Also, I still haven't understood yet your position of the eternal nature of Jesus. Do you affirm that Jesus had no beginning?

Mattathias said:

True, but the Bible tells us not to worship idols, angels, and meat humans. Jesus accepted worship and expects it.

Mattathias said:

"Essense" = the intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, especially something abstract, that determines its character. Scripture does speak about God's essence, it just doesn't use the word essence (Actually, in some translations it does, but not most). The Scriptures also don't use the English word "Bible", but that doesn't' exclude that word from our conversations, does it?

These are some good examples of synonyms for His essense. But all throughout the Word, we can see explanations of His essense. The Father and The Son and the Spirit are described supprisingly similar.

Mattathias said:

There is a singular and plural form of the word echad. In Deuteronomy 6:4, אֶחָד was the exact word Moses used. It is echad in the plural form. Lexicons don't tell you how words are conjugated in the original languages. The same word is used in Numbers 13:23:
"Then they came to the valley of Eshcol and from there cut down a branch with a single cluster of grapes; and they carried it on a pole between two men, with some of the pomegranates and the figs."
In both, Deut 6:4 and Num 13, the plural form of echad is used to convey a plurality of one. A plurality of grapes is considered one cluster. You can think of the Godhead as a cluster of 3 grapes. The cluster is the total form with 3 distinct components. Grape A is not Grape B, But they are one in the sense that they are joined as 2 parts of the same whole.

Mattathias said:

I didn't say we were 3 persons, I said we were triune in nature. We are not exactly like God, but we are made after His likeness. Actually after their likeness. "Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness"...wow....1....2....3.

Mattathias said:

I didn't say He did say that in the Scriptures, I said "He can say that".

Mattathias said:

Agreed, there is no tension between these statements and Trinitarianism.

Mattathias said:

Who is "The First and the Last"? According to the chapters found between Isa 40-49, "there is no other besides Him"
...So who is it, Matthias?

Mattathias said:

Yep, That's what I've been saying. There is a positional submission among the Father and the Son and the Spirit, just like in the Church and the family dynamic.

Mattathias said:

Which one's are you struggling to accept?

Mattathias said:

The BGAD defines "divine" as:
"that which belongs to the nature and status of deity".

I rest my case

Diakonos · Jul 7, 2020

Lion222 said:

Right. We can only speak of that which we know

Mattathias · Jul 7, 2020

soggykitten said:

Scripture relates that God miraculously beget Jesus in the womb of his mother. The life of a begotten person begins in the womb. Jesus is a begotten person. His life began in the womb of Mary.

“No man has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.”

(John 1:18, NKJV)

The only begotten (there’s that bringing to life word again) son is Jesus.

Why is the unidentified translation (there are many that are rendered in this fashion) you quoted different from the translation I quoted? The manuscript sources are for the translations are different.

There is a massive amount of scholarship on the textual difficulties of this verse. Some think it more likely that the manuscript source your translation relies on is the most likely reading; some think it more likely that the manuscript the NKJV translation relies on is the most likely reading. Both camps have good arguments in their favor and good arguments against them. Which camp is correct isn’t certain.

Let’s assume that the manuscript source your translation relied on is somehow determined one day to be without doubt the correct reading. If that were ever to happen then John would be identifying Jesus as theos “God” in this verse. Does that negate the fact that Jesus himself has a God and that he says his God is our God? No. Would it mean that Jesus is the Father? No. Would it mean that Jesus is the Triune God? No. Would it mean that Jesus is the second person of the Trinity? No, though several centuries after John wrote the passage, church theologians would decide that it does.

Is there any other option to explain how Jesus can, very rarely, be called theos in scripture? Yes. And, if it were ever demonstrated beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is one of those very rare occurrences, that would be the option that preserves the unitarian belief held by Jesus. That option is described by the Jewish principle of agency.

Yes. The question is how they are one.

First Word of Jesus was repent

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