Does man have a libertarian free will?

[UnitedWithChrist]

You have an attitude of suspicion. Likely because you cannot trust yourself. You accuse people of doing what your heart desires to do.

Adam had free will to sin against God. Man has a responsibility to choose to receive Christ as Savior because man cannot save himself.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I don't deny Adam's "original righteousness".

His posterity are not new Adams.

There was only one other new Adam, and that was Jesus. He was the second Adam who chose righteousness over sin.

And, unsaved mankind is a slave to sin. That is why they need to be born again, so that they are no longer slaves to sin.

They need a new heart, one of flesh, to replace the stony, dead one that they inherit through Adam.

Read Ephesians 2:1-10. It's the best summary of the gospel message in one set of verses, in my opinion.

And it fully supports my position.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Hearts of stone literal or figurative language?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Obviously the heart of stone isn't literal. In fact, even the word "heart" doesn't refer to the literal heart but refers to the entire being of the man. The phrase is figurative but the figurative speech points toward a definite reality.

You know that I didn't mean a literal heart of stone. Unless you are really dense. Obviously an x ray before regeneration wouldn't show a literal stone in the man's chest.

The man is spiritually dead, and needs to be made alive again, through a spiritual resurrection. The heart of stone is insensitive to sin, and does not desire God whatsoever.

The heart of stone coincides with spiritual circumcision. The man with the heart of flesh has a newfound responsiveness to God and is able to obey and love him. He doesn't have this sensitivity prior to regeneration.

This also relates to the prophecies about mankind having the law of God written on their hearts, on tablets of flesh and not on stone. Paul infers this relationship in 2 Cor 3-4.

Read both chapters. Ask yourself, who is active and who is passive? Who causes the light to shine in man's heart in 2 Cor 4?

In fact, that's one thing free-willers need to do. Ask themselves in any Scripture, is God passive or is man passive? Is God active or is man active?

Who made man alive in Ephesians 2? Did man resurrect himself, or cause it to happen, or did God resurrect him?

 

[notuptome]

I don't deny Adam's "original righteousness".

His posterity are not new Adams.

There was only one other new Adam, and that was Jesus. He was the second Adam who chose righteousness over sin.

And, unsaved mankind is a slave to sin. That is why they need to be born again, so that they are no longer slaves to sin.

They need a new heart, one of flesh, to replace the stony, dead one that they inherit through Adam.

Read Ephesians 2:1-10. It's the best summary of the gospel message in one set of verses, in my opinion.

And it fully supports my position.

You still refuse to see that the stony heart is figurative and not literal. The word of God penetrates the stony heart bringing conviction of sin, righteousness and judgment.

I esteem the value of Ephesians 2 but disagree that it supports your view when it clearly teaches that quickening is at the moment of salvation not before.

The fact remains that Adam chose to enter into sin and we must choose Christ to escape sin. Until you can reconcile your belief with scripture you will err.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Magenta]

If God is a weak, emasculated god then it is possible to thwart his will.

I will agree to that much.

Obviously I don't believe that.

God desires that all men be saved, and yet universalism is considered heretical.

PS~ I am not a universalist

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

You still refuse to see that the stony heart is figurative and not literal. The word of God penetrates the stony heart bringing conviction of sin, righteousness and judgment.

I esteem the value of Ephesians 2 but disagree that it supports your view when it clearly teaches that quickening is at the moment of salvation not before.

The fact remains that Adam chose to enter into sin and we must choose Christ to escape sin. Until you can reconcile your belief with scripture you will err.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I know you believe in decisional regeneration, and underestimate the extent of the damage caused by the Fall. That is the root of the difference between the two theologies.

Free willers believe that man must exercise faith and repentance from his heart of stone, in order to receive a heart of flesh that wants to love and please God. They minimize the damage caused by the Fall. Reformed believers are convicted that God gives the elect a heart of flesh to replace their heart of stone, which produces faith and repentance, and this is necessary due to the radical corruption caused by the Fall.

This is the root of the disagreement. The first view is man-centered and the other is God-centered. The first view leads to glorification of the man, and the second leads to glorification of God.

 

[notuptome]

Obviously the heart of stone isn't literal. In fact, even the word "heart" doesn't refer to the literal heart but refers to the entire being of the man. The phrase is figurative but the figurative speech points toward a definite reality.

You know that I didn't mean a literal heart of stone. Unless you are really dense. Obviously an x ray before regeneration wouldn't show a literal stone in the man's chest.

The man is spiritually dead, and needs to be made alive again, through a spiritual resurrection. The heart of stone is insensitive to sin, and does not desire God whatsoever.

The heart of stone coincides with spiritual circumcision. The man with the heart of flesh has a newfound responsiveness to God and is able to obey and love him. He doesn't have this sensitivity prior to regeneration.

This also relates to the prophecies about mankind having the law of God written on their hearts, on tablets of flesh and not on stone. Paul infers this relationship in 2 Cor 3-4.

Read both chapters. Ask yourself, who is active and who is passive? Who causes the light to shine in man's heart in 2 Cor 4?

In fact, that's one thing free-willers need to do. Ask themselves in any Scripture, is God passive or is man passive? Is God active or is man active?

Who made man alive in Ephesians 2? Did man resurrect himself, or cause it to happen, or did God resurrect him?

Well you are still overstating what should be a simple truth.

John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Clearly God purposed to save Israel and fulfill His promise to send them a Redeemer. Israel chose to reject the Redeemer. God knows mans heart far better than man knows his own heart. God has made provision that all men can believe yet God knows that not all men will believe.

John 1:29 ¶ The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

God desires that all men be saved, and yet universalism is considered heretical.

PS~ I am not a universalist

My position would be that God desires all kinds of men to be saved, Jew and Gentile...and that particular verse is a reference to cultural beliefs at the time.

I don't believe in emasculated gods.

 

[notuptome]

I know you believe in decisional regeneration, and underestimate the extent of the damage caused by the Fall. That is the root of the difference between the two theologies.

Free willers believe that man must exercise faith and repentance from his heart of stone, in order to receive a heart of flesh that wants to love and please God. They minimize the damage caused by the Fall. Reformed believers are convicted that God gives the elect a heart of flesh to replace their heart of stone, which produces faith and repentance, and this is necessary due to the radical corruption caused by the Fall.

This is the root of the disagreement. The first view is man-centered and the other is God-centered. The first view leads to glorification of the man, and the second leads to glorification of God.

You continue to arrive at the wrong conclusion. You continue to assume facts not in evidence. You are so convinced that you are correct that you cannot see how wrong you have become.

Adams choice to sin had the consequence of making man responsible to choose to receive the Redeemer promised by and sent by God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Well you are still overstating what should be a simple truth.

John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Clearly God purposed to save Israel and fulfill His promise to send them a Redeemer. Israel chose to reject the Redeemer. God knows mans heart far better than man knows his own heart. God has made provision that all men can believe yet God knows that not all men will believe.

John 1:29 ¶ The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

He didn't make provision for all to believe.

He elected individuals, who he gave to the Son. The Son atoned for their sins. Then, the Holy Spirit applies the benefits of the atonement to the elect in time.

I have outlined the Scriptures to support this position on other threads.

I will continue to outline them on subsequent threads too.

By the way, the above Scriptures say that being born again is by the will of man, and not the will of God, yet free willers claim that the man himself wills his regeneration through his decision.

Additionally, I believe Jesus died to atone for the sins of the world, in the sense of Jew and Gentile. He didn't die for every single person, though, or those suffering in hell are suffering a massive injustice since Jesus' atonement applied to them.

Again, we have a different view of the atonement. I believe in a real atonement, not a potential atonement. I believe Jesus actually did remove the sins of the elect, and didn't just make it possible for their sins to be forgiven.

This is the essence of limited atonement (particular redemption, actual atonement, etc.).

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

You continue to arrive at the wrong conclusion. You continue to assume facts not in evidence. You are so convinced that you are correct that you cannot see how wrong you have become.

Adams choice to sin had the consequence of making man responsible to choose to receive the Redeemer promised by and sent by God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Correct, and they won't do that without regeneration because they can't exercise faith and repentance from a heart of stone. It requires a heart of flesh.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

You continue to arrive at the wrong conclusion. You continue to assume facts not in evidence. You are so convinced that you are correct that you cannot see how wrong you have become.

Adams choice to sin had the consequence of making man responsible to choose to receive the Redeemer promised by and sent by God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Just admit it. Your hermeneutic is man-centered, and depends on the innate relative goodness of man and his virtue in being able to accept Christ. Mine is God-centered, and has total confidence in God's ability to deliver ANYONE. In fact, he accomplishes the salvaiton of his elect infallibly.

You minimize the damage caused by the Fall in mankind.

As I get older, I see how essential every element of Reformed theology is, in regards to a coherent storyline of the Bible.

Free willers simply don't have a coherent metanarrative to work from. And, their metanarrative is simply not God-honoring.

 

[Magenta]

My position would be that God desires all kinds of men to be saved, Jew and Gentile...and that particular verse is a reference to cultural beliefs at the time.

I don't believe in emasculated gods.

There is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ Jesus... and it seems you add to what the text actually says. God wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. Jesus also said, "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." Was He lifted up? The answer from any Christian should be an unequivocal yes!

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

There is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ Jesus... and it seems you add to what the text actually says. God wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. Jesus also said, "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." Was He lifted up? The answer from any Christian should be an unequivocal yes!

Scripture also says that those who are drawn will come to Him, and they will be risen up on the last day (John 6:44).

In other words, they will be in the resurrection to glorification, and their salvation is assured.

If he draws all men to himself, in the sense that you are claiming, then you SHOULD be a universalist.

However, if he draws all men, in the sense of both Jew and Gentile, then there is no contradiction between John 12:32 and John 6:44.

John 12:32 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

John 6:44 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

So, you can choose to be a universalist or Reformed, but not free-willer, if these verses are both true.

I choose Reformed

 

[Magenta]

Scripture also says that those who are drawn will come to Him, and they will be risen up on the last day (John 6:44).

In other words, they will be in the resurrection to glorification, and their salvation is assured.

If he draws all men to himself, in the sense that you are claiming, then you SHOULD be a universalist.

However, if he draws all men, in the sense of both Jew and Gentile, then there is no contradiction between John 12:32 and John 6:44.

John 12:32 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

John 6:44 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

So, you can choose to be a universalist or Reformed, but not free-willer, if these verses are both true.

I choose Reformed

No, I should not be a universalist, for you promote logical fallacies, two right off the bat I can think of known as excluded middle and also non sequitur. Please pay attention: I have objected to the term "free will" numerous times. Your theology is flawed and so is your perspective. How many times do I have to say it before it registers?

I see the term free will as a misnomer. On the other hand, self will = that which is in opposition to God's will = is all throughout Scripture. Erroneous thinking proliferates in Christendom and is a major problem. Poorly defining the condition is a bad start.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

No, I should not be a universalist, for you promote logical fallacies, two right off the bat I can think of known as excluded middle and also non sequitur. Please pay attention: I have objected to the term "free will" numerous times. Your theology is flawed and so is your perspective. How many times do I have to say it before it registers?

It won't register, because 1) I am not generally instructed by women in correct theology (although I respect some women in that manner as friendly participants in conversation about theological issues) and 2) my position is not incorrect.

You cannot make sense of the two verses, in isolation, without accepting universalism or Reformed theology.

I noticed you didn't offer an alternative.

I would expect a lame attempt to claim that "the last day" isn't talking about a resurrection to glory. But, you didn't try that one

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Read Ephesians 2:1-10. It's the best summary of the gospel message in one set of verses, in my opinion.

And it fully supports my position.

I do not believe Eph2:1-10 supports your position, for in that chpt, "quickened-together-with[<-one word, v.5] Christ" refers to something that also pertained TO HIM (this Grk word also used only elsewhere in Col2:13). This speaks of something that happened WHEN Jesus was resurrected from the dead (rather than at any other point in time one might suggest), for it was "together-with Christ" (that is, WHEN *HE* did!)

[quoting Gaebelein on Eph2]

"After this dark picture of death, ruin and wrath [in the first few verses of this chpt], we read what God has done and does, for all who believe on His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ. “But God who is rich in mercy, for the great love, wherewith He loved us” (Ephesians 2:4). This is the blessed bridge, which leads out of the dark and dreary, hopeless condition. But God! Man is guilty and lost. But God! God now comes in and makes known the riches of His mercy. Yet a righteous, holy God cannot be rich in mercy unless His righteousness is fully met and maintained. His mercy must have for a foundation His righteousness. And this is blessedly the case. He is rich in mercy for the great love wherewith He loved us. He gave His only begotten Son. He made Him who knew no sin, sin for us. He made full atonement on the cross and now God can be rich in mercy. And what does He do with such as we are? Ephesians 2:5-6 tell the blessed story.

"These verses in which we read of the believer’s quickening, his resurrection with Christ and being seated in Christ in the heavenlies, take us back to the time when our blessed Savior Lord was quickened and raised from the dead and seated in glory. It is plain what God did for Him, who died on the cross, He has done for all, who believe on His Son. Many Christians are ignorant of this great truth, while others have difficulty in grasping it. Yet it is quite Simple. Every Christian believes that when the Lord Jesus suffered on the cross He bore our sins in His own body on the tree. With the Apostle Paul every believer is entitled to say in looking back to the cross, “He loved me, He gave Himself for me.” We know all our sins were paid for by Him; all the punishment we deserved fell upon Him, our substitute. In Him we died. All this happened when we were not in existence at all. The sins He bore were not yet committed. God knew all about us and all about our sins and shame, the punishment we deserved, and His ever-blessed Son took all upon Himself. In the same sense God hath quickened us with Christ, raised us up and seated us in Him, when He did this for His Son our Lord Jesus Christ. This is simple, yet so wonderful and deep, that it is incomprehensible. It was all done for us, who believe, when it was done for Him. God in His marvelous counsels in redemption has associated us with Christ. He has made all, who believe on Him, sharers of His life and nature; He brings us into the same relationship as sons, and finally into the same glory and inheritance. Let us bear in mind that all this was done for us in Christ. He is the first one who was quickened, raised up and exalted in glory, and associated with Him are all His members; we share it with Him.

"And all this becomes our blessed portion by faith in Jesus Christ. As we believe on Him, we are quickened, that is, we receive life, even eternal life and are saved by grace. Then we are risen with Him. We are now in Him, risen from the dead, the sons of God. Likewise in Christ (not with [in a literal sense] Christ) we are seated in the heavenly places. Now it is “in Him”; when He comes again we shall be “with Him” and share His glory. Here we have the summit of Christian position. We are not along representatively, but also virtually seated in Christ in the highest glory."

--Gaebelein, Commentary on Ephesians 2 [source: BibleHub; end quoting; bold and underline mine; bracketed inserts mine; parenthesis original]


_____

Col2:13 - "And you being dead in the trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our trespasses"

 

[Magenta]

It won't register, because 1) I am not generally instructed by women in correct theology (although I respect some women in that manner as friendly participants in conversation about theological issues) and 2) my position is not incorrect.

You cannot make sense of the two verses, in isolation, without accepting universalism or Reformed theology.

I noticed you didn't offer an alternative.

I would expect a lame attempt to claim that "the last day" isn't talking about a resurrection to glory. But, you didn't try that one

You do not need to be instructed in theology to accept the FACT that I reject the notion of free will, as I consider it a misnomer.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

You do not need to be instructed in theology to accept the FACT that I reject the notion of free will, as I consider it a misnomer.

Whatever

The fundamental objection I have is folks claiming that a heart of stone can generate faith and repentance. It can't and that's why "you must be born again".

The heart of stone must be replaced by a heart of flesh before you can even see the kingdom of God.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

EDIT to go along with my last post: "... that they may receive [active] forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those having been sanctified [perfect participle] by faith in Me."


____________

"8 To me, the very least of all saints, was given this grace: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ 9 and to enlighten all what is the administration of the mystery having been hidden from the ages in God, the One having created all things, 10 so that now through the church the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to the purpose of the ages, which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and access in confidence, by faith in Him."

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Again...who stirred up the Assyrians to attack Israel in Isaiah 10?
Who stirred up Pul and Tilgath-Pilneser to attack Israel in 1 Chronicles 5:26?

You didn’t answer these.

Again @notuptome

Care to answer these two questions? Please?