Does Oneness theology (Modalism) teach a "sock puppet" view of God's nature?
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I think the sock puppet theory can also be said of the Trinity. There is ONE GOD, and that ONE GOD deals with humanity in 3 variations (trinity calls them people). But very much like the Oneness idealism, You cannot get to the Father unless you go through the Son. You cannot filled be with the Holy Spirit unless you first accept the Son.
I personally laugh at the trinity vs oneness argument because they both begin with GOD is ONE, and from there, all you are substituting "persons for manifestations" and each member of the persons or manifestations are fulfilling the exact same role by definition of trinity or oneness.
In my opinion, if a trinity believer makes fun of a oneness believer they are making fun of themselves. Or, if oneness believer makes fun of a trinity believer they are making fun of themselves. Both beliefs believe in the ONE GOD as the Father-Son-Holy Spirit. The only difference besides "persons vs manifestations" is Baptism. But in theory, since within Jesus is the full and complete Godhead, to Baptize in Jesus Name is to Baptize in the Father-Son-Holy Spirit!
In reality, this argument is a complete wash of foolishness not understanding they are actually believing the SAME WAY!
I personally laugh at the trinity vs oneness argument because they both begin with GOD is ONE, and from there, all you are substituting "persons for manifestations" and each member of the persons or manifestations are fulfilling the exact same role by definition of trinity or oneness.
In my opinion, if a trinity believer makes fun of a oneness believer they are making fun of themselves. Or, if oneness believer makes fun of a trinity believer they are making fun of themselves. Both beliefs believe in the ONE GOD as the Father-Son-Holy Spirit. The only difference besides "persons vs manifestations" is Baptism. But in theory, since within Jesus is the full and complete Godhead, to Baptize in Jesus Name is to Baptize in the Father-Son-Holy Spirit!
In reality, this argument is a complete wash of foolishness not understanding they are actually believing the SAME WAY!
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Here's the way I would phrase it:
There is one God in terms of being or essence, yet three distinct Persons, in terms of personhood, Father, Son, Holy Spirit. There is one "what" and three "who's.
In regards to the unity or oneness of God, he is one in terms of essence, so there is only one spirit.
Let me use a human comparison. If there was a human being like God, which there is not, there would be three distinct Persons sharing one body. The body is the essence.
God does not have a body; he is spirit. Therefore, there is only one spirit.
The Holy Spirit is a distinct Person, just like the Father and the Son.
Also, theologians prefer to use the word "distinct" rather than "separate" when discussing the three Persons. This is because the word "separate" is a spatial term, and God is not a spatial being. He created the laws of space and time, and is not constrained by the dimensions within space or time.
Some Christians have this idea that God is like a man, in that he is constrained by space and time, however this is not correct. God created all those things, therefore he is above them.
Man is created in the image of God in the sense that he is meant to reflect God's holiness and to rule over creation like God rules over all things. He is God's representative in the material realm. This does not mean that God has a body or form shaped like a man, though.
If you consider our bodies, they are meant to operate in the physical realm. For instance, we have hair so that we can keep our heads warm. We have fingers to pick up small objects. We have legs to walk around, and sexual organs to procreate. We have noses to breathe oxygen. God doesn't have these needs. He is the creator so he is not dependent upon the creation. He has no needs.
It is true, though, that Jesus has a glorified body but he is a union of God and man. He has two natures. He is God, but he is also man. And he has a human body due to the fact that he is fully man. But, he is fully God at the same time.
Jesus isn't a spirit simply enclosed with flesh. He is man by nature, as well as being God by nature.
In the OT there were theophanies and Christophanies where God appeared as a man in a body that appeared human. Jesus was more than that. His body is a real human body just like any other man. But, he has a dual nature being God as well.
The guys who believe God is like a man in this way rely on Scriptures that seem to indicate this, but they don't understand that God uses language so that we can relate to it. This is called "language of accomodation".
Consider how we talk to our babies. We don't use complicated language to explain difficult things. We use simple language and baby talk. God basically uses baby talk when communicating with the spiritually immature. He then expanded this complexity after the resurrection through men like the apostle Paul.
For example, in Genesis 8:1, it says that God remembered Noah. Well, it's obvious that God didn't have a "senior moment" and forget Noah in the Ark floating around. Scripture uses language of accomodation sometimes so that man can relate to God.
There is one God in terms of being or essence, yet three distinct Persons, in terms of personhood, Father, Son, Holy Spirit. There is one "what" and three "who's.
In regards to the unity or oneness of God, he is one in terms of essence, so there is only one spirit.
Let me use a human comparison. If there was a human being like God, which there is not, there would be three distinct Persons sharing one body. The body is the essence.
God does not have a body; he is spirit. Therefore, there is only one spirit.
The Holy Spirit is a distinct Person, just like the Father and the Son.
Also, theologians prefer to use the word "distinct" rather than "separate" when discussing the three Persons. This is because the word "separate" is a spatial term, and God is not a spatial being. He created the laws of space and time, and is not constrained by the dimensions within space or time.
Some Christians have this idea that God is like a man, in that he is constrained by space and time, however this is not correct. God created all those things, therefore he is above them.
Man is created in the image of God in the sense that he is meant to reflect God's holiness and to rule over creation like God rules over all things. He is God's representative in the material realm. This does not mean that God has a body or form shaped like a man, though.
If you consider our bodies, they are meant to operate in the physical realm. For instance, we have hair so that we can keep our heads warm. We have fingers to pick up small objects. We have legs to walk around, and sexual organs to procreate. We have noses to breathe oxygen. God doesn't have these needs. He is the creator so he is not dependent upon the creation. He has no needs.
It is true, though, that Jesus has a glorified body but he is a union of God and man. He has two natures. He is God, but he is also man. And he has a human body due to the fact that he is fully man. But, he is fully God at the same time.
Jesus isn't a spirit simply enclosed with flesh. He is man by nature, as well as being God by nature.
In the OT there were theophanies and Christophanies where God appeared as a man in a body that appeared human. Jesus was more than that. His body is a real human body just like any other man. But, he has a dual nature being God as well.
The guys who believe God is like a man in this way rely on Scriptures that seem to indicate this, but they don't understand that God uses language so that we can relate to it. This is called "language of accomodation".
Consider how we talk to our babies. We don't use complicated language to explain difficult things. We use simple language and baby talk. God basically uses baby talk when communicating with the spiritually immature. He then expanded this complexity after the resurrection through men like the apostle Paul.
For example, in Genesis 8:1, it says that God remembered Noah. Well, it's obvious that God didn't have a "senior moment" and forget Noah in the Ark floating around. Scripture uses language of accomodation sometimes so that man can relate to God.
No, this is not true.
The Trinity maintains that there is one God, in terms of being or essence, yet three Persons in terms of Personhood.
The sock puppet analogy was meant to show that in Oneness theology, there is only one Person, which is a false teaching.
You can laugh about it all you want, but the reality is that if you believe what you are saying, you are a modalist and not a Trinitarian.
In the sock puppet analogy, there is only one Person who is putting different puppets on his hand. But, he is still the same Person and there is no relational aspect. For example, my right hand doesn't have a relationship with my left hand, because they are not two distinct centers of consciousness with two distinct minds.
Therefore, modalists worship a god is not a father, and does not have a son. There can't be a Father and a Son without relationships and distinct centers of consciousness.
The different roles within the Triune God that are assumed by the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not distinct Persons. It is true that the Father elects, the Son redeems and the Holy Spirit applies this redemption. However, these are distinct roles assumed by distinct Persons.
Modalism is simply a false system that proposes some schizophrenic God who pretends to be three distinct Persons. It is not the biblical view.
God is a multi-personal being, and this is how God can be love by definition. The Triune God has been relational forever. The Trinity is actually a very deep teaching.
The Trinity maintains that there is one God, in terms of being or essence, yet three Persons in terms of Personhood.
The sock puppet analogy was meant to show that in Oneness theology, there is only one Person, which is a false teaching.
You can laugh about it all you want, but the reality is that if you believe what you are saying, you are a modalist and not a Trinitarian.
In the sock puppet analogy, there is only one Person who is putting different puppets on his hand. But, he is still the same Person and there is no relational aspect. For example, my right hand doesn't have a relationship with my left hand, because they are not two distinct centers of consciousness with two distinct minds.
Therefore, modalists worship a god is not a father, and does not have a son. There can't be a Father and a Son without relationships and distinct centers of consciousness.
The different roles within the Triune God that are assumed by the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not distinct Persons. It is true that the Father elects, the Son redeems and the Holy Spirit applies this redemption. However, these are distinct roles assumed by distinct Persons.
Modalism is simply a false system that proposes some schizophrenic God who pretends to be three distinct Persons. It is not the biblical view.
God is a multi-personal being, and this is how God can be love by definition. The Triune God has been relational forever. The Trinity is actually a very deep teaching.
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Before the incarnation, Jesus only had one nature.
Now, Jesus has two natures, being fully God and fully man.
He is the bridge between humanity and God. He is truly God and truly man.
These two natures are held together in a hypostatic union.
The exact way this works would not be possible for me to explain. I don't think anyone can fully explain it. But, we know that Jesus is just as much a man as any other man, and he is also one Person of the Triune God, YHVH.
Major errors within Christianity are related to the true humanity and true deity of Christ. Heretics tend to deny either one or the other. Both are true, and Scripture teaches both.
Jesus does have a body, as a glorified man, but God does not have a body.
Now, Jesus has two natures, being fully God and fully man.
He is the bridge between humanity and God. He is truly God and truly man.
These two natures are held together in a hypostatic union.
The exact way this works would not be possible for me to explain. I don't think anyone can fully explain it. But, we know that Jesus is just as much a man as any other man, and he is also one Person of the Triune God, YHVH.
Major errors within Christianity are related to the true humanity and true deity of Christ. Heretics tend to deny either one or the other. Both are true, and Scripture teaches both.
Jesus does have a body, as a glorified man, but God does not have a body.
The trinity is only considered deep because there is no real definition to explain it. The way most have defined it seems like it's been explained in such a way on purpose to not question it. But it actually is more on lines of CONFUSION, and my Bible claims God is not the God of Confusion with how people have distorted the trinity idealism.
And the oneness I know do believe all 3 represent a major role within the One Body of God. It is a work of unity. And honestly, it is less confusing than how people have tried to explain the trinity.
There is no doubt a TRIUNE God!
But how both the trinitarians and oneness explain Him, makes me think they are the dumbest people on Earth!
What is confusing about this statement?
The is one God yet three distinct Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?
It's pretty simple to me.
And, let me ask you this:
Are the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit distinct persons, who have real relationships?
or
Are the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit one Person, who pretends to have real relationships?
It really boils down to this.
These two are mutually exclusive.
The Scriptural data supports the Trinity doctrine.
We must then ask if Jesus Christ was truly God and truly Man.
By the way, what would you call your view? Are you Oneness? Trinitarian? Neither?
If you are neither, what would your position be called? Do you believe that Jesus Christ is truly God and truly man?
The is one God yet three distinct Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?
It's pretty simple to me.
And, let me ask you this:
Are the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit distinct persons, who have real relationships?
or
Are the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit one Person, who pretends to have real relationships?
It really boils down to this.
These two are mutually exclusive.
The Scriptural data supports the Trinity doctrine.
We must then ask if Jesus Christ was truly God and truly Man.
By the way, what would you call your view? Are you Oneness? Trinitarian? Neither?
If you are neither, what would your position be called? Do you believe that Jesus Christ is truly God and truly man?
To elaborate further, if there are not three distinct Persons within the Godhead, then this would make God a self-lover.
Scripture records that the Father loves the Son, and the Son loves the Father. How meaningful is this if the Father and Son are the same Person, only two different roles?
It makes no sense whatsoever for one Person to assume different roles, and to claim any sort of true relationship within the Godhead.
This is exactly the problem with the Oneness position, and I believe the sock-puppet analogy I use exposes the problem clearly.
If I have one sock-puppet on my right and one sock-puppet on my left hand, those two sock puppets can have no real relationship between them. This is very analogous to the Oneness teaching. There can be no real relationships where there is only one person.
Scripture records that the Father loves the Son, and the Son loves the Father. How meaningful is this if the Father and Son are the same Person, only two different roles?
It makes no sense whatsoever for one Person to assume different roles, and to claim any sort of true relationship within the Godhead.
This is exactly the problem with the Oneness position, and I believe the sock-puppet analogy I use exposes the problem clearly.
If I have one sock-puppet on my right and one sock-puppet on my left hand, those two sock puppets can have no real relationship between them. This is very analogous to the Oneness teaching. There can be no real relationships where there is only one person.
That is not confusing and it is NOT what the Bible specifically claims. That is how it has been interpreted.
But it all begins with Jesus in the Book of John.
He said, GOD is a Spirit: What we notice about this verse and statement from Christ is He ensured the Spirit was capped "S" and His statement ended with :
^
That is a hard line truth.
He then furthers with those who believe in God Worship Him in Spirit and in Truth!
Who taught you about understanding the Trinity biker? Here, I'll give you the definition of the Trinity. The doctrine of the Trinity is no an "assumption." It is the normative systematic theology of God in Christianity and is BASED on the fact that the Bible is explicit in telling us tha there is, was and forever will be only ONE God AND the fact that the Bible IDENTIFIES three (and only three) persons as God.
So yes or no biker, is Jesus Christ identified as God in Scripture? Is the Holy Spirit identified as God in Scripture? Obviously we already know the the Father is identified as God. So can you please show me just one verse that states Jesus is God? Can you show just one verse that identifies the Holy Spirit as God? This should not be hard to do since your such an "ole" hand at understanding Scripture?
Now, some others here stated correctly that God is one in nature or essence and thee in persons. This is brought out at John 10:30, read it. Secondly, we are human beings and that is our nature, human. You are not the same person as your father or mother but you are a distinct person from them. It's a universal law that all sons share the same nature as its father. Beaver fathers have other beavers and so on.
God operates in the same way. There is only one deity which is God and it is God's nature that separates Him from all that is not God. The Bible teaches that God has a Son and His name is Jesus Christ. Read John 3:16. Jesus Christ does NOT have a biological father because His Father is God. Also the mother of Jesus is Mary who is a human being. Jesus Christ is the one and only person to have two natures, one on His mothers side which is humand and one on His Fathers side which is deity. So the one person of Jesus Christ has two natures. This is not hard too understand.
Regarding "oneness" Pentecostal teaching it is not even close to the Trinity. They are "Modalist" and teach Jesus Christ is God the Father, and He is the Son and Jesus is also the person of the Holy Spirit. Jesus does not play the "role" of being the Father, Son or Holy Spirit. Is there anything else you want to know? I would be happy to address ANY question you might have.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
So yes or no biker, is Jesus Christ identified as God in Scripture? Is the Holy Spirit identified as God in Scripture? Obviously we already know the the Father is identified as God. So can you please show me just one verse that states Jesus is God? Can you show just one verse that identifies the Holy Spirit as God? This should not be hard to do since your such an "ole" hand at understanding Scripture?
Now, some others here stated correctly that God is one in nature or essence and thee in persons. This is brought out at John 10:30, read it. Secondly, we are human beings and that is our nature, human. You are not the same person as your father or mother but you are a distinct person from them. It's a universal law that all sons share the same nature as its father. Beaver fathers have other beavers and so on.
God operates in the same way. There is only one deity which is God and it is God's nature that separates Him from all that is not God. The Bible teaches that God has a Son and His name is Jesus Christ. Read John 3:16. Jesus Christ does NOT have a biological father because His Father is God. Also the mother of Jesus is Mary who is a human being. Jesus Christ is the one and only person to have two natures, one on His mothers side which is humand and one on His Fathers side which is deity. So the one person of Jesus Christ has two natures. This is not hard too understand.
Regarding "oneness" Pentecostal teaching it is not even close to the Trinity. They are "Modalist" and teach Jesus Christ is God the Father, and He is the Son and Jesus is also the person of the Holy Spirit. Jesus does not play the "role" of being the Father, Son or Holy Spirit. Is there anything else you want to know? I would be happy to address ANY question you might have.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
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Who taught you about understanding the Trinity biker? Here, I'll give you the definition of the Trinity. The doctrine of the Trinity is no an "assumption." It is the normative systematic theology of God in Christianity and is BASED on the fact that the Bible is explicit in telling us tha there is, was and forever will be only ONE God AND the fact that the Bible IDENTIFIES three (and only three) persons as God.
So yes or no biker, is Jesus Christ identified as God in Scripture? Is the Holy Spirit identified as God in Scripture? Obviously we already know the the Father is identified as God. So can you please show me just one verse that states Jesus is God? Can you show just one verse that identifies the Holy Spirit as God? This should not be hard to do since your such an "ole" hand at understanding Scripture?
Now, some others here stated correctly that God is one in nature or essence and thee in persons. This is brought out at John 10:30, read it. Secondly, we are human beings and that is our nature, human. You are not the same person as your father or mother but you are a distinct person from them. It's a universal law that all sons share the same nature as its father. Beaver fathers have other beavers and so on.
God operates in the same way. There is only one deity which is God and it is God's nature that separates Him from all that is not God. The Bible teaches that God has a Son and His name is Jesus Christ. Read John 3:16. Jesus Christ does NOT have a biological father because His Father is God. Also the mother of Jesus is Mary who is a human being. Jesus Christ is the one and only person to have two natures, one on His mothers side which is humand and one on His Fathers side which is deity. So the one person of Jesus Christ has two natures. This is not hard too understand.
Regarding "oneness" Pentecostal teaching it is not even close to the Trinity. They are "Modalist" and teach Jesus Christ is God the Father, and He is the Son and Jesus is also the person of the Holy Spirit. Jesus does not play the "role" of being the Father, Son or Holy Spirit. Is there anything else you want to know? I would be happy to address ANY question you might have.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
So yes or no biker, is Jesus Christ identified as God in Scripture? Is the Holy Spirit identified as God in Scripture? Obviously we already know the the Father is identified as God. So can you please show me just one verse that states Jesus is God? Can you show just one verse that identifies the Holy Spirit as God? This should not be hard to do since your such an "ole" hand at understanding Scripture?
Now, some others here stated correctly that God is one in nature or essence and thee in persons. This is brought out at John 10:30, read it. Secondly, we are human beings and that is our nature, human. You are not the same person as your father or mother but you are a distinct person from them. It's a universal law that all sons share the same nature as its father. Beaver fathers have other beavers and so on.
God operates in the same way. There is only one deity which is God and it is God's nature that separates Him from all that is not God. The Bible teaches that God has a Son and His name is Jesus Christ. Read John 3:16. Jesus Christ does NOT have a biological father because His Father is God. Also the mother of Jesus is Mary who is a human being. Jesus Christ is the one and only person to have two natures, one on His mothers side which is humand and one on His Fathers side which is deity. So the one person of Jesus Christ has two natures. This is not hard too understand.
Regarding "oneness" Pentecostal teaching it is not even close to the Trinity. They are "Modalist" and teach Jesus Christ is God the Father, and He is the Son and Jesus is also the person of the Holy Spirit. Jesus does not play the "role" of being the Father, Son or Holy Spirit. Is there anything else you want to know? I would be happy to address ANY question you might have.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
I think both idealisms are personal agendas based off a translation of a translation.
Here is what the Disciples of JOHN (the Beloved Disciple), IGGY and Polycarp, taught and what I believe 100%
God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bowels,
........... begat Him, emitting Him
........... along with His own wisdom before all things.
but the wisdom [Spirit in this instance is Sophia] of God which was in Him, and
........... His holy Word which was always present with Him.
Now, since John's own Disciples taught this, I believe John taught this!
Provide specific references please.
By the way, Trinitarians believe that Jesus was eternally begotten from the Father, and that the Holy Spirit proceeded from the Father, therefore there is no conflict. However, there has never been a time when the Son or the Spirit did not exist.
So I am not really sure how you feel like anything above violates the Trinity doctrine. Eternal sonship (begettal) and eternal procession are Trinitarian teachings.
There has never been a time when the Father was not the Father., because as God the Son has eternally existed He didn't become the Father when Jesus was incarnated. But I don't think you are saying that either.
By the way, Trinitarians believe that Jesus was eternally begotten from the Father, and that the Holy Spirit proceeded from the Father, therefore there is no conflict. However, there has never been a time when the Son or the Spirit did not exist.
So I am not really sure how you feel like anything above violates the Trinity doctrine. Eternal sonship (begettal) and eternal procession are Trinitarian teachings.
There has never been a time when the Father was not the Father., because as God the Son has eternally existed He didn't become the Father when Jesus was incarnated. But I don't think you are saying that either.
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For this cause, yea and for all things, I praise Thee, I bless Thee, I glorify Thee, through the eternal and heavenly High-priest, Jesus Christ, Thy beloved Son, through whom with Him and the Holy Spirit be glory both now [and ever] and for the ages to come. Amen. —Martyrdom of Polycarp 14:3[21]
Study, therefore, to be established in the doctrines of the Lord and the apostles, that so all things, whatsoever ye do, may prosper both in the flesh and spirit; in faith and love; in the Son, and in the Father, and in the Spirit; in the beginning and in the end; with your most admirable bishop, and the well-compacted spiritual crown of your presbytery, and the deacons who are according to God. Be ye subject to the bishop, and to one another, as Jesus Christ to the Father, according to the flesh, and the apostles to Christ, and to the Father, and to the Spirit; that so there may be a union both fleshly and spiritual. —Epistle to the Magnesians, Chapter 13 [SR][17]
Study, therefore, to be established in the doctrines of the Lord and the apostles, that so all things, whatsoever ye do, may prosper both in the flesh and spirit; in faith and love; in the Son, and in the Father, and in the Spirit; in the beginning and in the end; with your most admirable bishop, and the well-compacted spiritual crown of your presbytery, and the deacons who are according to God. Be ye subject to the bishop, and to one another, as Jesus Christ to the Father, according to the flesh, and the apostles to Christ, and to the Father, and to the Spirit; that so there may be a union both fleshly and spiritual. —Epistle to the Magnesians, Chapter 13 [SR][17]