Faith/Works...How much faith? How much works?

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crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#921
Nov 24, 2012
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#921
louis said:
Do you understand what true acknowledgement of Christ is?
Jesus Christ is one with God; and God is love.
People like the Samaritan who in their actions acknowledge love, therefore acknowledge God and Jesus.
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Can you give me one Scripture that shows we are saved by our love?
Was John the Baptist saved according to your standard of love?...

Matthew 3:7 (KJV) But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Or maybe your idea of love is different?
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#922
Nov 24, 2012
30,770
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#922
garee said:
What the eyes see is that which is typified as sinful . With Jesus according to the Spirit of holiness, the Son of God .It must of been typified as sinful as the Son of man in order for the father not seen to pour out his Spirit on flesh according to the promise. The law of faith. "Believing God"
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When you 'see' your neighbor in distress, do you close your eyes lest you see something sinful?

garee said:
Yes they have an excellent format . It was there I was first given ears to hear the gospel and given a desire to look into things not seen, in a hope of seeking the approval of the author and perfecter of faith. They have a excellent main speaker named John Duckhorn Him and his wife Donna have a great ministry . previously missionaries for years .And there are many others able to give a gospel message.
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Well those men I listed believed God became man...why don't you? Why did you debate me on that point for a few posts? Look at your answer inpost #912.
 
L

louis

Senior Member
#923
Nov 1, 2017
1,102
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#923
crossnote said:
Can you give me one Scripture that shows we are saved by our love?
Was John the Baptist saved according to your standard of love?...

Matthew 3:7 (KJV) But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Or maybe your idea of love is different?
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Do you not see or hear?
Matthew 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#924
Nov 24, 2012
30,770
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#924
louis said:
Do you not see or hear?
Matthew 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
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Were those righteous because of their good works OR did they have good works because they were declared and made righteous?

Romans 5:19 (KJV) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Do you know by whose obedience we are made righteous? Is it our's or Jesus Christ?
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#925
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
#925
louis said:
Do you understand what true acknowledgement of Christ is?
Jesus Christ is one with God; and God is love.
People like the Samaritan who in their actions acknowledge love, therefore acknowledge God and Jesus.
Click to expand...
What I understand from the word of God is that you do not know what you are talking about....that is what I understand.....
 
C

corazondeldei

Active member
#926
Apr 17, 2019
151
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#926
teaching them to obey EVERYTHING I HAVE COMMANDED YOU...

NIV1984 Romans 15:18
I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obey God by what I have said and done—

Does the gospel of grace leads the Gentiles to obey God?

Who is the Lord of Paul? Isn't He the One who gave the GC, the same Lord of the 12 apostles?

NIV1984 1 Corinthians 4:6-7
Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not take pride in one man over against another. For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?

NIV1984 Romans 11:28-32
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

NIV1984 1 Peter 2:7-10
Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, “The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone,” and, “A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.” They stumble because THEY DISOBEY THE MESSAGE—which is also what they were destined for. But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

NIV1984 1 John 3:11
This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another.

NIV1984 1 John 3:15-18
Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him. This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.

The message of the cross is SELFLESS LOVE.






 
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corazondeldei

Active member
#927
Apr 17, 2019
151
33
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#927
corazondeldei said:
teaching them to obey EVERYTHING I HAVE COMMANDED YOU...

NIV1984 Romans 15:18
I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obey God by what I have said and done—

Does the gospel of grace leads the Gentiles to obey God?

Who is the Lord of Paul? Isn't He the One who gave the GC, the same Lord of the 12 apostles?

NIV1984 1 Corinthians 4:6-7
Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not take pride in one man over against another. For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?

NIV1984 Romans 11:28-32
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

NIV1984 1 Peter 2:7-10
Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, “The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone,” and, “A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.” They stumble because THEY DISOBEY THE MESSAGE—which is also what they were destined for. But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

NIV1984 1 John 3:11
This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another.

NIV1984 1 John 3:15-18
Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him. This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.

The message of the cross is SELFLESS LOVE.
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1 Corinthians 8:1-3
...Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. 2 The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know.3 But the man who loves God is known by God.

NIV1984 1 John 5:3
This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

NIV1984 1 John 2:3-6
We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

NIV1984 Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

"No deceiver would ever teach obedience to God and no true Christian would ever teach disobedience to God."
 
Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
#928
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
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#928
corazondeldei said:
1 Corinthians 8:1-3
...Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. 2 The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know.3 But the man who loves God is known by God.

NIV1984 1 John 5:3
This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

NIV1984 1 John 2:3-6
We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

NIV1984 Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

"No deceiver would ever teach obedience to God and no true Christian would ever teach disobedience to God."
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I couldn't help notice that you left off His commands! When people read the word "commands" the first thing that they think of is the Law of Moses, which is false. Below, John tells us what those commands are:

"And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment."

If you don't think that the Law given to Moses is not burdensome, trying keeping every single one of them without breaking even one.

When John's friends who belonged to the Pharisee group said "The Gentiles must be circumcised and made to obey the Law of Moses?" Then Peter responded "Now then, why do you test God by placing on the necks of the disciples a yoke (the law) that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear?"

Don't pigeonhole the word "commands" as referring to the keeping of the Mosaic Law. For His commands are to believe in His Son whom He sent and to love one another. It is these that are not burdensome.
 
C

corazondeldei

Active member
#929
Apr 17, 2019
151
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#929
Love is the fulfillment of the law (Romans 13:10)

The Gospel is the good news of our SALVATION, the WORD OF TRUTH.
It was preached to the Jews but they rejected it and stumbled because of their DISOBEDIENCE.

NIV1984 1 Peter 2:8
and, “A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.” They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.

And that message that was preached to both the circumcised and uncircumcised is about God's love for us, a SELFLESS LOVE. The Gospel of LOVE is the gospel of God, the gospel of our SALVATION, and LOVE according to John is to WALK IN OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS. (2John 1:6, 1John 3:16-18, 4:8-16, 5:1-5, Ephesians 1:13)

The Gospel preached by Paul regarding the life, death, burial, resurrection of Jesus and His shed blood on the cross is no different from the gospel preached to the Israelites. It is the message we have heard from the beginning.

NIV1984 1 John 3:11-18
This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother’s were righteous. Do not be surprised, my brothers, if the world hates you. We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him. This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.

NIV1984 Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

NIV1984 1 Corinthians 13:2
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but HAVE NOT LOVE, I am nothing.

NIV1984 Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

NIV1984 John 14:15
“If you love me, you will obey what I command.

The apostle Paul normally starts his letters by speaking about FAITH and concludes or closes with warnings and teachings about obedience to God. It is his intention and purpose or duty to lead the GENTILES to OBEY God.

NIV1984 Romans 15:18
I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obey God by what I have said and done—

...which agrees to what King Solomon wrote below,

NIV1984 Ecclesiastes 12:13-14
Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.
 
L

louis

Senior Member
#930
Nov 1, 2017
1,102
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#930
crossnote said:
Were those righteous because of their good works OR did they have good works because they were declared and made righteous?

Romans 5:19 (KJV) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Do you know by whose obedience we are made righteous? Is it our's or Jesus Christ?
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The Samaritan believed in his heart what was the right thing to do.
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#931
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
#931
crossnote said:
Were those righteous because of their good works OR did they have good works because they were declared and made righteous?

Romans 5:19 (KJV) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Do you know by whose obedience we are made righteous? Is it our's or Jesus Christ?
Click to expand...
Yes, the verses Louis is quoting are DESCRIPTIVE verses of a person who has been (past tense) made righteous in Christ, not prescriptive verses describing what one needs to do to become righteous.
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#932
Nov 24, 2012
30,770
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#932
louis said:
The Samaritan believed in his heart what was the right thing to do.
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Was the Samaritan righteous because of his good works OR did he have good works because they he was declared and made righteous?

Romans 5:19 (KJV) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Do you know by whose obedience we are made righteous? Is it our's or Jesus Christ?
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#933
Nov 24, 2012
30,770
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113
#933
louis said:
The Samaritan believed in his heart what was the right thing to do.
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Is the Samaritan an exception?...
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
(Rom 3:10)
 
L

louis

Senior Member
#934
Nov 1, 2017
1,102
86
48
#934
crossnote said:
Was the Samaritan righteous because of his good works OR did he have good works because they he was declared and made righteous?

Romans 5:19 (KJV) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Do you know by whose obedience we are made righteous? Is it our's or Jesus Christ?
Click to expand...
Righteousness equates to faith in doing what is right and just. It is the opposite of iniquity. The Samaritan believed in doing what was right and just. The Samaritan heard the voice of God/love in his heart, and believed in doing so. He was righteous by his belief in justice. His works were the result of his belief in doing what was right and just for his injured neighbor.

Romans 1:17 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Hebrews 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
 
L

louis

Senior Member
#935
Nov 1, 2017
1,102
86
48
#935
crossnote said:
Is the Samaritan an exception?...
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
(Rom 3:10)
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We have all sinned, including the Samaritan.
Nevertheless, the Samritans mercy/love for his neighbor shall cover a multitude of his sins (his lack of faith in doing what was right).

Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

1 Peter 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#936
Nov 24, 2012
30,770
3,679
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#936
louis said:
Righteousness equates to faith in doing what is right and just. It is the opposite of iniquity. The Samaritan believed in doing what was right and just. The Samaritan heard the voice of God/love in his heart, and believed in doing so. He was righteous by his belief in justice. His works were the result of his belief in doing what was right and just for his injured neighbor.

Romans 1:17 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Hebrews 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
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I'll ask you one last time because it is apparent you can't give me a straight answer to the question. You seem to want to equate 'faith', 'righteousness' and 'right doing' with each other without telling which comes first, as if they happen simultaneously. Here is the question again...

Were those righteous because of their good works OR did they have good works because they were declared and made righteous?

Do you know by whose obedience we are made righteous? Is it our's or Jesus Christ?
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#937
Nov 24, 2012
30,770
3,679
113
#937
louis said:
We have all sinned, including the Samaritan.
Nevertheless, the Samritans mercy/love for his neighbor shall cover a multitude of his sins (his lack of faith in doing what was right).

Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

1 Peter 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.
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Scripture never says that our love for others cover a multitude of our own sins. Love covers over other's sins.

Where did the love come from in the first place?
 
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louis

Senior Member
#938
Nov 1, 2017
1,102
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#938
crossnote said:
I'll ask you one last time because it is apparent you can't give me a straight answer to the question. You seem to want to equate 'faith', 'righteousness' and 'right doing' with each other without telling which comes first, as if they happen simultaneously. Here is the question again...

Were those righteous because of their good works OR did they have good works because they were declared and made righteous?
Click to expand...
You have to believe in something to act upon it, whether is it just (righteous), or unjust (inequitable).
They, like the Samaritan were not made righteous by their good works; their good works were the result of their belief.
To answer your question: I believe they like the Samaritan whom the Lord saw their faith in love from before the foundation of the world were declared and made righteous despite their and our faithless acts.

crossnote said:
Do you know by whose obedience we are made righteous? Is it our's or Jesus Christ?
Click to expand...
Obedience to faith in what Jesus represents, which is to love God/love, and love your neighbor.
 
L

louis

Senior Member
#939
Nov 1, 2017
1,102
86
48
#939
crossnote said:
Scripture never says that our love for others cover a multitude of our own sins. Love covers over other's sins.

Where did the love come from in the first place?
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If you, me, or someone like the Samaritan has mercy on their neighbor; the Lord will then likewise have mercy on they who have mercy on others. The love in the Samaritans heart was God.

Matthew 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#940
Nov 24, 2012
30,770
3,679
113
#940
louis said:
You have to believe in something to act upon it, whether is it just (righteous), or unjust (inequitable).
They, like the Samaritan were not made righteous by their good works; their good works were the result of their belief.
To answer your question: I believe they like the Samaritan whom the Lord saw their faith in love from before the foundation of the world were declared and made righteous despite their and our faithless acts.

Obedience to faith in what Jesus represents, which is to love God/love, and love your neighbor.
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Nevermind, I see this as an exercise in futility.
 
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