Dr Caroline Leaf 'Cleaning up Your Mental Mess' (It's a book)

[lamad]

Marilyn Hickey (WOF) and the "Big, Fat, Wallet."

"Just say to your wallet . . . "Why, you big, fat, wallet . . . you're so big and thick with money. Just pray to that wallet! Pray that God would fill it with cash!"

Yes, I am paraphrasing above, but that is, in fact, the just of her comments. So . . . how many times have men prayed to their wallets, and when they opened it . . . it was stuffed full of money? And if this is the case, that we can just speak money into our wallets, why isn't the church giving away millions? Why is there poverty in this world if you can just manufacture money with simple words alone? Foolishness.

Well, this is very simple, if you don't WANT money in your wallet, don't ever say anything to it! It will remain as it is.

 

[lamad]

lamad says: "People have a choice to believe this or ignore it."

And if you are not called of God to faith?

Free-willism doctrine is no substitute for "the root." Jacob made the "vow," but God performed it. (Genesis 28:20-21)

This false doctrine wearies me.

Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Abraham did it according to his own will.
Every here of "whosoever will?"

Luke 9:24
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

We each have a will as a part of our soul. God expects us to will according to HIS WORD. Some WON'T.

 

[lamad]

Say what?

He did not hit a bullseye!

 

[OrphanedRepublican]

Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Abraham did it according to his own will.
Every here of "whosoever will?"

Luke 9:24
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

We each have a will as a part of our soul. God expects us to will according to HIS WORD. Some WON'T.

You're missing the most important ingredient. God had determined to make Abraham the father of his multitude of people. That was already determined. That Abraham believed was of God, not Abram's own personal choice or free will.

I grew up on the doctrine of free will in Presbyterian church. I am weary of this ghastly free will doctrine. I don't need to choose my salvation in order for God to be my God. I need him to be with me, keep me in the path that I go, give me bread to eat and raiment to put on so that I come again to my father's house in peace. (Genesis 28:20-21)

If God doesn't perform that for me, all my free will and personal choice won't help me.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I don't need to choose my salvation in order for God to be my God.

Are you saying that you did not respond to the Gospel, but somehow automatically believed on Christ and repented of your sins and idols? According to Scripture everyone must either obey the Gospel or disobey the Gospel. that is a choice.

 

[SophieT]

oh goody

another WOF argument because it has been awhile

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Abraham did it according to his own will.
Every here of "whosoever will?"

Luke 9:24
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

We each have a will as a part of our soul. God expects us to will according to HIS WORD. Some WON'T.

If you read the entire Bible and keep track of every verse that supports free will along with every verse that supports the idea that the Lord is in control of all things . . . free will gets flushed down the toto. Hands down. No contest.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Well, this is very simple, if you don't WANT money in your wallet, don't ever say anything to it! It will remain as it is.

I see. So its kind of like when you bend your finger backwards and it hurts, and you tell your doctor about it, and he says, "Well . . . don't bend your finger backwards."

Pretty tough to defeat this incredible form of deep, analytical reasoning.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

He did not hit a bullseye!

Okie Doke.

 

[Guojing]

You have it backwards! "new age" stole their thunder from THE BIBLE! Word of Faith only emphasized the BIBLE and what it really taught and teaches.


Why did God change Abram's name to Abraham? Every time he said his name, he was saying "father of many nations!" Why did God tell us the great importance of meditating on the Word of God? Scripture teaches us it is in our mouth first, THEN it gets into our hearts. It is why God said in Mark 11:23, "he shall have whatsoever he says..." WOF did not created this, GOD DID. The truth is, every believer today is living according to their level of faith which is really saying, every believer is living today the words they spoke yesterday and the days before. It is a truth of scripture: we have what we say.

The truth is, nearly everything I have today I got by faith. I found a promise in the scriptures. I believed it and began speaking it until I could see it and touch it.

This is really not true either. The scriptures say "by His stripes we are healed." People have a choice to believe this or ignore it. If we are attacked by disease, we have a choice: we can FIGHT with our faith in healing scriptures, and force it to leave, or we can suffer with the disease. In truth, it is a CHOICE. In my life I have never denied the flu: I just refuse to let it get into my body. Always remember, when someone hears the word, the devil comes immediately to steal it.

When I first heard a message on divine healing by Kenneth E Hagin, I was elated: I understood I did not have to have the flu every year. So I began saying that and quoting healing scriptures. Then, supernatural things began to happen. I would suddenly be attacked by every flu symptom! I would then attack by quoting scriptures and telling the flu it had not right to my body, because I am a citizen of heaven. After a few minutes, the symptoms would leave. But then after a few more minutes, they would return. This went on several times a day for 30 days. Satan was trying to steal the word I had received so gladly. I have not had flu symptoms in many years. When I first heard of covid, I INSTANTLY said, "its not coming to my house!"

The truth is, people have a choice: they can BELIEVE the word of God, and change the world they live in, as the "hall of faith" in Hebrews tells us, or they can remain a nice Christian and never fight anything with their faith, just let anything that comes come. Abraham believed God and changed the world he was living in.

Appreciate your sharing. Reading what you have said here reminds me of my own journey from WOF churches up till this point in time.

I want to ask whether are you concerned at all that the Apostle Paul never told anyone of us, in the Body of Christ to use that favorite WOF verse Isa 53 "by His stripes we are healed."

You cannot find any guarantees of healings in whatever he taught us from Romans to Philemon. Instead, the clearest doctrine I have regarding sickness is found in Romans 8:18-25, connecting it to all the sufferings that we will have in this present world.

Do you think that it is very hard for a mid-acts dispensationalist to ever feel comfortable in a WOF church? Do you know what is mid acts dispensationalism?

I used to have this thread some years back when I discuss this issue here, if you are keen

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...ists-believe-in-cessation-of-miracles.182378/

 

[Subhumanoidal]

You have it backwards! "new age" stole their thunder from THE BIBLE! Word of Faith only emphasized the BIBLE and what it really taught and teaches.


Why did God change Abram's name to Abraham? Every time he said his name, he was saying "father of many nations!" Why did God tell us the great importance of meditating on the Word of God? Scripture teaches us it is in our mouth first, THEN it gets into our hearts. It is why God said in Mark 11:23, "he shall have whatsoever he says..." WOF did not created this, GOD DID. The truth is, every believer today is living according to their level of faith which is really saying, every believer is living today the words they spoke yesterday and the days before. It is a truth of scripture: we have what we say.

The truth is, nearly everything I have today I got by faith. I found a promise in the scriptures. I believed it and began speaking it until I could see it and touch it.

This is really not true either. The scriptures say "by His stripes we are healed." People have a choice to believe this or ignore it. If we are attacked by disease, we have a choice: we can FIGHT with our faith in healing scriptures, and force it to leave, or we can suffer with the disease. In truth, it is a CHOICE. In my life I have never denied the flu: I just refuse to let it get into my body. Always remember, when someone hears the word, the devil comes immediately to steal it.

When I first heard a message on divine healing by Kenneth E Hagin, I was elated: I understood I did not have to have the flu every year. So I began saying that and quoting healing scriptures. Then, supernatural things began to happen. I would suddenly be attacked by every flu symptom! I would then attack by quoting scriptures and telling the flu it had not right to my body, because I am a citizen of heaven. After a few minutes, the symptoms would leave. But then after a few more minutes, they would return. This went on several times a day for 30 days. Satan was trying to steal the word I had received so gladly. I have not had flu symptoms in many years. When I first heard of covid, I INSTANTLY said, "its not coming to my house!"

The truth is, people have a choice: they can BELIEVE the word of God, and change the world they live in, as the "hall of faith" in Hebrews tells us, or they can remain a nice Christian and never fight anything with their faith, just let anything that comes come. Abraham believed God and changed the world he was living in.

Read the Context of by his stripes we are healed. Context dies Not suggest physical healing.

New Living Translation
He personally carried our sins in his body on the cross so that we can be dead to sin and live for what is right. By his wounds you are healed.
But I know, Context is WoF's every. So you'll no doubt ignore it.

I did Not say covid wasn't coming into my house. And guess what, it hasn't. So you've proved nothing there. And the 3 people living here all have increased chances of catching it. Yet no WoF proclamation was uttered and we've all been fine. Try again.

Really this long ramble is pointless. I learned these fakes 20+ years ago. And I've read the bible. So nothing you can say will convince me these cult leaders are real.
If they were then the supposed millions saves in Africa, through WoF teachings, would all be millionaires and Africa would now be a rich and prosperous nation. But it's not. It's still full of poor, starving people and no false gospel has changed that. If that isn't the most compelling evidence right there then your ignorance is willful.

 

[lamad]

Read the Context of by his stripes we are healed. Context dies Not suggest physical healing.

New Living Translation
He personally carried our sins in his body on the cross so that we can be dead to sin and live for what is right. By his wounds you are healed.
But I know, Context is WoF's every. So you'll no doubt ignore it.

I did Not say covid wasn't coming into my house. And guess what, it hasn't. So you've proved nothing there. And the 3 people living here all have increased chances of catching it. Yet no WoF proclamation was uttered and we've all been fine. Try again.

Really this long ramble is pointless. I learned these fakes 20+ years ago. And I've read the bible. So nothing you can say will convince me these cult leaders are real.
If they were then the supposed millions saves in Africa, through WoF teachings, would all be millionaires and Africa would now be a rich and prosperous nation. But it's not. It's still full of poor, starving people and no false gospel has changed that. If that isn't the most compelling evidence right there then your ignorance is willful.

It's very simple: if you don't want God's healing power, then you can go to the doctor. Just keep in mind, doctor's practice medicine, but God perfected it. If a deadly disease attacks someone, often doctors fail. Jesus never fails.

Perhaps you never notice Matthew 8:17 proves the Isaiah 53 passage WAS for physical healing.

 

[lamad]

Appreciate your sharing. Reading what you have said here reminds me of my own journey from WOF churches up till this point in time.

I want to ask whether are you concerned at all that the Apostle Paul never told anyone of us, in the Body of Christ to use that favorite WOF verse Isa 53 "by His stripes we are healed."

You cannot find any guarantees of healings in whatever he taught us from Romans to Philemon. Instead, the clearest doctrine I have regarding sickness is found in Romans 8:18-25, connecting it to all the sufferings that we will have in this present world.

Do you think that it is very hard for a mid-acts dispensationalist to ever feel comfortable in a WOF church? Do you know what is mid acts dispensationalism?

I used to have this thread some years back when I discuss this issue here, if you are keen

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...ists-believe-in-cessation-of-miracles.182378/

All those that Paul got saved and eventually us today were grafted into the Jewish tree! However, I agree with you. The parenthesis that is the Gentile church of today I think start when God sent Paul to the Gentiles. And I am WOF. Did you ever really study the Hebrew words in Isaiah 53? He used the same words to carry our sickness and disease as to carry our sin. Make no mistake here, Just as Jesus carried our sins HIMSELF He also carried all sickness and disease. This is proven in Matthew 8, and then the 17th verse. It was all physical healing there.

Divine healing comes through faith, just as our salvation does. But salvation is in the realm of the spirit and is instaneous, while phisical healing is physical. Our faith must pull that healing from the realm of the spirit to the realm of the physical. "One day" faith usually is not enough. Often "one week" faith is not enough.

I have discovered that most Christians are just "to nice" to really fight. If I was attached by somethine deadly, the moment I discovered it I would jump up on a chair and shout very loudly: NO YOU DON'T, DEVIL! And I would quote healing scriptures. If the symptoms were still there the next day, I would jump on the table and shout even louder! (I am being funny!) I shout but I don't jump up on the table!

The truth is, it takes STRONG FAITH to defeat a demon sent to kill us, such as cancer. One must speak to a spirit of infirmity (like cancer) with AUTHORITY, maybe two hours a day, day after day, day after day, perhaps for a year! But you do it until the symptoms are gone and then keep on for another week or two. I know very few people that have this kind of faith. One must KNOW in their spirit that Satan has no right to attack us with disease!

 

[Guojing]

All those that Paul got saved and eventually us today were grafted into the Jewish tree! However, I agree with you. The parenthesis that is the Gentile church of today I think start when God sent Paul to the Gentiles. And I am WOF. Did you ever really study the Hebrew words in Isaiah 53? He used the same words to carry our sickness and disease as to carry our sin. Make no mistake here, Just as Jesus carried our sins HIMSELF He also carried all sickness and disease. This is proven in Matthew 8, and then the 17th verse. It was all physical healing there.

Divine healing comes through faith, just as our salvation does. But salvation is in the realm of the spirit and is instaneous, while phisical healing is physical. Our faith must pull that healing from the realm of the spirit to the realm of the physical. "One day" faith usually is not enough. Often "one week" faith is not enough.

I have discovered that most Christians are just "to nice" to really fight. If I was attached by somethine deadly, the moment I discovered it I would jump up on a chair and shout very loudly: NO YOU DON'T, DEVIL! And I would quote healing scriptures. If the symptoms were still there the next day, I would jump on the table and shout even louder! (I am being funny!) I shout but I don't jump up on the table!

The truth is, it takes STRONG FAITH to defeat a demon sent to kill us, such as cancer. One must speak to a spirit of infirmity (like cancer) with AUTHORITY, maybe two hours a day, day after day, day after day, perhaps for a year! But you do it until the symptoms are gone and then keep on for another week or two. I know very few people that have this kind of faith. One must KNOW in their spirit that Satan has no right to attack us with disease!

So do you agree with me that Paul, in Romans to Philemon, never taught us in the Body of Christ, all that you are saying in this post?

Where did you learn all this doctrine regarding healing from?

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

All those that Paul got saved and eventually us today were grafted into the Jewish tree! However, I agree with you. The parenthesis that is the Gentile church of today I think start when God sent Paul to the Gentiles. And I am WOF. Did you ever really study the Hebrew words in Isaiah 53? He used the same words to carry our sickness and disease as to carry our sin. Make no mistake here, Just as Jesus carried our sins HIMSELF He also carried all sickness and disease. This is proven in Matthew 8, and then the 17th verse. It was all physical healing there.

Divine healing comes through faith, just as our salvation does. But salvation is in the realm of the spirit and is instaneous, while phisical healing is physical. Our faith must pull that healing from the realm of the spirit to the realm of the physical. "One day" faith usually is not enough. Often "one week" faith is not enough.

I have discovered that most Christians are just "to nice" to really fight. If I was attached by somethine deadly, the moment I discovered it I would jump up on a chair and shout very loudly: NO YOU DON'T, DEVIL! And I would quote healing scriptures. If the symptoms were still there the next day, I would jump on the table and shout even louder! (I am being funny!) I shout but I don't jump up on the table!

The truth is, it takes STRONG FAITH to defeat a demon sent to kill us, such as cancer. One must speak to a spirit of infirmity (like cancer) with AUTHORITY, maybe two hours a day, day after day, day after day, perhaps for a year! But you do it until the symptoms are gone and then keep on for another week or two. I know very few people that have this kind of faith. One must KNOW in their spirit that Satan has no right to attack us with disease!

Yet in like manner these people also, relying on their dreams, defile the flesh, reject authority, and blaspheme the glorious ones. But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.” But these people blaspheme all that they do not understand, and they are destroyed by all that they, like unreasoning animals, understand instinctively.
Jude 1:8‭-‬10 ESV

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

One must KNOW in their spirit that Satan has no right to attack us with disease!

It's very simple: if you don't want God's healing power, then you can go to the doctor. Just keep in mind, doctor's practice medicine, but God perfected it. If a deadly disease attacks someone, often doctors fail. Jesus never fails.

Perhaps you never notice Matthew 8:17 proves the Isaiah 53 passage WAS for physical healing.

I wonder what happened to Paul . . . and why he was sick. What did Paul do to become sick? Did he fall away somehow?

Galatians 4:13-14 NIV - "As you know, it was because of an illness that I first preached the gospel to you, 14 and even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself."

 

[Nehemiah6]

Galatians 4:13-14 NIV - "As you know, it was because of an illness that I first preached the gospel to you, 14 and even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself."

This translation is A BLATANT MISREPRESENTATION of the truth. Here is what is written in the King James Bible: Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first. And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

"Infirmity" means disability or lack of strength and "flesh" means body. So that was a physical disability which is definitely not an illness. And by temptation, Paul means a test. This disability was a test of Paul's faith. Since Paul was constantly traveling it should be clear that he was able to do so in spite of his disability. Many believe that his eyesight was rather poor, or perhaps he had some injury which had not healed properly. Paul was beaten many times.

 

[EnglishChick]

Word of Faith is, basically, taking teachings you find in New Age (a commercial form of occult) and wrapping those teachings in a bible wrapper, using out of context scriptures to justify the teachings to Christians.
Oprah promoted the same teachings, minus the Christian wrapper, and she is well known own as a New Ager.

The "Christian" version teaches having faith in faith, rather than faith in God. That what you speak into that faith will manifest into reality. And "God", the magic genie, will grant these wishes, as that is, apparently, His main purpose in life.
The New Age version is the same, but instead of "God" they claim it's "The Universe" that answers our words. The Universe is a cosmic, non-personal, god-type entity that is more of an idea than anything else.

The Christian version goes under terms such as Word of Faith, Name it and claim it, prosperity gospel, etc...
So if you want a BMW, all you need to do is speak it into existence and God (The Universe) will hear you, and with enough belief, eventually manifest one (literally).
They also teach Christians shouldn't never get sick, and if one does show the symptoms of it, to deny it.
For example, I remember my first encounter with this teaching as a teen. A girl showed up at my youth group with a cold, when I mentioned that she was sick she cut me off, told me she wasn't sick and that she didn't claim that and that I should not mention it again.

You see these teachings mostly in charismatic oriented churches or seeker sensitive churches.

Osteen is a rich television Preacher that ignores sin and teaches people to only care about the quality of their Own life while here on earth. And he teaches visualization, a form of the above teachings and the same teaching Oprah promoted. Which would explain why she promoted him and he so freely accepted this by going on her show.

I used to be involved in Word of Faith movement and it really messed me up. I was told that if I only had faith I would get well and it was my fault that I didn't

I have tried to end my life more than once

I have complex PTSD, OCD, borderline PD, eating disorders, a form of dystonia, possible but as yet undiagnosed aspergers. I just feel like a complete failure before God because I don't have the faith to get healed and be acceptable to Him

 

[EnglishChick]

Word of Faith is, basically, taking teachings you find in New Age (a commercial form of occult) and wrapping those teachings in a bible wrapper, using out of context scriptures to justify the teachings to Christians.
Oprah promoted the same teachings, minus the Christian wrapper, and she is well known own as a New Ager.

The "Christian" version teaches having faith in faith, rather than faith in God. That what you speak into that faith will manifest into reality. And "God", the magic genie, will grant these wishes, as that is, apparently, His main purpose in life.
The New Age version is the same, but instead of "God" they claim it's "The Universe" that answers our words. The Universe is a cosmic, non-personal, god-type entity that is more of an idea than anything else.

The Christian version goes under terms such as Word of Faith, Name it and claim it, prosperity gospel, etc...
So if you want a BMW, all you need to do is speak it into existence and God (The Universe) will hear you, and with enough belief, eventually manifest one (literally).
They also teach Christians shouldn't never get sick, and if one does show the symptoms of it, to deny it.
For example, I remember my first encounter with this teaching as a teen. A girl showed up at my youth group with a cold, when I mentioned that she was sick she cut me off, told me she wasn't sick and that she didn't claim that and that I should not mention it again.

You see these teachings mostly in charismatic oriented churches or seeker sensitive churches.

Osteen is a rich television Preacher that ignores sin and teaches people to only care about the quality of their Own life while here on earth. And he teaches visualization, a form of the above teachings and the same teaching Oprah promoted. Which would explain why she promoted him and he so freely accepted this by going on her show.

yeah I relate to your experience of the cold thing. I was told that I should never confess sickness and to get well I needed to pray a bunch of prayers daily commanding the morning. They got mad at me when I struggled with that


I still bear the scars .I have found a very inclusive church now and am sticking with them. The wof types think am backsli dden. I guess I am. They also don't bother with the poor or needy. Some of these churches say if you tithe you are blessed but if you don't tithe you are cursed

I have spent my life feeling like am one big mistake and no longer want anything to do with any kind of religion that makes me feel that way again

Am living an utterly.selfish life focusing on my own healing from all the sexual physical mental abuse I grew up with and the teaching from the churches. Am sure God thinks am a failure and despises my me sometimes


I hear voices telling me im an abomination and under judgement

writing this with tears in my eyes as I just find I don't fit in with a decent Christian lifestyle

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

This translation is A BLATANT MISREPRESENTATION of the truth. Here is what is written in the King James Bible: Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first. And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

"Infirmity" means disability or lack of strength and "flesh" means body. So that was a physical disability which is definitely not an illness. And by temptation, Paul means a test. This disability was a test of Paul's faith. Since Paul was constantly traveling it should be clear that he was able to do so in spite of his disability. Many believe that his eyesight was rather poor, or perhaps he had some injury that had not healed properly. Paul was beaten many times.

Thanks for showing the differences between the two translations. Actually, the KJV and NLT are the two versions I use for best-case, immediate perspective. I actually wondered, as I was posting, if anyone would cringe over the NIV quote. lol

Anyway, I don't see much of a difference between the NIV and KJV. They're saying the same thing (to me.)

Thanks again!