Does Oneness theology (Modalism) teach a "sock puppet" view of God's nature?

[just_truth]

The three Persons are co-essential meaning that they share the same essence, which is spirit.

Oneness people deny the distinct Personhood of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

So a Oneness person is right in one sense: that God is one in terms of essence, which is spirit. They are wrong in that they deny the distinct Personhood of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

They are like a half-baked cake.

The Oneness is in biblical in illustrating the Godhead, as we believed that the divine Spirit is the Father which is in Jesus, and thesame Spirit in action from the Father who is the Holy Spirit. While Trinitarhreeians describe the Godhead as co-equal, it would mean that the three persons can be interchanged.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

The Oneness is in biblical in illustrating the Godhead, as we believed that the divine Spirit is the Father which is in Jesus, and thesame Spirit in action from the Father who is the Holy Spirit. While Trinitarhreeians describe the Godhead as co-equal, it would mean that the three persons can be interchanged.

I'm not going to respond to you anymore. You guys are incurable.

 

[just_truth]

Look..it's pretty obvious to me that you are intentionally ignoring what I"m saying and shaping it into something that I am not saying.

I am not describing "two spirits". There are not two separate spirits.

There are three distinct Persons. They share the same essence, which is spirit.

I've repeated this over and over again yet you don't seem to understand it.

I think it is because you are trying to interpret this through your Oneness lense, and that's why it does not make sense.

There is only one essence or being, which is spirit, and the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit share this one essence. That is what it means that they are coessential.
I don't think it's productive to discuss this matter with you because you are unable to understand what I am saying.

You and I are two persons. What makes a person is that he has his own consciousness, the consciousness would only possible if there is soul/spirit in that one person. But you are trying to portray that these three persons have only one spirit, seems like a monster Janus.

 

[biker]

The translators are more qualified to judge the translation than some Strong's concordance Oneness guy with no formal training in Greek.

Why call me Oneness?
I have been in the Trinitarian Doctrine my entire life.
I know it as well as you do.
I know it so well that I know the Church Fathers did not call the Divinity Persons.
That was coined by Constantine.
That became a norm after the revised Nicea CREED!

I am pointing out that I have never, for some reason, understood Mark 12 until NOW!

And when I put John 14:10 (Father dwelling in Christ doing the talking/miracles) it makes sense because the Father claims God is only ONE PERSON!

I was very close minded like YOU for 46 years. I've probably read Mark 12 a dozen times. Why now it has finally made sense to me, I don't know. But I am not going to DENY what the FATHER confirms here for a STUPID CREED!

A CREED can't save me! But a CREED can ensure my path to HELL!

 

[biker]

The translators are not adding or taking away from the Word of God.

If they translated the original languages in the manner you are proposing, the English reader wouldn't even be able to read it. There are some inferences that must be made to translate from one language to another.

You have a simplistic view of what translation requires, and you are filtering your opinion about what Scripture should say through your Oneness lense.

Which isn't surprising.

I remember that the cultic guy I followed would scour every weird translation he could find to come up with someone who agreed with him, if the pieces of the puzzle didn't fit together the way he wanted. This is typical cult behavior.

It is obvious that the Holy Spirit is a distinct Person, as he can be grieved, etcetera. Attributes of personhood are inferred to Him.

By the way the cultic guy I followed denied the Personhood of the Holy Spirit as well. He had all kinds of elaborate explanations concerning this.

https://update.gci.org/2013/09/holy-spirit-person-or-power/

Here's an article refuting the idea that the Holy Spirit has no personhood.

Grace Communion hahahahaha

Where I come from there is a Grace College connected to Grace Communion. The Assemblies of God called them an occult.

What you are saying you are even DENYING the Church Fathers views:

God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bowels,
........... begat Him, emitting Him
........... along with His own wisdom before all things.

but the wisdom [Spirit in this instance is Sophia] of God which was in Him, and
........... His holy Word which was always present with Him.

​

 

[Angela53510]

Thank You!

First off, I am using:
Online Greek Bible
greekbible.com
Ancient Greek (biblical / classical) material including: Online texts (accented Greek New Testament), Shopping for printed materials, and Resources for learning and studying Ancient Greek.

It guarantees authentic Greek from when these manuscripts were written.
Then it breaks each verse down from the Greek to any language (English)

And then I am verifying the translation to other greek translators.

So, it breaks down like this:

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

Ἐν = 1) in, by, with etc.

ἀρχῇ = 1) beginning, origin 2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader 3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause 4) the extremity of a thing 4a) of the corners of a sail 5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy 5a) of angels and demons

ἦν = 1) to be, to exist, to happen, to be present

ὁ = 1) the 2) this, that, these, etc.

λόγος = 1) of speech 1a) a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea 1b) what someone has said 1b1) a word 1b2) the sayings of God 1b3) decree, mandate or order 1b4) of the moral precepts given by God 1b5) Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets 1b6) what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim 1c) discourse 1c1) the act of speaking, speech 1c2) the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking 1c3) a kind or style of speaking 1c4) a continuous speaking discourse - instruction 1d) doctrine, teaching 1e) anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative 1f) matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law 1g) the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed 2) its use as respect to the MIND alone 2a) reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating 2b) account, i.e. regard, consideration 2c) account, i.e. reckoning, score 2d) account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment 2e) relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation 2e1) reason would 2f) reason, cause, ground 3) In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah.

καὶ = 1) and, also, even, indeed, but

ὁ = 1) the 2) this, that, these, etc.

λόγος = 1) of speech 1a) a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea 1b) what someone has said 1b1) a word 1b2) the sayings of God 1b3) decree, mandate or order 1b4) of the moral precepts given by God 1b5) Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets 1b6) what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim 1c) discourse 1c1) the act of speaking, speech 1c2) the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking 1c3) a kind or style of speaking 1c4) a continuous speaking discourse - instruction 1d) doctrine, teaching 1e) anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative 1f) matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law 1g) the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed 2) its use as respect to the MIND alone 2a) reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating 2b) account, i.e. regard, consideration 2c) account, i.e. reckoning, score 2d) account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment 2e) relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation 2e1) reason would 2f) reason, cause, ground 3) In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah.

ἦν = 1) to be, to exist, to happen, to be present

πρὸς = 1) to the advantage of 2) at, near, by 3) to, towards, with regard to

τὸν = 1) the 2) this, that, these, etc.

θεόν = 1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities 2) spoken of the only and true God 3a) refers to the things of God 3b) his counsels, interests, things due to him 4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way 4a) God's representative or viceregent 4a1) of magistrates and judges

καὶ = 1) and, also, even, indeed, but

θεόν = 1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities 2) spoken of the only and true God 3a) refers to the things of God 3b) his counsels, interests, things due to him 4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way 4a) God's representative or viceregent 4a1) of magistrates and judges

ἦν = 1) to be, to exist, to happen, to be present

ὁ = 1) the 2) this, that, these, etc.

λόγος = 1) of speech 1a) a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea 1b) what someone has said 1b1) a word 1b2) the sayings of God 1b3) decree, mandate or order 1b4) of the moral precepts given by God 1b5) Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets 1b6) what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim 1c) discourse 1c1) the act of speaking, speech 1c2) the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking 1c3) a kind or style of speaking 1c4) a continuous speaking discourse - instruction 1d) doctrine, teaching 1e) anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative 1f) matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law 1g) the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed 2) its use as respect to the MIND alone 2a) reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating 2b) account, i.e. regard, consideration 2c) account, i.e. reckoning, score 2d) account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment 2e) relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation 2e1) reason would 2f) reason, cause, ground 3) In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah.


Which is broken down to:

Original
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.
Translation
At the beginning was the word, and the word was to God, and God was the word.

Your approach is totally wrong. That is why you have erroneous doctrines. You are also doing eisegesis, reading into the text what YOU want to be in there.

But most important, you have just defined a lot of unrelated words to prove your point. Did you know the most important thing about this verse is the noun cases? You know, nominative, Accusative, genitive and dative! Plus three genders, masculine, feminine and neuter. And singular and plural. So 24 possible uses of nouns. As opposed to one or two basic uses in English. Checking word is not the way you translate from Greek!

In English our word order is very different. It goes:
subject- noun or pronoun,
Predicate which includes:
verb-
object and/or indirect object. And believe me, it is a HUGE difference in this verse.

Greek-nouns which are most important are thrown to the front of the sentence
Verbs- aspect is more important than time, plus a middle tense, and lots and lots of particles, which can be adverbial or adjectival.

And so much more you are missing!

But it will have to be a mystery till tomorrow or maybe Monday. There is internet in the RV Park we are in, but only at the washrooms for each section. So I'll take my computer to my son's house, and hopefully dig up and show you why word for word is no way to translate in Greek. Every language has unique qualities (although German really seems to follow Greek grammar a lot!) and often some huge difference. You just overlaid your knowledge of English on Koine Greek, which technically is a dead language, too!

Grammar and syntax are vital to understand, in order to translate well. So, manana?

 

[just_truth]

.

I'm not going to respond to you anymore. You guys are incurable.

No hope for us to be deceived again to the Trinity doctrine that former we believe and defended.
As you can you see the graph survey of this thread is changing from Yes to No.

 

[biker]

Your approach is totally wrong. That is why you have erroneous doctrines. You are also doing eisegesis, reading into the text what YOU want to be in there.

But most important, you have just defined a lot of unrelated words to prove your point. Did you know the most important thing about this verse is the noun cases? You know, nominative, Accusative, genitive and dative! Plus three genders, masculine, feminine and neuter. And singular and plural. So 24 possible uses of nouns. As opposed to one or two basic uses in English. Checking word is not the way you translate from Greek!

In English our word order is very different. It goes:
subject- noun or pronoun,
Predicate which includes:
verb-
object and/or indirect object. And believe me, it is a HUGE difference in this verse.

Greek-nouns which are most important are thrown to the front of the sentence
Verbs- aspect is more important than time, plus a middle tense, and lots and lots of particles, which can be adverbial or adjectival.

And so much more you are missing!

But it will have to be a mystery till tomorrow or maybe Monday. There is internet in the RV Park we are in, but only at the washrooms for each section. So I'll take my computer to my son's house, and hopefully dig up and show you why word for word is no way to translate in Greek. Every language has unique qualities (although German really seems to follow Greek grammar a lot!) and often some huge difference. You just overlaid your knowledge of English on Koine Greek, which technically is a dead language, too!

Grammar and syntax are vital to understand, in order to translate well. So, manana?

Thank You!

I am aware that the Language structures between English and Greek and most other Languages are structured differently. This is why I am leery about the English Translation to begin with. But I will definitely look into what you have offered to make things clearer. I have no issues with the Greek whatsoever. I have issue with the translation into English.

 

[just_truth]

I call Oneness Pentecostalism "sock-puppet theology". In their view, God is only one Person, but he dons different sock-puppets to interact with mankind. There is one puppeteer, God (YHVH), but the three Persons are simply three different sock-puppets that fit on his hand. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not distinct Persons.

It is the Trinity that appears a "sock-puppet theology" because according to them these three persons each of them has no individual spirit despite having their individual mind and consciousness. That these three persons seem controlled by one spirit, and it appears that these three persons controlled by this one spirit as the puppeteer of these three persons.

 

[just_truth]

Hippolytus and Origen are always quoted their writings by Trinitarians to counter Oneness theology but they were not Trinitarian at all, they were Semi-Arians who do not believe that the Son is in one substance with the Father and that Jesus is inferior to the Father.

 

[just_truth]

These are nonsense questions.

The Triune God is coessential. This means that the three Persons share the same essence, which is spirit.

So, no, they don't have three separate spirits. This would be tri-theism. I believe it could be referred to as Semi-Arianism as well.

But why Trinitarians used the writings of Semi-Arians to defend Trinity?

 

[just_truth]

He certainly was not a modalist.

And his reference to Pope Callixtus as one is blatantly false.

Here’s why

Early scholarship often referred to modalism as “Sabellianism” in reference to the first theologian to bring the view to prominence: Sabellius

Early 3rd century

He was excommunicated by the Church of Rome during the papacy of Callixtus I

For his views on the Trinity

Calixtus was at first inclined to be sympathetic to Sabellius’ teaching but later condemned it and excommunicated Sabellius

 

[just_truth]

Is there any writings that Athanasius confronted the Modalist?
The Athanasian Creed is certainly not the writings of Athanasius. A Latin document composed in the Western Church, the creed was unknown to the Eastern Church until the 12th century. Since the 17th century, scholars have generally agreed that the Athanasian Creed was not written by Athanasius (died 373) but was probably composed in southern France during the 5th century.

 

[just_truth]

It is not true that Modalism was refuted at the Council of Nicea in 325 AD, in fact the Modalism greatly influenced the Council of Nicea in 325 AD.

 

[just_truth]

https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=Got Questions MODALISM&epa=SEARCH_BOX

 

[just_truth]

The Unscriptural Athanasian Creed

 

[just_truth]

The historical evidence proves that the Roman Catholic church developed the full doctrine of Trinity of 3 co-equal and 3 co-eternal divine persons in the late fifth and perhaps the early sixth century.

The irst century Apostles and first apostolic church never used the word "Trinity" and "Three persons" so why does the Roman Catholic and later Protestant Churches believe that we must believe in 3 divine persons of a Trinity doctrine today?

 

[oldethennew]

well JT,
it wasn't there then, and obviously it is not here in the now and present...
as it is written;
'My Father is Greater than I'. 'p-e-r-i-o-d'...

watch out for grammatical 'greek', if you don't, it can get you in some deep 'stuff'...

 

[just_truth]

well JT,
it wasn't there then, and obviously it is not here in the now and present...
as it is written;
'My Father is Greater than I'. 'p-e-r-i-o-d'...

watch out for grammatical 'greek', if you don't, it can get you in some deep 'stuff'...

oldethennew what do you mean?

 

[just_truth]

Athanasian Creed
"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved."

If there is only one Spirit(Holy Ghost) of God, so the Spirit that manifested in the Flesh(Son) is not distinct/separate to the Father's Spirit and Holy Ghost. That's Oneness truth.