Ephesians 4:11-16

[mustaphadrink]

Ephesians 4:11-16 says that there are five ministries that Jesus set in the churches which are to remain in the churches until the end of time. Why do some people say that apostles and prophets are no longer relevant or legitimate functions or ministries in churches today?

In my experience, it is due to the teaching of the denomination that they belong to. I spent several years involved in the Brethren movement. I went to their Bible College. I have great admiration for them because they did in most areas do what the scripture says, not what the denomination says. They were very strong on leadership having a plurality of Elders, not a pastor, and all-male leadership.

Prior to this, I was involved in a Baptist church that was Baptist in name only in the UK so they got to me first and had my theology worked out on this before going to College, so their teaching on this went through to the keeper.

After college, I joined up with a charismatic Brethren church that was started by an ex-Brethren Elder. They were full on to the ministries and ministry gifts so I felt at home. Since being in that church, I have never gone back to any other teaching because it demonstrated the reality of scripture.

 

[mustaphadrink]

My post timed out so to add to it at the same time as I had the prophesies, I went to university and trained to be a teacher in the secular school system so I was teaching by day and teaching weerknights and weekends in the church.

 

[wattie]

1 Corinthians 13 is a passage that doesn't stand alone in support of the cessation of the sign gifts of the Holy Spirit, but there are key points in the passage that link the perfect to something that isn't about Jesus. For example-- the perfect is a completion of the gift of knowledge, tongues and prophecy.. the perfect is these things completed. Those were in part.. what ever is perfect.. completes these things.

The mirror mentioned in 1 Corinthians 13-- God's Word through the bible.. refers to itself as a mirror, and does reveal who we are.. 'face to face'

The other point is, the early church fathers-- were not necessarily taking the bible 'as is' .. they weren't all completely bible believing. Remember that it didn't take long for these things to happen:

* baptism of adults only, after salvation got changed to include baptising babies -- pedobaptism
* a bishop having pastorage over one congregation.. got changed to having multiple congregations under one bishop.. and then adding bishops over whole areas.. and then eventually adding one bishop over an entire denomination.
* the ordinances in a church used to serve God after salvation got added to with other rituals borrowed from pagan religions-- and then became part of earning eternal life.
* saints became elevated in status beyond what they were and with the likes of Roman Catholicism started to be prayed to.

Maybe have a look at scholars who have also reasoned the cessation of the sign gifts ceasing compare that to what those church fathers were writing and see who is taking the bible as is.

 

[Aaron56]

I grew up in Columbus (my dad graduated from OSU). I'm now in Iowa. Can we start a private conversation?

Sure. I am waiting for private conversation privileges. I'll reach out when they go live.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

1 Corinthians 13 is a passage that doesn't stand alone in support of the cessation of the sign gifts of the Holy Spirit, but there are key points in the passage that link the perfect to something that isn't about Jesus. For example-- the perfect is a completion of the gift of knowledge, tongues and prophecy.. the perfect is these things completed. Those were in part.. what ever is perfect.. completes these things.

The mirror mentioned in 1 Corinthians 13-- God's Word through the bible.. refers to itself as a mirror, and does reveal who we are.. 'face to face'

The other point is, the early church fathers-- were not necessarily taking the bible 'as is' .. they weren't all completely bible believing. Remember that it didn't take long for these things to happen:

* baptism of adults only, after salvation got changed to include baptising babies -- pedobaptism
* a bishop having pastorage over one congregation.. got changed to having multiple congregations under one bishop.. and then adding bishops over whole areas.. and then eventually adding one bishop over an entire denomination.
* the ordinances in a church used to serve God after salvation got added to with other rituals borrowed from pagan religions-- and then became part of earning eternal life.
* saints became elevated in status beyond what they were and with the likes of Roman Catholicism started to be prayed to.

Maybe have a look at scholars who have also reasoned the cessation of the sign gifts ceasing compare that to what those church fathers were writing and see who is taking the bible as is.

you mean Scholars like:
Bart Denton Ehrman ATHEIST

Francesca Stavrakopoulou ATHEIST

and then the top 20 SECULAR scholars?


no thank you!

of course they would claim cessation is true, THEY ARE LITERALLY GODLESS AS IN DO NOT EVEN BELIEVE GOD IS REAL AND THE BIBLE IS JUST A MYTHICAL TALE!

 

[CS1]

Ephesians 4:11-16 says that there are five ministries that Jesus set in the churches which are to remain in the churches until the end of time. Why do some people say that apostles and prophets are no longer relevant or legitimate functions or ministries in churches today?

many do not understand the context of what is known as the five-fold ministers or the Gifts of Christ to the church called in the Greek

didōmi

Number 1. apostolos: apostle = one sent forth with orders

The title is not as important as the job one does as an apostle. they are sent out to preach the Gospel and build churches

Number 2. prophētēs : prophets= an interpreter of oracles or of other hidden things

In the context of the office of a prophet this is a gift not an office but, of men filled with the Spirit of God, who by God's authority and command in words of weight pleads the cause of God and urges salvation of men. In the religious assemblies of the Christians, they were moved by the Holy Spirit to speak, having power to instruct, comfort, encourage, rebuke, convict, and stimulate, their hearers


Number 3. euangelistēs : Evangelist= a bringer of good tidings, an evangelist. Pretty strait forward to what they do.

Number 4. poimēn : Pastor/Teacher = the presiding officer, manager, director, of any assembly: so of Christ the Head of the church Teacher is also a Pastor. Therefore, they are one and the same. Jesus was called a Shepard, but he also taught.

All the Gifts of Christ(didōmi ) are to do the following

verse 12

For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

If you claim to hold the gifting of one of the five and do not do these three, you don't have it.

All the gifts are valid today until the following happens :

Verse 13 says :

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

This is a process of sanctification and maturity as a Christian. Which is ongoing today.


That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

op: apostles and gift of prophecy? What saith The Scripture?:

"...Whether there be prophecies, tongues, knowledge, they Shall
.............................................. fail, ........... cease, .. vanish away ......................"...

citing 1Co 13:8-10 and stating ....that which is perfect is the completed Word of God. But when you run into people like that you should hear them out to see where they are coming from. Sometimes it’s a bad experience, sometimes it’s what they have been taught, sometimes it just being unlearned….. and sometimes it’s just a refusal to believe.

Whatever it is …..their assessment is inaccurate …..I am not saying I am right

Scriptures are "inaccurate"? Believing Them is a "bad experience"?

...However, "...Now Remaineth These Three, faith, hope, charity,
And The GREATEST Of These Is Charity!" Amen?

IF God's Preserved, Pure, Inspired, Infallible, And Profitable Word is NOT
"That Which Is PERFECT, And Has Come," then pray tell, what is it?

IF IT is Imperfect, then HOW can I know and trust In The Truth?
Am I Missing Something? :

Psa 138:2 "I will worship toward Thy holy temple, and
praise Thy Name for Thy Lovingkindness and for Thy Truth:
for Thou Hast Magnified Thy WORD Above All Thy Name.

Thus, I believe God, and am a cessationist....

GRACE And Peace...

 

[CS1]

I would like to see a prophet of today. See or hear or read his prophesying

just so you know, one who Prophesying doesn't make them a prophet in context to 1cor chapter 12 to 14 Prophesying is speaking under the inspiration as Preaching or proclaiming as one is anointed to do so.

 

[CS1]

op: apostles and gift of prophecy? What saith The Scripture?:

"...Whether there be prophecies, tongues, knowledge, they Shall
.............................................. fail, ........... cease, .. vanish away ......................"...

Not sure what this person is saying would like them to respond to it before I speak about it.

 

[mustaphadrink]

The other point is, the early church fathers-- were not necessarily taking the bible 'as is' .. they weren't all completely bible believing. Remember that it didn't take long for these things to happen:

The bible did not exist in the New Testament Church,

 

[Dirtman]

The bible did not exist in the New Testament Church,

They had letters and writings amd basically what we call old testament. The New Testament wasnt compiled as they are today until some time near 382 AD. This was the Catholic cannon, which included at the time also the Byzantine church as well called the Eastern Orthodox.

 

[wattie]

you mean Scholars like:
Bart Denton Ehrman ATHEIST

Francesca Stavrakopoulou ATHEIST

and then the top 20 SECULAR scholars?


no thank you!

of course they would claim cessation is true, THEY ARE LITERALLY GODLESS AS IN DO NOT EVEN BELIEVE GOD IS REAL AND THE BIBLE IS JUST A MYTHICAL TALE!

Not atheists of course !

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Not atheists of course !

how convenient!

 

[wattie]

They had letters and writings amd basically what we call old testament. The New Testament wasnt compiled as they are today until some time near 382 AD. This was the Catholic cannon, which included at the time also the Byzantine church as well called the Eastern Orthodox.

Yes, but also the Bible was complete about ad 70-100. The council that approved it as a Canon were confirming what was already authoritative

 

[wattie]

The bible did not exist in the New Testament Church,

As Dirtman wrote..it existed in letters before being a whole complete library

 

[Dirtman]

Yes, but also the Bible was complete about ad 70-100. The council that approved it as a Canon were confirming what was already authoritative

Agree. The body of scripture was complete. I love studying Bible and Church history

 

[TheLearner]

Ephesians 4:11-16 says that there are five ministries that Jesus set in the churches which are to remain in the churches until the end of time. Why do some people say that apostles and prophets are no longer relevant or legitimate functions or ministries in churches today?

Today Apostles are missionaries and prophets are pastors who leds one on the path of holiness.

 

[TheLearner]

1 John 3:2
King James Version
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Historically, this text was applied to I cor 13:8

 

[wattie]

1 John 3:2
King James Version
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Historically, this text was applied to I cor 13:8

You also have the Bible referring to itself as a mirror.. and the perfect law of liberty..so context is key here.

 

[Runningman]

1 Corinthians 13 is a passage that doesn't stand alone in support of the cessation of the sign gifts of the Holy Spirit, but there are key points in the passage that link the perfect to something that isn't about Jesus. For example-- the perfect is a completion of the gift of knowledge, tongues and prophecy.. the perfect is these things completed. Those were in part.. what ever is perfect.. completes these things.

The mirror mentioned in 1 Corinthians 13-- God's Word through the bible.. refers to itself as a mirror, and does reveal who we are.. 'face to face'

The other point is, the early church fathers-- were not necessarily taking the bible 'as is' .. they weren't all completely bible believing. Remember that it didn't take long for these things to happen:

* baptism of adults only, after salvation got changed to include baptising babies -- pedobaptism
* a bishop having pastorage over one congregation.. got changed to having multiple congregations under one bishop.. and then adding bishops over whole areas.. and then eventually adding one bishop over an entire denomination.
* the ordinances in a church used to serve God after salvation got added to with other rituals borrowed from pagan religions-- and then became part of earning eternal life.
* saints became elevated in status beyond what they were and with the likes of Roman Catholicism started to be prayed to.

Maybe have a look at scholars who have also reasoned the cessation of the sign gifts ceasing compare that to what those church fathers were writing and see who is taking the bible as is.

The Bible as-is says “Face to face” so that’s talking about looking at someone in the face. The “perfect” is a reference to God.

The spiritual gifts are in full effect and I know that from experience. Of course I am not telling someone what to believe. I’m experienced enough at this point to know that people will make sure they see whatever they want to see in the Bible