Does that bother you? What about the millions before the Flood? Was God longsuffering with them until they were all destroyed? The Bible says that Noah was a preacher of righteousness. so surely he was warning them constantly. What about those who reject Christ and reject the Gospel? Are they not vessels of wrath because they choose to disobey the Gospel? God does nothing arbitrarily, and the Bible is crystal clear, that He desires the salvation of all mankind.
Does the sovereignty of God nullify the grace of God?
- Thread starter Nehemiah6
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9 I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers,[a] my kinsmen according to the flesh. 4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. 5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.”
8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.”
Isaac was chosen to serve as the son of Abraham who would be progenitor of the Messiah.
10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”
Esau was chosen to serve and honour Jacob as God's choice for progenitor of the Messiah. If Esau and his descendants honoured and respected Jacob as God's choice, they would be blessed. If he and his descendants despised and harassed Jacob, they would be cursed.
13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
Esau himself eventually learned to defer to Jacob, but his descendants refused to do so, and so God eventually destroyed the nation that came from Esau. However, because of His unchanging faithfulness to His covenants, He preserved Jacob, despite Jacob being just as rebellious as Esau.
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[b] but on God, who has mercy.
God chose to grant Moses his prayer to show mercy on rebellious Israel, but chose not to grant Moses his request to see God's glory,. However, God did choose to show him some of His glory.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
God raises up every leader for the same purpose, "that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." God will achieve this whether the leader declares God's power and attests to it by obeying God, as Cyrus did; or whether that leader refuses to attest to God's power, as Pharaoh did.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”
This interlocutor argues that if God can enforce His will whenever He wills, then no one ever resists God's will.
20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God?
The Greek says, "Surely not (menounge) , who are you, O man, the one contradicting (antapokrinomenos) God."
The interlocutor is arguing that no one can resist God's will, but scripture often rebukes people for doing just that: resisting God's will. The interlocutor is actually arguing FOR EXHAUSTIVE DETERMINISM, and Paul is denying exhaustive determinism. God says sinners are resisting God's will. It is therefore folly to argue that no one can.
Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”
The exhaustive determinist has every reason to complain that God has made him do whatever the determinist does. The exhaustive determinist is complaining, "Why are You condemning me, when no one can resist Your will?"
21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
This is similar rhetoric to Jesus' response to the servant who buried his talent because he "knew" his Master "to be a hard man, reaping where he did not sow, and gathering where he did not winnow." Paul is saying, "Under your alleged exhaustive determinism, doesn't God, the Potter, have the right to make men/vessels for whatever use he wants, whether for honorable or for menial use. IF you really "know" that "no one can resist God," and everything is exhaustively determined, you are like inert dead clay in the hands of God as a potter, and what inert lump of clay complains about what the potter chooses to make from it. The logically coherent response of an exhaustive determinist is to simply shrug his/her shoulders and accept whatever is happening in his/her life as God's work. The logically coherent response of an exhaustive determinist is Calvinism.
22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
But Paul offers an alternative to exhaustive determinism. Maybe your exhaustive determinism is a crock. What if God does in the moment want/will to show His power and destroy the vessels that appear at the moment to be destined for destruction because of their resistance to God's will. But what if He is not the One making them rebellious, and it is they who are preparing themselves for destruction by their rebellion? If they are actually preparing themselves for destruction, and yet God is not yet destroying them, God may be actually showing great patience with them, giving them time, hoping they will change their attitudes to Him, so that they start allowing Him to prepare them before the resurrection for glory, even those He is calling from both Jews and Gentiles.
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.”
8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.”
Isaac was chosen to serve as the son of Abraham who would be progenitor of the Messiah.
10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”
Esau was chosen to serve and honour Jacob as God's choice for progenitor of the Messiah. If Esau and his descendants honoured and respected Jacob as God's choice, they would be blessed. If he and his descendants despised and harassed Jacob, they would be cursed.
13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
Esau himself eventually learned to defer to Jacob, but his descendants refused to do so, and so God eventually destroyed the nation that came from Esau. However, because of His unchanging faithfulness to His covenants, He preserved Jacob, despite Jacob being just as rebellious as Esau.
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[b] but on God, who has mercy.
God chose to grant Moses his prayer to show mercy on rebellious Israel, but chose not to grant Moses his request to see God's glory,. However, God did choose to show him some of His glory.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
God raises up every leader for the same purpose, "that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." God will achieve this whether the leader declares God's power and attests to it by obeying God, as Cyrus did; or whether that leader refuses to attest to God's power, as Pharaoh did.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”
This interlocutor argues that if God can enforce His will whenever He wills, then no one ever resists God's will.
20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God?
The Greek says, "Surely not (menounge) , who are you, O man, the one contradicting (antapokrinomenos) God."
The interlocutor is arguing that no one can resist God's will, but scripture often rebukes people for doing just that: resisting God's will. The interlocutor is actually arguing FOR EXHAUSTIVE DETERMINISM, and Paul is denying exhaustive determinism. God says sinners are resisting God's will. It is therefore folly to argue that no one can.
Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”
The exhaustive determinist has every reason to complain that God has made him do whatever the determinist does. The exhaustive determinist is complaining, "Why are You condemning me, when no one can resist Your will?"
21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
This is similar rhetoric to Jesus' response to the servant who buried his talent because he "knew" his Master "to be a hard man, reaping where he did not sow, and gathering where he did not winnow." Paul is saying, "Under your alleged exhaustive determinism, doesn't God, the Potter, have the right to make men/vessels for whatever use he wants, whether for honorable or for menial use. IF you really "know" that "no one can resist God," and everything is exhaustively determined, you are like inert dead clay in the hands of God as a potter, and what inert lump of clay complains about what the potter chooses to make from it. The logically coherent response of an exhaustive determinist is to simply shrug his/her shoulders and accept whatever is happening in his/her life as God's work. The logically coherent response of an exhaustive determinist is Calvinism.
22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
But Paul offers an alternative to exhaustive determinism. Maybe your exhaustive determinism is a crock. What if God does in the moment want/will to show His power and destroy the vessels that appear at the moment to be destined for destruction because of their resistance to God's will. But what if He is not the One making them rebellious, and it is they who are preparing themselves for destruction by their rebellion? If they are actually preparing themselves for destruction, and yet God is not yet destroying them, God may be actually showing great patience with them, giving them time, hoping they will change their attitudes to Him, so that they start allowing Him to prepare them before the resurrection for glory, even those He is calling from both Jews and Gentiles.