Eternal security? or loss of salvation? what does the bible really say on these two subjects!

[Wansvic]

Peter wasn't even preaching to Cornelius actually. He was not expecting God to save Gentiles during that time since national Israel has not accepted their Messiah yet. That was why he never gave any call to Cornelius to "repent and be baptized".

He was just giving Cornelius a summary of what he has been doing with the Jews.

Take a look at the scriptures below. God sent an angel to Cornelius telling him to seek out Peter. Peter would tell Cornelius how to be saved:

Acts 11:13-17
"And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. (The Jews received the Holy Ghost first as well)
Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?"


Peter spoke the message, God filled the group, therefore Peter's statement above about not withstanding God had to do with offering to water baptize them in Jesus' name. (See below)


Acts 10:47-48
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.


Because Cornelius loved and feared the Lord, He actually sent an angel to tell Cornelius how to be saved. Loving, fearing, giving alms, and praying to God always would not gain him entrance into heaven. God sent Peter with the NT message of salvation.

Acts 10:1-4
There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Paul explaining the war he has inside between the spirit and the flesh that we all have dealt with and are continually dealing with.

What does that have to do with what I said?

Paul is not saying that he loses the Holy Spirit within him. Eph 1:14, The Holy Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession.

 

[Sipsey]

Now you are correct, under the gospel of grace, everyone is saved individually, Jews and Gentiles.

But under the gospel of the kingdom, it was a gospel for National Israel. Israel always rise and fall as their leaders do.

To clarify for me, are you saying there was no grace involved in the gospel of the kingdom? That it was the Law and obedience that determined individual salvation?

 

[Guojing]

To clarify for me, are you saying there was no grace involved in the gospel of the kingdom? That it was the Law and obedience that determined individual salvation?

Salvation is always by grace thru faith.

The good news that the Son of God is finally sent to the flesh to Israel.

Thru God's grace he came.

Israel needed to respond in faith to that grace, which is repent and be baptized. That is where obedience came in.

If they respond in faith, Jesus as the Son of God would usher Israel into their promised kingdom.

 

[Guojing]

Take a look at the scriptures below. God sent an angel to Cornelius telling him to seek out Peter. Peter would tell Cornelius how to be saved:

Acts 11:13-17
"And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. (The Jews received the Holy Ghost first as well)
Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?"


Peter spoke the message, God filled the group, therefore Peter's statement above about not withstanding God had to do with offering to water baptize them in Jesus' name. (See below)


Acts 10:47-48
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.


Because Cornelius loved and feared the Lord, He actually sent an angel to tell Cornelius how to be saved. Loving, fearing, giving alms, and praying to God always would not gain him entrance into heaven. God sent Peter with the NT message of salvation.

Acts 10:1-4
There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.

He already told Cornelius it was against the law for a Jew to associate with a Gentile.

 

[Wansvic]

He already told Cornelius it was against the law for a Jew to associate with a Gentile.

You are missing the point entirely. Don't know if it is intentional or not. Doesn't really matter. As they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. I've salted the oats the rest is up to you. Have a nice day.

 

[Guojing]

You are missing the point entirely. Don't know if it is intentional or not. Doesn't really matter. As they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. I've salted the oats the rest is up to you. Have a nice day.

No, I am telling you that you are reading "into Scripture" there. Under the gospel of the kingdom, all the Jews must continue to keep the Law.

That was why Jesus told the 12 not to preach that gospel to the Gentiles in Matthew 10:5.

I repeat again, Peter was not actually trying to preach to Cornelius, he doesn't even know why he was in the house of a Gentile.

 

[DorothyMae]

This is PURELY a question of faith.


If you believe there are conditions of salvation that YOU have met then you must believe if you stop meeting them then salvation must be able to be lost.

Is there a christian that thinks there are absolutely no conditions like repentance or believing to be saved?

If you believe that Christ has met all the conditions of Salvation and has GIVEN this to you as His Gift then you cannot believe that Salvation can be lost.

Is this something anyone a thallus believes? You’re lucky or your not and you need to do nothing not even believe??

The scripture that you read will re-enforce the faith that you already have. You will read it and understand it a certain way.

This is true for most, I admit. But there are a few truth seekers who actually search the scriptures to see if what they’re taught is true. So the above is not true if everyone for sure.

So really, your view of Salvation just shows other people what your faith is and who it is in.

I've done studies too. But what I can't do is give someone else MY Faith.

If course it only matters what He thinks, nut what we chose to believe.

 

[Grandpa]

Is there a christian that thinks there are absolutely no conditions like repentance or believing to be saved?

There are lots of conditions to be saved.

But people can't meet any of them.

Which is the WHOLE reason for the Lord Jesus Christ. To do what we can't do in order to bring us in as Gods People.

 

[Wansvic]

I repeat again, Peter was not actually trying to preach to Cornelius, he doesn't even know why he was in the house of a Gentile.

It makes no difference whether Peter did or did not understand initially why he was sent to the Gentiles. What does matter is it is clear that God sent him. Upon seeing the Holy Ghost fall on Gentiles as on the Jews in the beginning, Peter gives the same command. He commands the Gentiles to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus as well.

"Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. " Acts 10:47-48


Acts 11:13-17
"And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. (The Jews received the Holy Ghost first as well)
Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?"

 

[Wansvic]

What I believe many fail to realize is that obedience to Peter's instructions given to the Jewish people FIRST are the components that result in one's spiritual rebirth. I know many disagree, however, one need only consider the parallel seen in the natural birth process created by God.

It's all about a REBIRTH. The natural birthing process requires two things. Breaking forth from water and receiving an infiltration of air.

The word states that man is without excuse because he can look at the natural creation and see spiritual truth.

 

[Guojing]

It makes no difference whether Peter did or did not understand initially why he was sent to the Gentiles. What does matter is it is clear that God sent him. Upon seeing the Holy Ghost fall on Gentiles as on the Jews in the beginning, Peter gives the same command. He commands the Gentiles to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus as well.

"Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. " Acts 10:47-48


Acts 11:13-17
"And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. (The Jews received the Holy Ghost first as well)
Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?"

It is making no difference to you because you want to hold on to your doctrine, that water baptism is a requirement for salvation.

Thus, you are unable to read the account literally.

 

[DorothyMae]

There are lots of conditions to be saved.

But people can't meet any of them.

Which is the WHOLE reason for the Lord Jesus Christ. To do what we can't do in order to bring us in as Gods People.

Of course we can. Why do you think people cannot repent of their deeds? There are atheists who repent of things they have done and do not do them again. That is what repentance is. Why do you think that people cannot be deeply sorry for their deeds knowing that they are wrong and never do them again. There are drug addicts who recover and never go back. There are alcoholics who stop drinking and never go back. I can go on and on naming sins people do, later deeply regret and do not go back and do them which is what repentance is. They are not even saved. Jesus did not ask us to do something we cannot at all do.

 

[Sipsey]

Of course we can. Why do you think people cannot repent of their deeds? There are atheists who repent of things they have done and do not do them again. That is what repentance is. Why do you think that people cannot be deeply sorry for their deeds knowing that they are wrong and never do them again. There are drug addicts who recover and never go back. There are alcoholics who stop drinking and never go back. I can go on and on naming sins people do, later deeply regret and do not go back and do them which is what repentance is. They are not even saved. Jesus did not ask us to do something we cannot at all do.

Acting in a repentant manner is a good thing, but in the context of the eternal life Jesus speaks of is something a little different. Even Judas repented of his deed concerning his betrayal.

Judas’s remorse was not repentance of sin, as the King James version suggests. Matthew did not use metanoeo, which means a genuine change of mind and will, but metamelomai, which merely connotes regret or sorrow. He did not experience spiritual penitence but only emotional remorse.

As you say, even an atheist can lead a very moral life and is to be commended. The distinction between morality and holiness is one of motivation, why we act or live as we do. No one can act or be moral enough to have peace with God. Unless God motivates and empowers us, we can only be Good according to human standards, and that is the crux of the issue, the standard one uses to define goodness, mans or God’s.

 

[DorothyMae]

Acting in a repentant manner is a good thing, but in the context of the eternal life Jesus speaks of is something a little different. Even Judas repented of his deed concerning his betrayal.

Judas wasn’t sorry enough to ask for forgiveness. Some atheist don’t merely “act” in a repentance manner but truly are repentant.

Judas’s remorse was not repentance of sin, as the King James version suggests. Matthew did not use metanoeo, which means a genuine change of mind and will, but metamelomai, which merely connotes regret or sorrow. He did not experience spiritual penitence but only emotional remorse.

Just cause Judas didn’t repent doesn’t mean no one can.

As you say, even an atheist can lead a very moral life and is to be commended. The distinction between morality and holiness is one of motivation, why we act or live as we do. No one can act or be moral enough to have peace with God. Unless God motivates and empowers us, we can only be Good according to human standards, and that is the crux of the issue, the standard one uses to define goodness, mans or God’s.

Gods goodness is not that different. Jesus said giving a cup of cold water is recognized by God as good. It’s not that different.

No one is saying who leads a moral life. The theology that denies atheists the ability to
repent is proven false by repentance atheists. Repenting is NOT leading a moral life.

 

[Grandpa]

Of course we can. Why do you think people cannot repent of their deeds? There are atheists who repent of things they have done and do not do them again. That is what repentance is. Why do you think that people cannot be deeply sorry for their deeds knowing that they are wrong and never do them again. There are drug addicts who recover and never go back. There are alcoholics who stop drinking and never go back. I can go on and on naming sins people do, later deeply regret and do not go back and do them which is what repentance is. They are not even saved. Jesus did not ask us to do something we cannot at all do.

Yes, He absolutely did.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Its not enough to "repent" of a few deeds you feel bad about. If your work is what is going to satisfy the conditions for Salvation then PERFECTION is the bar that is set.

Good luck...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Of course we can. Why do you think people cannot repent of their deeds? There are atheists who repent of things they have done and do not do them again. That is what repentance is. Why do you think that people cannot be deeply sorry for their deeds knowing that they are wrong and never do them again. There are drug addicts who recover and never go back. There are alcoholics who stop drinking and never go back. I can go on and on naming sins people do, later deeply regret and do not go back and do them which is what repentance is. They are not even saved. Jesus did not ask us to do something we cannot at all do.

Will this is true

One would have to stop doing every sin, and live sinless lives. And even then, According to the law they would be cursed. Because they have failed to keep the acquirement of the law. As paul said, for ALL have sinned and fall short.

All the repenting of sin in the world will not save us.. Nor is this type of repentance what God talks about when he says repent and come to him.. He is talkin gabout our attitude toward him, Our belief about self. and Receiving his grace gift.. Which of our old nature we would never do.. That needs to be repented of before we can even begin to be led by Christ to have faith.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Acting in a repentant manner is a good thing, but in the context of the eternal life Jesus speaks of is something a little different. Even Judas repented of his deed concerning his betrayal.

Judas’s remorse was not repentance of sin, as the King James version suggests. Matthew did not use metanoeo, which means a genuine change of mind and will, but metamelomai, which merely connotes regret or sorrow. He did not experience spiritual penitence but only emotional remorse.

As you say, even an atheist can lead a very moral life and is to be commended. The distinction between morality and holiness is one of motivation, why we act or live as we do. No one can act or be moral enough to have peace with God. Unless God motivates and empowers us, we can only be Good according to human standards, and that is the crux of the issue, the standard one uses to define goodness, mans or God’s.

Amen, I think it was paul who said the gentiles who do not have the law By nature do those things in the law. Because it is written in our hearts.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Judas wasn’t sorry enough to ask for forgiveness. Some atheist don’t merely “act” in a repentance manner but truly are repentant.
Just cause Judas didn’t repent doesn’t mean no one can.
Gods goodness is not that different. Jesus said giving a cup of cold water is recognized by God as good. It’s not that different.

No one is saying who leads a moral life. The theology that denies atheists the ability to
repent is proven false by repentance atheists. Repenting is NOT leading a moral life.

Remember, Jesus called Judas a non believer and a devil. (john 6)

 

[mailmandan]

Yes, He absolutely did.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Its not enough to "repent" of a few deeds you feel bad about. If your work is what is going to satisfy the conditions for Salvation then PERFECTION is the bar that is set.

Good luck...

I often hear people who promote "sinless perfection" quote Matthew 5:48 and imply that Jesus isn't going to ask us to do something that we cannot do. I also hear people who promote "sinless perfection" also quote John 8:11, in which Jesus told the woman caught in adultery to "go and sin no more." Jesus was telling the woman to go and leave her life of sin, namely, she had been practicing adultery. Also, Jesus cannot compromise his perfect holy standard, so of course He is not going to say, "go and just sin a little bit." PERFECTION is where the Lord's bar is set and NONE of us have cleared that bar. (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:10-12; 23)