Every “solution” to the problem of evil is itself evil

[studentoftheword]

Dear studentoftheword,
Your beliefs are contradicted by the verses I posted. With your understanding, man's supposed "free will" is out of God's control and He must be on plan B, C, D, ... and so on and so on. But God is not like mankind and never makes mistakes nor does His desires go unfulfilled.

There are no verses of scripture that say mankind has a "free will". In fact, there are many verses which say just the opposite. God is in full control of mankind's "will" and we have no ability to do differently. Look at the verses below. Can't you see that they contradict what you believe?

I say -----
OH REALLY -----Well I guess you will just through this scripture out and say it doesn't exist ----and say your right --cause you want to be right instead of researching Scripture and knowing what the truth of Scripture says ----

First off God gave Adam a command ---not to eat of the tree of good and evil -----what do you call that --God's will ---so it was God's will for them not to eat the fruit from that tree ---that was His Will but they made a choice to eat from it ----no free will there ---oh no ------

QUESTION
Why would God give Adam a Command not to eat of the tree if it was God's will for him to eat from the tree -in the first place ----God would have said --go ahead and eat of the tree so I can make you sin and be banished from my garden and so you will spread sin all over my world ---

your logic makes no sense ------


Second ----you say there is no scripture giving us free choice ------Well that just shows your ignorance in really knowing Scripture ----


Deuteronomy 30:15-20

Easy-to-Read Version

15 “Today I have given you a choice between life and death, success and disaster.[a]

16 I command you today to love the Lord your God. I command you to follow him and to obey his commands, laws, and rules. Then you will live, and your nation will grow larger. And the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take for your own.

17 But if you turn away from your God and refuse to listen, if you are led away to worship and serve other gods,

18 you will be destroyed. I am warning you today, if you turn away from God, you will not live long in that land across the Jordan River that you are ready to enter and take for your own.


19 “Today I am giving you a choice of two ways. And I ask heaven and earth to be witnesses of your choice. You can choose life or death.
The first choice will bring a blessing. The other choice will bring a curse. So choose life! Then you and your children will live.

20 You must love the Lord your God and obey him. Never leave him, because he is your life. And he will give you a long life in the land that he, the Lord, promised to give to your ancestors—Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.”

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I say

God gives blessings for choice to obey
God gives Curses for choice to disobey -----see Deuteronomy 28 ---Blessings ----Curses ---we choose what we bring upon ourselves ----

Free will to choose ----you create your own eternal home --eternal life ---eternal death ----our choice --

GOD"S WILL ______IS FOR US TO CHOOSE ______LIFE NOT DEATH ---free Choice Folks -----can't blame God or Satan for your choices ---verse 19 you have 2 way choice

19 “Today I am giving you a choice of two ways.
The first choice will bring a blessing. The other choice will bring a curse. So choose life!

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https://www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/bible-verses-about-free-will/

These Bible verses about free will show us that we have the ability to choose and have faith in God, being secure in our eternal life in heaven, or we can choose to turn from God and live apart from Him.
Use these Scriptures to help you make wise choices!

John 7:17
Chapter Parallel Compare
17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

Joshua 24:15
Chapter Parallel Compare
15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”

Galatians 5:13
Chapter Parallel Compare
13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh ; rather, serve one another humbly in love.

Galatians 5:16-17
Chapter Parallel Compare
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each
other


NO FREE CHOICE -----I think your grasping at straws with your thinking on that ----

 

[FaithWillDo]

I say -----
OH REALLY -----Well I guess you will just through this scripture out and say it doesn't exist ----and say your right --cause you want to be right instead of researching Scripture and knowing what the truth of Scripture says ----

First off God gave Adam a command ---not to eat of the tree of good and evil -----what do you call that --God's will ---so it was God's will for them not to eat the fruit from that tree ---that was His Will but they made a choice to eat from it ----no free will there ---oh no ------

QUESTION
Why would God give Adam a Command not to eat of the tree if it was God's will for him to eat from the tree -in the first place ----God would have said --go ahead and eat of the tree so I can make you sin and be banished from my garden and so you will spread sin all over my world ---

your logic makes no sense ------

Dear studentoftheword,
You asked:
QUESTION
Why would God give Adam a Command not to eat of the tree if it was God's will for him to eat from the tree -in the first place ----God would have said --go ahead and eat of the tree so I can make you sin and be banished from my garden and so you will spread sin all over my world --

God gave the command to Adam so that when Adam broke the command, it would expose Adam's sinful nature to him. God also gave the Nation of Israel the Law for the same reason. Mankind cannot ever be good enough in our created spiritual condition. God wants mankind to know this truth so that we will eventually be led to Christ who can change our spiritual condition. Christ is the only one who can do this work.

The better question to ask is "why did God make mankind spiritually flawed to begin with, knowing that we will become carnally minded and sinful"?

I answered that question in detail in my first post on this thread. The short answer is that God's purpose for this creation is to create new children who are "like Him" both in spirit and in knowledge. This is the meaning of life that seems to elude most people and even "called out" believers.

This creation is how God reproduces Himself. Mankind's destiny is to be God's offspring. Part of the birthing process God takes us through is for us to acquire the knowledge of "good and evil". To satisfy that purpose, God decided that mankind should experience "evil", not just on the receiving end of it but also on the giving end of it. Once God's purpose for evil as been satisfied, God will take away the evil and replace it with "good". To accomplish this goal, God sent Christ into the world. When Christ's work is finished, evil will cease to exist because ALL MANKIND will be fully made into the image of God who is only "good". We will be like Christ, who is like the Father. We will all be without sin and we will be "one" with the Father just as Christ is "one" with the Father. Death (which results from sin) will be defeated. All mankind will be in the Kingdom of Heaven and then God will be "all in all".

God is truly all powerful and He rules in the hearts and minds of mankind. God is spirit and in the hearts and minds of mankind is where His spiritual work is done. But since mankind is "carnal" (of this world), we are spiritually blind and cannot perceive the work that God does within us. But it makes no difference, God will accomplish all that He said He would do. Mankind's "will" is no match for God. God even said this about us:

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

God's Word (Christ) has gone out from His mouth and it will not return to Him void - Christ will deliver up the Kingdom of Heaven to the Father and it contain 100% of mankind (all who died in Adam). No one will be left out because mankind's salvation happens because it is the Father's "will" for it to happen. Mankind's supposed "free will" cannot stop Him.

To believe that mankind's "will" is as powerful as God's "will" only proves that we have fallen prey to Satan and have become a "Man of Sin" as Paul described below:

2Thes 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that Man of Sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Jesus described this portion of the pathway to salvation this way:

Mat 12:43-45 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation

Unclean (evil) spirits represent Satan's false truth. Since a new believer remains spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25) after receiving the Early Rain (when they are "called out" and enter the church), they cannot replace their worldly false beliefs with God's truth. One "evil spirit" leaves but comes back with seven more (represents the spirit of anti-Christ) since our house remains void of God's truth. Now, instead of "one evil spirit" within us, we now have EIGHT. The number EIGHT spiritually represents a new spiritual condition. In this case, our new spiritual condition is "worse than the first". Paul calls this worsened spiritual condition the Man of Sin.

This time of "falling away" described above happens to everyone who has been "called out". It is a part of the pathway to salvation.

Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

"Every word" includes to both "evil and good":

Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed evil and good?

This time of evil is the time period presented by Daniel as a time, times and half a time - also called 3 1/2 days, 3 1/2 years, 1260 days and 42 months. It is our time of "Great Tribulation".

Most "called out" believers will remain in this worsen spiritual condition until they physically die but a "few" of this group will be saved.

Matt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Those saved in this age are the ones who have been "chosen from the foundation of the world" to be heirs and First Fruits of Christ's harvest of mankind. No one else will be saved by Christ in this age. They will only be saved at end of the final age (the Lake of Fire age).

I will answer your next question in my next post.

Joe

 

[Evmur]

One thing I’ve noticed when the problem of evil is raised against Christians is that most believers go on defense in explaining why evil exists and how it does not negate the existence of God. There’s nothing wrong with this, but it’s an incomplete response.

We should be evaluating the proposed solutions to the problem of evil. In other words, let’s presuppose the existence of God. How would (or should) this God act, according to atheists? Put another way: what features would God have, concerning evil, if atheists could (from their perspective) will God into existence?

The atheist will say, for instance, that if God exists He would have to eradicate all evil. Okay, but this would destroy free will. Most people recognize free will is itself a virtue if for no other reason than that it allows us to do good, including to love. If God eliminates all human evil - and, with it, human free will - then He eliminates all good as well. Ironically, this act of eliminating evil would create more evil.

Automatons (which is exactly what humans would become) cannot do good, at least not out of some genuine desire to do it. They cannot love. This would be an act of evil.

But what about the really bad stuff, the atheist may say. Why can’t God eliminate the really terrible stuff like childhood cancer or brutal murders or years and years of abject suffering? Maybe this God, this figment of the atheist’s imagination, could just eliminate the really bad stuff and allow everything else.

First off, how do you draw the line between the really bad stuff and everything else? And second, if God were to eliminate SOME evil by intervening in human free will, then He would have to eliminate ALL evil (which gets back to the free will issue above).

God would have to eliminate even relatively benign evils like gossip, bad thoughts, forgetting to cover your mouth when you cough, etc.

If God were to draw an arbitrary line and allow some evil but eliminate others, isn’t that itself evil? Why prevent evil by divine fiat for some but not all? This solution is also evil.

Moreover, it would be a divine sort of discrimination. God would be treating some humans better than others by eliminating the suffering of some but not of all. All things being equal, treating people differently on purpose without a valid reason (and arbitrarily drawing a line between “unacceptable” and “acceptable” evil is certainly not valid) is discrimination, which is evil.

I suppose the ultimate solution would be for God to just snuff us all out. That’s one sure way to eliminate evil! Do I need to explain why this, also, is itself evil?

When you examine every possible solution put forth by atheists to the problem of evil, they are all themselves evil. Our only alternative is to seek explanations of why evil exists and how it is compatible with a loving and all-powerful God.

If you take this to it's logical conclusion when God does finally destroy all evil He will be acting immorally by taking away man's supposed freewill, I never saw the place where God gave man freewill "behold I give unto you freewill"

He gave man a choice do good and live or do evil and die ... and since dead men have no freewill there is only one viable option.

 

[Evmur]

I say -----
OH REALLY -----Well I guess you will just through this scripture out and say it doesn't exist ----and say your right --cause you want to be right instead of researching Scripture and knowing what the truth of Scripture says ----

First off God gave Adam a command ---not to eat of the tree of good and evil -----what do you call that --God's will ---so it was God's will for them not to eat the fruit from that tree ---that was His Will but they made a choice to eat from it ----no free will there ---oh no ------

QUESTION
Why would God give Adam a Command not to eat of the tree if it was God's will for him to eat from the tree -in the first place ----God would have said --go ahead and eat of the tree so I can make you sin and be banished from my garden and so you will spread sin all over my world ---

your logic makes no sense ------


Second ----you say there is no scripture giving us free choice ------Well that just shows your ignorance in really knowing Scripture ----


Deuteronomy 30:15-20

Easy-to-Read Version

15 “Today I have given you a choice between life and death, success and disaster.[a]

16 I command you today to love the Lord your God. I command you to follow him and to obey his commands, laws, and rules. Then you will live, and your nation will grow larger. And the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take for your own.

17 But if you turn away from your God and refuse to listen, if you are led away to worship and serve other gods,

18 you will be destroyed. I am warning you today, if you turn away from God, you will not live long in that land across the Jordan River that you are ready to enter and take for your own.


19 “Today I am giving you a choice of two ways. And I ask heaven and earth to be witnesses of your choice. You can choose life or death.
The first choice will bring a blessing. The other choice will bring a curse. So choose life! Then you and your children will live.

20 You must love the Lord your God and obey him. Never leave him, because he is your life. And he will give you a long life in the land that he, the Lord, promised to give to your ancestors—Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.”

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I say

God gives blessings for choice to obey
God gives Curses for choice to disobey -----see Deuteronomy 28 ---Blessings ----Curses ---we choose what we bring upon ourselves ----

Free will to choose ----you create your own eternal home --eternal life ---eternal death ----our choice --

GOD"S WILL ______IS FOR US TO CHOOSE ______LIFE NOT DEATH ---free Choice Folks -----can't blame God or Satan for your choices ---verse 19 you have 2 way choice

19 “Today I am giving you a choice of two ways.
The first choice will bring a blessing. The other choice will bring a curse. So choose life!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

https://www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/bible-verses-about-free-will/

These Bible verses about free will show us that we have the ability to choose and have faith in God, being secure in our eternal life in heaven, or we can choose to turn from God and live apart from Him.
Use these Scriptures to help you make wise choices!

John 7:17
Chapter Parallel Compare
17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

Joshua 24:15
Chapter Parallel Compare
15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”

Galatians 5:13
Chapter Parallel Compare
13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh ; rather, serve one another humbly in love.

Galatians 5:16-17
Chapter Parallel Compare
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each
other


NO FREE CHOICE -----I think your grasping at straws with your thinking on that ----

View attachment 236061

Respectfully free choice is not free will.

Freewill would be if we could say "ok God I will disobey You but I refuse to die"

 

[FaithWillDo]

Second ----you say there is no scripture giving us free choice ------Well that just shows your ignorance in really knowing Scripture ----


Deuteronomy 30:15-20

Easy-to-Read Version

15 “Today I have given you a choice between life and death, success and disaster.[a]

16 I command you today to love the Lord your God. I command you to follow him and to obey his commands, laws, and rules. Then you will live, and your nation will grow larger. And the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take for your own.

17 But if you turn away from your God and refuse to listen, if you are led away to worship and serve other gods,

18 you will be destroyed. I am warning you today, if you turn away from God, you will not live long in that land across the Jordan River that you are ready to enter and take for your own.


19 “Today I am giving you a choice of two ways. And I ask heaven and earth to be witnesses of your choice. You can choose life or death.
The first choice will bring a blessing. The other choice will bring a curse. So choose life! Then you and your children will live.

20 You must love the Lord your God and obey him. Never leave him, because he is your life. And he will give you a long life in the land that he, the Lord, promised to give to your ancestors—Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.”

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear studentoftheword,
You said:
Second ----you say there is no scripture giving us free choice ------Well that just shows your ignorance in really knowing Scripture ----
Deuteronomy 30:15-20
Easy-to-Read Version

15 “Today I have given you a choice between life and death, success and disaster.[a]

16 I command you today to love the Lord your God. I command you to follow him and to obey his commands, laws, and rules. Then you will live, and your nation will grow larger. And the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take for your own.

17 But if you turn away from your God and refuse to listen, if you are led away to worship and serve other gods,

18 you will be destroyed. I am warning you today, if you turn away from God, you will not live long in that land across the Jordan River that you are ready to enter and take for your own.

19 “Today I am giving you a choice of two ways. And I ask heaven and earth to be witnesses of your choice. You can choose life or death.
The first choice will bring a blessing. The other choice will bring a curse. So choose life! Then you and your children will live.

20 You must love the Lord your God and obey him. Never leave him, because he is your life. And he will give you a long life in the land that he, the Lord, promised to give to your ancestors—Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.”

Here is the definition of FREE WILL: the power or capacity to choose among alternatives or to act in certain situations independently of natural, social, or divine restraints.

Scripture teaches that mankind has "divine restraints":

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, Thou appointest peace to us, For, all our works also Thou hast wrought for us.

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

These verses above ALL teach that there are "divine restraints" on mankind's "will" and ability to "choose". There are NO VERSES that state differently. Evidently, you do not understand what having a "free will" ability to choose really is. ONLY GOD HAS THIS ABILITY, MANKIND DOES NOT.

Look at this simple analogy: a computer makes "choices" all day long but no one would say that the computer has a "free will". The choices that the computer (mankind) makes are caused by the programmer (God). The programmer as a "free will" but the computer does not.

The Doctrine of Free Will is a "works based belief system" and is rejected by God. We are saved by Grace through Faith and not of works. Mankind has no "works" which can save us. 100% of the work that must be done for our salvation comes from God through Christ. He is the Savior. We contribute nothing.

Eph 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The Doctrine of Free Will is the most common belief that causes us to "fall away". We use this false belief system to justify why unbelievers are worthy of "hell" and why we are not. We falsely believe that we are wiser or smarter or simply less evil than those who reject Christ. And because of this belief, we take credit for making the right "choice" to accept Christ. But in truth, the credit is not ours. It was Christ's work within us that caused us to accept Him as "Lord". In our spiritually flawed and carnally minded condition we have from birth, no man will even seek to know God (Rom 3:10-11, Rom 8:7), much less accept Him as Lord.

Scripture clearly says that unless Christ gives us the Holy Spirit (the FREE GIFT), we cannot call Him Lord.

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Only after Christ comes to us and gives us the Early Rain of the Spirit can we call Christ “Lord”. Paul’s Damascus Road experience is the “pattern” (type) whereby we all must follow in order to be “called out from the world”. Christ came to Paul on the Damascus Road, uninvited by Paul, and gave Paul the Early Rain. Paul had no choice in the matter as to whether to accept the Spirit or to reject the Spirit. The Spirit was given to Him and after it was, Paul fell to his knees and called Christ “Lord. This begins Daniel's "time, times and half a time" when when a believer is deceived by Satan and falls away.

After a Called Out believer has “fallen away” and is no longer saved, Christ must come to them a second time with the Latter Rain or they will die in their sins and receive their “portion” with the unbelievers. If the Called Out believer is one of the “few” and has been chosen from the foundation of the world, Christ will come to them again. And when He comes, He brings salvation with Him.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Just a quick note on this verse: Christ “appeared” the first time in the flesh and took away the sins of the world on the cross. When He comes to an unbeliever with the Early Rain, He does not “appear” to them but remains hidden from their understanding. He is veiled or hidden in the cloud. The Early Rain event is not an “appearance”, it is a visitation. When Christ comes to a Called Out believer with the Latter Rain, He “appears” to them at this time. When He comes, He fully heals their spiritual blindness and the Light of His appearing will destroy the Man of Sin whom they have become. It is at this point, the new child of God is born.

Joe

 

[Evmur]

You can believe that if you want to ----God did not create Lucifer to become Satan ----God gave all Angels and Humans Free Will to choose -----if we didn't have free will we would be God's Puppets just pulled on a string ----Lucifer had a choice ----to be come prideful or do what God created him to do and that was Protect what is God's ------Rebellion is a choice ---other Angels joined Satan in their rebellion so what --your blaming God for that to ------they didn't have a choice -----I think you need to study scripture more ----that is my view on that -----

If you want to blame God for our free choices DISOBEY HIM ---well you can certainly do that ---THAT IS YOUR FREE CHOICE To Do THAT ___BUT THAT IS NOT GOD"S WILL FOR YOU TO THINK THAT ----THAT IS YOUR PERSONAL CHOICE --THAT IS SATAN PUTTING EVIL THOUGHTS IN YOUR MIND

and that how I see that

I say -----All your doing is playing the blame game ----saying it is God;s will to Sin when it is a choice to sin or not ----

Your just one who does't like taking responsibility for your own actions and like to blame God saying it is His Will ----Your wrong and that is how I see that -----

This is to overlook the grand deception, Satan deceived them into believing they would not die. In other words he deceived them into believing they had freewill "go ahead, you'll be like God ... don't you want to be like God?"

Only God has free sovereign will.

 

[FaithWillDo]

This is to overlook the grand deception, Satan deceived them into believing they would not die. In other words he deceived them into believing they had freewill "go ahead, you'll be like God ... don't you want to be like God?"

Only God has free sovereign will.

Dear Evmur,
You are exactly right - "only God has a free sovereign will".
Joe

 

[posthuman]

One thing we should let atheists know is that God does eradicate all evil in the lives of people who follow Jesus.. Of course there is a whole lot of correction that goes along with being made in his image, but what parent doesn correct his child?

Bad behavior that refuses correction will someday be eradicated another way.

You bring up a good point - that evil only exists within time; a day of judgment is coming. Since it is coming, the exiof evil is only temporary, and this space of time in which it is allowed to go on is God's patience with us, which is meant for us to repent.
The real problem is people curse God instead of repenting - but that too will have its resolution, when every knee bows and He separates the sheep from the goats.

 

[studentoftheword]

To Evmur and FaithWillDo

This is to overlook the grand deception, Satan deceived them into believing they would not die.

Yes you are right for one of them ---Satan Deceived Eve -----not Adam -----Adam was in charge of the Garden ---Eve was sent as his Helper ----Adam was not deceived ---Adam could have saved the day by refusing the fruit from Eve ---Adam made a choice to take the fruit from Eve ----

The corrupt Seed come from Adam ------Eve was deceived -----and got pain in Child Birth---and was told man would rule over her ---Adam was Cursed as he was made from the dust of the ground ----and so all the earth was cursed ---Adams Seed was cursed -----the Sin Nature comes from the male -sperm ----that is why Jesus had to be born of a woman without Joseph ----the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary -----so Jesus was sinless ----and Holy -----

Again you need to read your scripture -----verse 14----


1 Timothy 2:9-15 AMP

Women Instructed
9 Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves modestly and appropriately and discreetly in proper clothing, not with [elaborately] braided hair and gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but instead adorned by good deeds [helping others], as is proper for women who profess to worship God. 11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with all submissiveness. 12 I do not allow a woman to [a]teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet [in the congregation].


13 For Adam was formed first [by God from the earth], then Eve;

14 and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman who was led astray and [b]fell into sin.

15 But women will be [c]preserved (saved) through [the pain and dangers of] the bearing of children [d]if they continue in faith and love and holiness with self-control and discretion.


You 2 people who are saying that humans have no free will to make decisions in our lives ---are being duped -by Satan ------

We have no free will to interfere with God's plan for this planet ------We had no free will to Stop Jesus from going to His death and resurrection -----that is for sure ------but we humans make decisions every day in our lives -----and many times we make the wrong decisions -----and end up putting ourselves in a mess ------

do we have free will to Choose -----Yes we do

Ask people who get in a car drunk and drives and end up killing the person ------and has to go to prison for a few years ------ask the married man who wakes up in a married woman's bed and ruins his marriage ----and your saying this man had no free will to choose to climb into bed with this person ------

The guy says ----OH HOW DID I GET HERE __I"M MARRIED ___I GUESS IT WAS GOD"D WILL FOR ME TO COMMIT ADULTERY ----how crazy it that to you 2 -----------

So I say to your both ---carry on with your belief and I will stick with mine ------not one of us is going to change how we think so ----I say it is a fruitless conversation -------

Here is the real truth -----we will know the Truth when we meet with God and bow to Him in our end ----

 

[FaithWillDo]

To Evmur and FaithWillDo



Yes you are right for one of them ---Satan Deceived Eve -----not Adam -----Adam was in charge of the Garden ---Eve was sent as his Helper ----Adam was not deceived ---Adam could have saved the day by refusing the fruit from Eve ---Adam made a choice to take the fruit from Eve ----

The corrupt Seed come from Adam ------Eve was deceived -----and got pain in Child Birth---and was told man would rule over her ---Adam was Cursed as he was made from the dust of the ground ----and so all the earth was cursed ---Adams Seed was cursed -----the Sin Nature comes from the male -sperm ----that is why Jesus had to be born of a woman without Joseph ----the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary -----so Jesus was sinless ----and Holy -----

Again you need to read your scripture -----verse 14----


1 Timothy 2:9-15 AMP

Women Instructed
9 Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves modestly and appropriately and discreetly in proper clothing, not with [elaborately] braided hair and gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but instead adorned by good deeds [helping others], as is proper for women who profess to worship God. 11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with all submissiveness. 12 I do not allow a woman to [a]teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet [in the congregation].


13 For Adam was formed first [by God from the earth], then Eve;

14 and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman who was led astray and [b]fell into sin.

15 But women will be [c]preserved (saved) through [the pain and dangers of] the bearing of children [d]if they continue in faith and love and holiness with self-control and discretion.


You 2 people who are saying that humans have no free will to make decisions in our lives ---are being duped -by Satan ------

We have no free will to interfere with God's plan for this planet ------We had no free will to Stop Jesus from going to His death and resurrection -----that is for sure ------but we humans make decisions every day in our lives -----and many times we make the wrong decisions -----and end up putting ourselves in a mess ------

do we have free will to Choose -----Yes we do

Ask people who get in a car drunk and drives and end up killing the person ------and has to go to prison for a few years ------ask the married man who wakes up in a married woman's bed and ruins his marriage ----and your saying this man had no free will to choose to climb into bed with this person ------

The guy says ----OH HOW DID I GET HERE __I"M MARRIED ___I GUESS IT WAS GOD"D WILL FOR ME TO COMMIT ADULTERY ----how crazy it that to you 2 -----------

So I say to your both ---carry on with your belief and I will stick with mine ------not one of us is going to change how we think so ----I say it is a fruitless conversation -------

Here is the real truth -----we will know the Truth when we meet with God and bow to Him in our end ----

Dear studentoftheword,
Why have you not responded to the many verses that I have presented that clearly say mankind does not have a "free will"???

With the stories you presented above about drunk driving and adultery, you have overlooked what scripture says about our God's "will" and our sin. Paul was asked about this very subject about why God still holds us accountable for our sin in light of the truth that God is the cause of our sin happening in the first place. You should read all of Romans chapter 9 where God's "will" and sin are addressed. Here are a couple of the key verses from that chapter:

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Here Paul is saying that mankind has no "free will" ability to deviate from God's "will". And that even when we sin, it is because it is God's "will" for it to happen. Because this is true, this question is asked "why doth He yet find fault?"

Here is Paul's answer to the question in verse 19:

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Here are my thoughts on the matter: God holds mankind accountable for our sins which He causes because it suits His purposes to do so. God is teaching mankind the difference between good and evil. If God doesn't create evil, then there wouldn't be any evil. If He doesn't hold us accountable for willingly doing the evil, how can mankind learn right from wrong?

Ultimately, God took the responsibility for making us evil by sending Christ to bring mankind out from the evil He created. By Christ's death on the cross and His ongoing work within mankind, all mankind will be born again and made righteous. In the end, God will wipe away all the tears from our eyes:

Rev 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

God removes the evil He created by changing everyone from within (spiritually) so that we are "born again" and will never sin again. The Law cannot remove "evil" from existence, it can only limit it by using fear. That is why the Old Covenant of Law cannot save us. This method of fear is commonly practiced in the "church" to this day and that is why they teach and follow the Doctrines of Free Will and Hell. But these doctrines are evil and they blaspheme the name of Christ in this world. These doctrines cause all who follow them to "fall away" because they are a "works" based belief system. When a believer attempts to be acceptable to God through their own works (even just taking credit for their confession of faith), they commit the sin that leads to death. Only the saving work of Christ within us can save us. It is a FREE GIFT from God which requires no "works" from mankind. When Christ comes to us (and He will come to each of us someday), He gives us His free gifts which will change us from within. Once this event happens, we confess Him as Lord. That confession of faith is a work of Christ and not a work of man, lest any man should boast. God has established a time for every person who has ever lived to receive this gift and be saved. In this present age, Christ is ONLY appearing to and saving the heirs, the First Fruits of His harvest of mankind. Everyone else will remain lost and be resurrected in that same marred spiritual condition. Then, in the final age, Christ with the help of the First Fruits, will begin His saving work within the rest of mankind. By the end of that final age, all mankind will be saved and God will be "all in all". Evil will then cease to exist.

Joe

 

[KrisWampler]

If you take this to it's logical conclusion when God does finally destroy all evil He will be acting immorally by taking away man's supposed freewill, I never saw the place where God gave man freewill "behold I give unto you freewill"

He gave man a choice do good and live or do evil and die ... and since dead men have no freewill there is only one viable option.

It's my belief, and I don't know for sure, but we are ultimately sanctified when we are in God's kingdom, and given such knowledge and understanding that we will no longer want to sin.

Another way of seeing it: those who choose to be with God will choose only to want to do good, to erase our sinful natures that lead us into temptation. To the extent this detracts from free will, it's a voluntary choice, just like binding oneself to another in a contract.

 

[Journeyman]

evil only exists within time; a day of judgment is coming. Since it is coming, the exiof evil is only temporary, and this space of time in which it is allowed to go on is God's patience with us, which is meant for us to repent.
The real problem is people curse God instead of repenting - but that too will have its resolution, when every knee bows and He separates the sheep from the goats.

Right, so for the time being,

By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil. Pro.16:6

 

[Aerials1978]

One thing we should let atheists know is that God does eradicate all evil in the lives of people who follow Jesus.. Of course there is a whole lot of correction that goes along with being made in his image, but what parent doesn correct his child?

Bad behavior that refuses correction will someday be eradicated another way.

I would ask an atheist by what standard other than themselves what are they basing anything is good or evil.

 

[Journeyman]

I would ask an atheist by what standard other than themselves what are they basing anything is good or evil.

That's a good question. Unfortunately when people believe God doesn't exist, they're left with the delusion that morality isn't constant, but evolved over time. Then, a "new" morality developes. Good and evil become what the atheist thinks they are. What happens is, what everyone knew was good or evil get reversed.

 

[KrisWampler]

I would ask an atheist by what standard other than themselves what are they basing anything is good or evil.

The inevitable answer is that might makes right. This is why they have no real moral objection to genocide and other horrible abuses of power. How can they? All morality is relative if there is no God, so whoever can overpower everyone else sets the rules.

 

[Nehemiah6]

One thing I’ve noticed when the problem of evil is raised against Christians is that most believers go on defense in explaining why evil exists and how it does not negate the existence of God.

There is no glib answer for why evil exists. Perhaps the only way to look at evil is to see it as a test for those who are righteous.

 

[Lanolin]

I wouldnt worry or even bother with what atheists think honestly.

 

[peldom10]

One thing I’ve noticed when the problem of evil is raised against Christians is that most believers go on defense in explaining why evil exists and how it does not negate the existence of God. There’s nothing wrong with this, but it’s an incomplete response.

We should be evaluating the proposed solutions to the problem of evil. In other words, let’s presuppose the existence of God. How would (or should) this God act, according to atheists? Put another way: what features would God have, concerning evil, if atheists could (from their perspective) will God into existence?

The atheist will say, for instance, that if God exists He would have to eradicate all evil. Okay, but this would destroy free will. Most people recognize free will is itself a virtue if for no other reason than that it allows us to do good, including to love. If God eliminates all human evil - and, with it, human free will - then He eliminates all good as well. Ironically, this act of eliminating evil would create more evil.

Automatons (which is exactly what humans would become) cannot do good, at least not out of some genuine desire to do it. They cannot love. This would be an act of evil.

But what about the really bad stuff, the atheist may say. Why can’t God eliminate the really terrible stuff like childhood cancer or brutal murders or years and years of abject suffering? Maybe this God, this figment of the atheist’s imagination, could just eliminate the really bad stuff and allow everything else.

First off, how do you draw the line between the really bad stuff and everything else? And second, if God were to eliminate SOME evil by intervening in human free will, then He would have to eliminate ALL evil (which gets back to the free will issue above).

God would have to eliminate even relatively benign evils like gossip, bad thoughts, forgetting to cover your mouth when you cough, etc.

If God were to draw an arbitrary line and allow some evil but eliminate others, isn’t that itself evil? Why prevent evil by divine fiat for some but not all? This solution is also evil.

Moreover, it would be a divine sort of discrimination. God would be treating some humans better than others by eliminating the suffering of some but not of all. All things being equal, treating people differently on purpose without a valid reason (and arbitrarily drawing a line between “unacceptable” and “acceptable” evil is certainly not valid) is discrimination, which is evil.

I suppose the ultimate solution would be for God to just snuff us all out. That’s one sure way to eliminate evil! Do I need to explain why this, also, is itself evil?

When you examine every possible solution put forth by atheists to the problem of evil, they are all themselves evil. Our only alternative is to seek explanations of why evil exists and how it is compatible with a loving and all-powerful God.

Your time spent on atheism accents of God's existence is without merit because they are red hearings.
If atheists have all the knowledge in the world then perhaps a basis for their belief system could be established.
However, since they only possess a ...oh...1/1,000,000,000,000, ...estimated...of 1% of knowledge in the world how can anyone give them credibility?
With that being scientific fact...what is your point?

 

[Evmur]

It's my belief, and I don't know for sure, but we are ultimately sanctified when we are in God's kingdom, and given such knowledge and understanding that we will no longer want to sin.

Another way of seeing it: those who choose to be with God will choose only to want to do good, to erase our sinful natures that lead us into temptation. To the extent this detracts from free will, it's a voluntary choice, just like binding oneself to another in a contract.

These are nice thoughts but Jesus says "you have not chosen Me but I have chosen you"

Isaiah said we have turned every one to his own way, we hid our faces from Him, He is despised and rejected of men and we esteemed Him not.

Come on let's be honest, when we saw Jesus hanging by nails on the cross we didn't choose that, even folks who have been saved a long time don't like to talk too much about the cross, it is my glory, I boast about it for it is God's way and the way to Him ... but we did not choose it, even Peter who was the best of us when Jesus foretold it said "God forbid this should happen to you"

At the cross God provided a once for all salvation, the moment we believe we are saved [isn't that how it was in the bible?] if we wait till we die to be perfect and attain to salvation we must be forever lost.

 

[KrisWampler]

These are nice thoughts but Jesus says "you have not chosen Me but I have chosen you"

Isaiah said we have turned every one to his own way, we hid our faces from Him, He is despised and rejected of men and we esteemed Him not.

Come on let's be honest, when we saw Jesus hanging by nails on the cross we didn't choose that, even folks who have been saved a long time don't like to talk too much about the cross, it is my glory, I boast about it for it is God's way and the way to Him ... but we did not choose it, even Peter who was the best of us when Jesus foretold it said "God forbid this should happen to you"

At the cross God provided a once for all salvation, the moment we believe we are saved [isn't that how it was in the bible?] if we wait till we die to be perfect and attain to salvation we must be forever lost.

I don’t disagree but I’m not sure what that has to do with what I said. You don’t believe in sanctification?