Eternal Hell, Annihilationism, or Universalism?

GdaxBbb · Mar 12, 2020

"THE FIRST 500 YEARS: In the first five centuries there were six known theological schools. Four of them taught that all men would EVENTUALLY be rescued from Hell: these being the theological schools at Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea and Edessa/Nisbis. One school, Ephesus, taught Annihilationism (that sinners are totally incinerated into nothingness in Hell). Only one theological school, Rome/Carthage taught eternal punishment. Source: The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, Universalism entry, p. 96, Baker Book House."

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/richa...ly-church-did-not-believe-hell-lasts-forever/
https://medium.com/@BrazenChurch/ho...-torment-invaded-church-doctrine-7610e6b70815

GdaxBbb · Mar 12, 2020

"Aristotle supports Barclay on the meaning of “kolasis.” The only word in the Gospels for “punishment” with regard to God punishing evildoers is “kolasis,” which according to Aristotle, who knew Greek word meanings better than anybody who ever walked the planet, said that “kolasis” is the kind of punishment which “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer,” which means it is for the betterment or improvement of the person being punished. This is contrasted with “timoria,” which Aristotle said is the kind of punishment which is “inflicted in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” (Rhet. 1369b13)."

Kolasis (Punishment)
Strong's Concordance

kolasis: correction

Original Word: κόλασις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: kolasis
Phonetic Spelling: (kol'-as-is)
Definition: correction
Usage: chastisement, punishment, torment, perhaps with the idea of deprivation.

https://biblehub.com/greek/2851.htm

GdaxBbb · Mar 12, 2020

The Patheos article is mind boggling couldn't even get through it all. I'm also starting to notice a pattern about the eternal hell arguments and the other positions. The hell arguments from whatever writers I have found are little blurbs, some counter points and well that's what it says you don't like it too bad. Whereas I've come across arguments for Universalism and Annihilationism, even lengthier then that Patheos article, that encompass church history, and the whole bible in making their point.

Some of the points about time and space are transcendent, I remember recently watching a scientific show, can't comment if it's scientific fact or theory, but it mentioned that the universe ends with basically in nothingness like all matter gets sucked into a black hole. It made me think of passages about how god is outside of time and space, that in the end or new beginning we transcendent his physical universe where we currently indwell and he takes us with him to where he is, outside of the 3D universe.

Anyway so much more reading to do.

Redleghunter · Mar 12, 2020

GdaxBbb said:

I don’t think this is accurate. There were a lot of church fathers and I only know of Origen who was clear on his views of universalism.

What others were you thinking of?

GdaxBbb · Mar 12, 2020

Redleghunter said:

Hey, I posted two links in replies above read those, and also there is this answer that lists views of early church fathers, this seems to be more split, but it seems if you research the major schools of thought in the day they were heavy universalism (apokatastasis - god reconciling all of creation). You'll have to research each person in depth as the person answering seems to list views generally and not their final view.

https://christianity.stackexchange....alism-the-majority-belief-of-the-early-church

JeremiahsCup · Mar 12, 2020

Some think they will escape the eternal torment of the lake of fire by universalism. What they forget is that, despite some universal truths being that we all live in the same corrupt universe, the earth, the heavens, and the hell all get destroyed by fire.

Some think they will escape the eternal torment of the lake of fire by annhilationism. What they forget is that, despite there being some truth that the wicked will destroyed, they will not just cease to exist, they will be cast into the darkness and fire eternally where their worm does not die to face the fiery eternal condemnation of their wickedness.

Understandably, some are dismayed, which is why they cleave to these doctrines of men that try to make the word of God to no effect. But it's okay to be afraid of the hellfire, we deserve the lake of fire for we are all corrupted, so it is a normal reaction to be in denial about it. Yet, we may be saved by the mercy of God, and with the fear of the eternal burning punishment of the Just God, and a great hatred for the wickedness, many may be saved.

An interesting quote in Jude I was reading earlier reminded me of this topic. While sometimes the gentler messaging is good for some people, the preaching of the truth about the eternal hellfire that awaits the wicked is also good for some types of people too. Both are effectual approaches and worth studying.

Jude 1:21-23

21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:

23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

garee · Mar 12, 2020

GdaxBbb said:

The fire that the letter of the law "death" and the suffering called "hell the' is tossed in a consuming fire. The moment it is cast in on the last day it is destroyed and will never rise and condemn by corrupted (suffering hell) another entire creation.

So whoever did not receive a new born again they will not rise of the last day and receive a new body.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it

GdaxBbb · Mar 13, 2020

"Where their worm dieth not, and their fire is not quenched"

http://rethinkinghell.com/2012/11/2...ed-annihilation-and-mark-948-part-2/#comments

Kolistus · Mar 13, 2020

Matthew 25:46 the same word is used for eternal life and eternal punishment. This verse destroys universalism.

GdaxBbb · Mar 13, 2020

Kolistus said:

Weak argument. The same word can have two different meanings when applied to two different things. Just like Lord means something different when applied to God, or when applied to a human.

Or when we use the word forever, "Ohh man it took forever to get here, did it really?" The same when applied to hell it will feel like FOREVER, "Man I was there forever!"

"The Greek word for punishment is ‘kolasis,’ which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. I think it is true to say that in all Greek secular literature ‘kolasis’ is never used of anything but ‘remedial punishment.’ The word for ‘eternal’ is aionios. It means more than everlasting, for Plato – who may have invented the word – plainly says that a thing may be everlasting and still not be aionios. The simplest way to put it is that aionios cannot be used properly of anyone but God; it is the word uniquely, as Plato saw it, of God. Eternal punishment is then literally that kind of remedial punishment which it befits God to give and which only God can give.”

"The Rotterham Emphasized Bible translates “kolasis aionios” in Matthew 25:46 as “age abiding correction.”

Young’s Literal Translation translates “kolasis aionios” in Matthew 25:46 as “punishment age.”

The Concordant Literal Translation translates “kolasis aionios” in Matthew 25:46 as “chastening eonian,” or “chastening age” in other words. Our English word “eon” derives from the Greek word “aionios.” Eon, as we use the word, speaks of ages or cycles of indeterminate amounts of time."

Even Strong's has these same very definitions for both punishment and aionios:
aiónios: agelong(applied to things / humans), eternal (applied to God)
kolasis: correction

eternal never-ending correction becomes an oxymoron. Not that I'm arguing for Universalism, it could very well be total destruction for the wicked at the end as ceasing to exist, but the verses you picked the argument against eternal conscious suffering.

garee · Mar 13, 2020

GdaxBbb said:

Yes quench must be defined properly.

TheIndianGirl · Mar 14, 2020

I have not researched too much into heaven versus hell but I do not believe all the people who do not know Christ are going to hell. Before the Europeans got to the Americas, no one heard of Christ. This is hundreds and hundreds of years worth of people.
Does God love them?
Are they all in eternal torment?

A lot of people today are still banned from reading the Bible (North Korea, a lot of the Muslim countries, etc.) and have not had a good opportunity to hear/understand the Gospel. I also do not believe non-believers are held accountable for their afterlife after hearing a 30 second elevator pitch Gospel. Their interest might be piqued but they may still have a long journey to know Christ (for example, I was always intrigued and pulled towards Christ during my middle school and high school years but I would say I came to "know" Christ when I was in college and went to campus church. Also only then did I finally fully grasp the resurrection).

I see some support here that children go to heaven. What about the mentally handicapped?

Was the Good Samaritan saved?

A lot of atheists/agnostics want to believe in Jesus, but they just can't. I know an agnostic who is married a devout Christian, in his 70s, but he is still a non-believer. He has too many unanswered questions. I think God will be merciful to the "want to, but just can't" category.

I do believe there is a Hell, but because we have an all-loving God, the answer of who goes to hell is not cut and dry.

GdaxBbb · Mar 14, 2020

TheIndianGirl said:

Yeah a lot of these arguments are not against hell itself but it’s duration and purpose and lastly what happens at the end of the duration.

There is 0 logical reconciliation with God is loving and just and torturing people consciously forever and ever.

He showed us what true love was, coming here and dying for all.

Arguing that somehow enternal torture is loving and just is beyond his revealed nature even through nature and the natural universe, as some would argue we don’t understand what love and justice is from Gods point of view.

But even throwing away all the logical arguments, even the biblical argument seems pretty weak when you take all of the scriptures and combine them together, not to mention the study of the actual words.

I don’t want to fathom how many people like that agnostic person have been led to hell because of eternal hell doctrines being preached like Jesus salvation when the answer has never been cut and dry throughout all of Christendom.

It reminds me of some of the preachers of no alcohol while Jesus was turning water into Wine with arguments of it was just grape juice, how can you get drunk from grape juice? A sugar high?

It seems like the best time to accept Christ would be now as you get an easy first class ticket to heaven, as opposed taking a detour to hell, but maybe that detour is so intense that majority immediately correct course.

I’m still haven’t thrown my towel either way eternal punishment can still be true even in contradiction of all logic, but everyday researching it the argument for it becomes weaker and weaker almost to the point of where people resort to the famous we don’t understand god that’s just how it is accept it tough cookies.

Which from my limited experience shows it’s infallibility, I’ve come to the conclusion that truth from the Bible always lines up and makes sense as a whole from researching other things in the past. Both logically through the natural world and biblically.

garee · Mar 14, 2020

GdaxBbb said:

Good points.

Just from the standpoint of mercy alone. God is not a God of eternal vengeance with suffering.

We know God is subject to his own laws in that way .. Mercy triumphs over judgement. It ends when a person takes his last breath his body returns to the lifeless spiritless clay it was formed from , if a person has not received a new born again spirit they simply like death the letter of the law ....will not rise and receive the incorruptible . neither male nor female, jew nor gentile

James 2:12-14 King James Version (KJV) So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment. What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Mercy does not triumph with and not above judgment. That would be turning things upside down. Giving a person a false hope as if the work of faith or labor of love came from us .We cannot save ourselves and shame others to suffer without end for not having enough intelligence.

And remember in our new bodies the former things like the letter of the law will not be remember or ever come to mind for ever and ever.

On the last day. His last act of mercy will be to cast death (the letter of the law) along with the living suffering of hell into the fireside judgement of God .Never to rise and condemn a whole creation through corruption. . a living suffering called hell.

Redleghunter · Mar 17, 2020

GdaxBbb said:

Patheos isn’t a source. I saw the usual clipped quotes out of context. Sure Origen was on board but his views on the subject were deemed heterodox.

Now this is a scholarly source.

https://www.firstthings.com/article/2019/12/opiate-of-the-theologians

It seems the modern and post modern universalist view relies heavily on the root word fallacy to pass off their views.

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/word-study-fallacies/

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/grammatical-fallacies/

https://dradney.wordpress.com/2010/04/22/word-study-fallacies-2/

GdaxBbb · Mar 17, 2020

Redleghunter said:

Actually they don’t rely on any fallacies what you posted makes their case stronger.....

“Or to put it in laymen’s terms, the same writer does not always use the same word in the same way. At some level this is obvious, but it is good to be reminded of it.”

How eternal could mean everlasting for god, and an indeterminate amount of time for something else.

The actual word had a meaning of limited period of time, and could rarely only on one occasion be used to mean unlimited only when speaking about god.

They took the root word and studied how the expression was used during that time period, they didn’t take the literal Greek, as that’s common sense in pretty much every language yet alone Greek.

Not to mention their words are captured in strong’s with the main meanings being exactly the same, If you care about “scholarly” which seems like an excuse for dismissing their points of views.

If those articles did anything they showed at least the older English translations didn’t understand the differences in words meanings and had a bunch of those fallacies, but I wouldn’t blame them not having the information at their finger tips.

And nobody was using it as a source just as a link to the wider article. Feel free to post scholarly or non scholarly articles that refutes EACH of his points with the underlying sub arguments.

Sackcloth-N-Ashes · Mar 17, 2020

TheIndianGirl said:

Is there another way to heaven than other than through the Christ, my friend?

Jackson123 · Mar 17, 2020

GdaxBbb said:

Reading most recently that majority of the early church fathers were split down the middle between Eternal Hell or Universalism, and some for Annihilationism.

The Unversalism / Annihilationism argument is basically forever and ever / everlasting being mis categorized in the greek as meaning of Ages of Ages, a temporary time period for both words, and no concept of Eternal Hell ever mentioned in the OT.

My own logical reasoning has been.

1. God needs nothing
2. He knows everything / the future / pre-knowledge
3. He is loving and just
4. The concept of Eternal Conscious Hell is non existent in the OT, just destruction / unconsciousness / death.

Yet not needing anything, knowing majority of his creation would go to everlasting hell, he decided to create it anyway to have fellowship with a few which he never really needed, somehow based out of pure love? Even a completely fallen broken person wouldn't make a decision especially based on pre-knowledge, knowing even one of your children would go to eternal punishment. Majority would choose to forgo all of creation, especially if they have no need for it....

Lastly, how do we reconcile Eternal Hell with countless deaths of innocent children? And sorry the made up doctrine of the "Age of Accountability" doesn't suffice. Nor can we reconcile OT passages of complete and total genocide of other peoples, just because they were born on the wrong side of the border, lineage....

Annihilationism fits with the verses about hell being thrown in the lake of fire, but even then still seems a bit unjust unloving, basically god created a bunch of people knowing majority of them would suffer on this earth, and then temporarily in hell hundreds thousands of years so a few can be saved. Then it's ok because I will return them to a state of non existence still seems like cruel punishment, but palatable logically.

Universalism, everyone gets saved at the end. No it doesn't make preaching the gospel useless. It's you either want a first class ticket to your destination with 0 delays to heaven, or do you want to get lost and take the long horrendous way of maybe hundreds, thousands of years in hell, until you are finally refined and workout your issues to accept Jesus? Logically speaking the most in line with Gods nature of ultimate love and sacrifice, where even Satan himself reconciles with God through his ultimate grace and love.

Eternal Hell, I guess eternal hell can also make sense logical sense with God's nature with an aspect of Annihilationism, as in physically their bodies are tormented forever, but their consciousness is destroyed.

Has anybody researched the three positions in depth? By this I mean actually researched all 3 positions and came to a conclusion, not long held beliefs and providing the typical bible verses to support those beliefs in either of the 3.

Jackson123 · Mar 17, 2020

Bible say Hell is eternal, we as human do not know complete knowledge of how God love.

Say people die in suffering from cancer, is that Prof God do not love?

In the same maner hell do not Prof God not love.

GdaxBbb · Mar 17, 2020

Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:

Why do people try to reply with these lit

Jackson123 said:

The only logical reasoning if saying god loves through suffering and cancer is cancer and physical life is temporary so if even you suffer your whole life for 80 years, assuming you go to heaven then it doesn’t even matter.

But to say suffering for all eternity that’s a hard mountain to climb how your going to prove love.

God came here and suffered for others he didn’t come and make others suffer.

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